128 replies to this topic

[silver]

Mika Salo was commentating French GP for the Finnish TV station and he also said few (maybe interresting?) things about Alonso´s driving style. According to Salo Alonso's driving style differs from all the other drivers' driving styles.

"Alonso always applies full lock straight away, not gradually and carefully like other drivers."

According to Salo Alonso's rough style might cause him problems when car doesn't behave like he expects it to behave.

"Alonso's lets the car to understeer into the corner. Front does all the work and rear just follows. If cars doesn't behave like he wants it to behave he is in trouble since it starts sliding rear tyres. That happened in Monaco."

According to Salo Renault has optimised there car to Alonso's driving and it hurts Fisichella.

"It works beautifully on that car but it would be interresting to see Alonso on some other car since it is very difficult for Fisichella to drive that car."

"Renault choses there tyres for races based on Alonso's style and Fisichella just must cope with them even though he might be a lot faster with other tyres."

[Melbourne Park]

Before the season started, there were reports than understeer allows best use of the tyres. In other words, and understeering car will allow a softer compound, for an equivelent tyre wear factor. Hence understeer is faster with the one tyre rule.

So, maybe Alonso is driving according to what Michelin / Renault demand, and he is just better able to cope with it.

[Mauseri]

Originally posted by Melbourne Park
Before the season started, there were reports than understeer allows best use of the tyres. In other words, and understeering car will allow a softer compound, for an equivelent tyre wear factor. Hence understeer is faster with the one tyre rule.

So, maybe Alonso is driving according to what Michelin / Renault demand, and he is just better able to cope with it.

I doubt it. They cant demand drivers to drive like Alonso does. And Alonso drove like this also before this season. Look Kimi he is fast and made even less bad for his tyres than Alonso again. It depends to how the car is constructed to drive and Alonso is the established Renault established driver who had a word or two to say of the car.

Indeed it would be fun to see how Alonso would do in some other car but I guess he would be fine. His drivingstyle may be peculiar but it works. Did he once fight Sauber and BAR with Minardi in Suzuka and barely finishing a lap down

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by micra_k10

I doubt it. They cant demand drivers to drive like Alonso does. And Alonso drove like this also before this season. Look Kimi he is fast and made even less bad for his tyres than Alonso again. It depends to how the car is constructed to drive and Alonso is the established Renault established driver who had a word or two to say of the car. ...

But maybe JPM can't keep his tyres together as well as Kimi.

The statements about tyre wear are logical. The opposite of understeer is oversteer. Oversteer has the driver balancing the car on the throttle much more than an understeering car. But steering more with the throttle increases tyre slippage at the rear. This would not be a problem if the tyre compounds were allowed to be different front to back, but they are not. Logically, understeer will promote a softer overall compound for the same tyre life. A driver who can cope with it, will therefore be faster. Alonso was quick before the one tyre rule came out. It is still possable that he can drive a car with oversteer quickly.

[logic]

Originally posted by silver
"Alonso always applies full lock straight away, not gradually and carefully like other drivers."

It was so funny when Salo told this story while watching Alonso driving throught chicane and some corners. "Look at him now, he uses full steering always and let's rear follow the nose" as TV feed showed Alonso steering normally like anyone
I remember that in very slow corners Alonso does this overly understeering driving, his car is very rear-weighted. But I think using full steer is not best, because tyre has best grip in certsin slip angle.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I think he just runs a different steering ratio than other people so he has to turn the steering wheel more to get the tires to turn the same amount, and since he has to turn the wheel so much more, he has to do it more quickly and it looks more abrupt.

[Racer Joe]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
I think he just runs a different steering ratio than other people so he has to turn the steering wheel more to get the tires to turn the same amount, and since he has to turn the wheel so much more, he has to do it more quickly and it looks more abrupt.

If that is true (and it sounds entirely plausible by the way), then I wonder why Salo didn't think of it.

[Ross Stonefeld]

On top of that, he could be the only guy really taking the corner properly and turning in at the correct turn-in point instead of the incredibly early turn ins most idiot drivers take. So normal-to-late turn in + low ratio steering = lots of wheel movement.

[Racer Joe]

How many guys aim for significantly earlier than the geometricaly apex? I know about Schumi, Ralf, Trulli and DC.

[prty]

It looks like he also have some brake dust in his brain

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by Racer Joe
How many guys aim for significantly earlier than the geometricaly apex? I know about Schumi, Ralf, Trulli and DC.

Just about all of them, some just more early than others. Massa's one of the worst offenders ive seen.

[Racer Joe]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld


Just about all of them, some just more early than others. Massa's one of the worst offenders ive seen.

In that case, wouldn't there be a reason for it rather than just stupidity?

[Ross Stonefeld]

Drivers arent really taught the proper way to drive in their careers, and there really arent people who can teach them. Its rare to have engineers that can really help the driver pilot the car better, especially in this era of engineers having book experience and not racing experience. Most unfortunately your racing driver just doesnt want to learn or do things a different way.

[Racer Joe]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Drivers arent really taught the proper way to drive in their careers, and there really arent people who can teach them. Its rare to have engineers that can really help the driver pilot the car better, especially in this era of engineers having book experience and not racing experience. Most unfortunately your racing driver just doesnt want to learn or do things a different way.

But all of them making the same type of error?

[Mauseri]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
I think he just runs a different steering ratio than other people so he has to turn the steering wheel more to get the tires to turn the same amount, and since he has to turn the wheel so much more, he has to do it more quickly and it looks more abrupt.

I don't think that's the case. And from what I've observed Salo is right about Alonso. Alonso clearly punishes the car to understeer. And he turns wheel more than nose can take. But not so much that it would waste his tyres.

Some drivers go trough corners with balance but not Alonso. I think he goes trough corner "wheel at max lock" and adjusting speed. And now I mean tighter corner where he has to turn, not some chicane.

[Double Apex]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Drivers arent really taught the proper way to drive in their careers, and there really arent people who can teach them. Its rare to have engineers that can really help the driver pilot the car better, especially in this era of engineers having book experience and not racing experience. Most unfortunately your racing driver just doesnt want to learn or do things a different way.

But how come all these racing drivers who don't know how to drive properly make it to the pinnacle of motorsport and even manage to do well there?

[Ross Stonefeld]

Well lets look at football/soccer. Take away all the coaches and all the training and all that. Just have them play 'naturally'. The best guys will still get through.

[Racer Joe]

Originally posted by micra_k10

I don't think that's the case. And from what I've observed Salo is right about Alonso. Alonso clearly punishes the car to understeer. And he turns wheel more than nose can take. But not so much that it would waste his tyres.

I am not sure about his comment re: Monaco. That sounded a lot like trying to fit evidence around a theory. Fisi was in similar if not greater trouble as well.

The rest sounded quite reasonable, though I suspect there was a lot more to it than what he said. The cause and effect is not quite as straightforward as that I don't think.

[karlth]

Alonso more than any in my opinion drives like a GoKart driver. His style is not that unsimilar to Michael's.

They throw the car into the corner and thus an understeering car before the apex doesn't really slow them down, unlike the drivers who prefer classic lines (Piquet, Montoya).

[Racer Joe]

I am not sure how Michael's style is similar to Alonso's. Sure he has superb entry speed, but IIRC he turns in on the brakes with a slightly oversteering car to enable the slight excess of speed to rotate the car slightly at apex for an ideal line of exit. Doesn't seem much like Alonso. *shrug*

[Mauseri]

Originally posted by Racer Joe
I am not sure about his comment re: Monaco. That sounded a lot like trying to fit evidence around a theory. Fisi was in similar if not greater trouble as well.

Yes, I don't think it's Alonsos style is too hard for reartyres, you would except Fisi to have more trouble if there is any.

[Mauseri]

Originally posted by Racer Joe
I am not sure how Michael's style is similar to Alonso's. Sure he has superb entry speed, but IIRC he turns in on the brakes with a slightly oversteering car to enable the slight excess of speed to rotate the car slightly at apex for an ideal line of exit. Doesn't seem much like Alonso. *shrug*

I second that.

[Racer Joe]

Originally posted by micra_k10

I second that.

How many times did I use the word "slight" in one sentence?

That's what you get with chopping and changing and then not proof-reading.

[karlth]

Originally posted by Racer Joe
I am not sure how Michael's style is similar to Alonso's. Sure he has superb entry speed, but IIRC he turns in on the brakes with a slightly oversteering car to enable the slight excess of speed to rotate the car slightly at apex for an ideal line of exit.

Both Michael and Alonso are essentially going sideways towards the apex. Both unsettle the rear of the car to ease the directional change and thus kill the effect of an understeering car.

I am not familar with how exactly they apply the car's controls but the result looks very similar.

[Racer Joe]

Originally posted by karlth


Both Michael and Alonso are essentially going sideways towards the apex. Both unsettle the rear of the car to ease the directional change and thus kill the effect of an understeering car.

I am not familar with how exactly they apply the car's controls but the result looks very similar.

Fair enough.

[AD]

Ok I'm no expert on this, but regarding turning in early to corners...isn't it something to do with maximising the friction circle?

[Spunout]

Before putting Salo down (who DOES know more about F1 than know-it-all posters here) you have to remember some of the information he gives comes from the other MTV3 commentator, Heikki Kovalainen. He propably knows something about Renault, eh? According to Salo Fisi has been asked to change his style closer to Alonso but so far it hasn´t happened.

Personally I agree Alonso has very unique style, it isn´t all about steering ratio. It looks strange but clearly works well. And notice he doesn´t apply "full lock" for long but starts to release the steering immediately after turning in. If you want to see an example of getting the wheels straigth ASAP, observe Jenson Button. His technique is fantastic to watch.

The comments about some guys turning in too early were interesting. MS, DC, RS, JT, FM are all doing it wrong? In such case Mika Häkkinen had brilliant style, as he turned in REALLY late. My guess is this is mostly related to the characteristics of individual style and setup, even though I agree even at highest levels some stylistic hiccups may occur...

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by AD
Ok I'm no expert on this, but regarding turning in early to corners...isn't it something to do with maximising the friction circle?

It doesnt maximise the friction circle or the line through the corner, despite what Peter Windsor's driving for dummies would have you believe.

[bern@rd]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
I think he just runs a different steering ratio than other people so he has to turn the steering wheel more to get the tires to turn the same amount, and since he has to turn the wheel so much more, he has to do it more quickly and it looks more abrupt.

Haven't you seen Alosno drive? His driving style is dramatically different from anything on the field. It's ugly but it seems to work on the renault.
What race was it last year where he had that battle with Button for many many corners? There you could really see the different styles, Button smooth and alonso very hard and edgy, completely different driving lines and even braking points.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Which can be as simple as steering ratios. JV, during some of his BAR years, ran a lock that literally made it look like he was driving a tobogan he had to turn the wheel so little.

[xype]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld

Just about all of them, some just more early than others. Massa's one of the worst offenders ive seen.

Since I have no experience with "racing" or "driving fast" (but for the odd kart race), I never really looked at those things. How would one observe such "style differencies"? Since you mention Massa, and I am a JV "fan", how would I go about comparing these two? You say Massa if one extreme, so it should be easy to spot the difference to JV (unless JV is doing it just as "wrong"), right?

And are there ways in which driving a cart, a salon car and the F1 differ greatly, or is the "turn in as late as you can" something that holds true in all series?

(Yeah, you can tell I'm always the last one at the kart track...;))

[karlth]

Originally posted by AD
Ok I'm no expert on this, but regarding turning in early to corners...isn't it something to do with maximising the friction circle?

No I think it has more to do with turning the car quickly by sliding the rear, i.e. exceeding the friction circle. Something which is very important in GoKarts as they have a single rear axle and I guess in F1 because it eliminates corner entry understeer.

The dangers of this method are that if the rear slide is too big you will lose speed and of course it should increase the wear of the rear tyres. Also if corner entry understeer isn't present a classic line should produce a considerably higher exit speed.

[bern@rd]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Which can be as simple as steering ratios. JV, during some of his BAR years, ran a lock that literally made it look like he was driving a tobogan he had to turn the wheel so little.

I'm not talking about the steering wheel. I'm talking about the difference in racing style you see from the race cameras.
Haven't you seen alonso has considerably different racing lines comparing to the other drivers? This has nothing to do with steering ratios making it look like he turns much, because he does turn a lot, it is evident from the outcar cameras and the helicopter angle.

EDIT: spelling...

[Racer Joe]

I still find it hard to believe a whole bunch of top drivers are doing the same thing wrong.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by bern@rd

I'm not talking about the steering wheel. I'm talking about the difference in racing style you see from the race cameras.
Haven't you seen alonso has considerably different racing lines comparing to the other drivers? This has nothing to do with steering ratios making it look like he turns much, because he does turn a lot, it is evident from the outcar camneras and the helicopter angle.

His racing lines dont very that much, certainly no more than anyone elses. Everyone focuses on his hand movements, not his car placement.

[karlth]

Originally posted by Racer Joe
I still find it hard to believe a whole bunch of top drivers are doing the same thing wrong.

By wrong do you mean by not throwing the car into the corner?

It is still a different style of driving. I expect that if the car does not have corner understeer, possibly dependent on setup, tyres, track, etc, then the classic method would be quicker.

[bern@rd]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld


His racing lines dont very that much, certainly no more than anyone elses. Everyone focuses on his hand movements, not his car placement.

I don't think I said his racing lines vary, or did I? He's a pro. Not a cart racer.
And no doubt about that last sentence.

[Racer Joe]

Originally posted by karlth


By wrong do you mean by not throwing the car into the corner?

It is still a different style of driving. I expect that if the car does not have corner understeer, possibly dependent on setup, tyres, track, etc, then the classic method would be quicker.

No, I mean what Ross was saying about the early turn-ins.

[sek]

Originally posted by Spunout
Before putting Salo down (who DOES know more about F1 than know-it-all posters here) you have to remember some of the information he gives comes from the other MTV3 commentator, Heikki Kovalainen. He propably knows something about Renault, eh? According to Salo Fisi has been asked to change his style closer to Alonso but so far it hasn´t happened.

Yep, I also can't find a rational reason why Heikki would talk crap about this.

He's tested several times with them and supposedly has seen a thing or two and maybe had a word with fisi.

If it were just about steering ratio, fisi would have had easier time on first half of the season.

Salo also mentioned how Alonso drove the last chicane differently (rugged) than anyone else.

[Oho]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld


His racing lines dont very that much, certainly no more than anyone elses. Everyone focuses on his hand movements, not his car placement.

If Alonso is latish turn in driver does it note make him a bit like Häkkinen whom I also suppose turned in rather late and was all but totally off brakes at turn in. I assume this aspect in Mikas driving made him vulnerable to changing conditions in particular when going from dry to wet, wonder if we would see the same with Alonso if there was a race with intermitten drizzle or rain. Turning in early it appears to me provides the driver a bit more to play with.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Thats the basic theory behind the early turn in imo. Its more consistent. You've got more wiggle room and adjustment time from turn in to apex because you're still putting in steering as you go in so you can put in more or less as you need it. It garuntees you get to the apex, even if you get there too fast for the corner. Late turn in, if you dont get it right, you've missed the line through the corner the moment you turned in.

I didnt come out of karting so I was taught 'proper' driving and on top of that had a later than ideal turn in so I tended to have all my problems on corner entry, but when it worked had pretty good trap speeds. It definately doesnt work in the lower powered cars I started in where momentum is everything. It worked a lot better in one one off Formula Audi race because I was able to get the power down nicely, problem was I was usually wide of the apex. I was generally pretty **** in the wet (also due to inexperience and uncomfort in the rain) because I'd regularly go too wide in the corner, past the apex I was always fine.

[kismet]

Assuming one were to compile a "How To Drive A Modern Formula 1 Car" DVD, whose onboard shots would one use? And whose would be filed under "No, no, no"?

[Ross Stonefeld]

Jenson, and Trulli in this year's Toyota both have very nice very precise very smooth styles. Jarno drives very 'properly' of, imo, trying to use the car to corner and picking up the gas at the exit. Michael beacuse he's Michael. Kimi I watch a lot but I cant really see anything in his driving thats anything other than fast. There's nothing particular about it.

Sepang is the track every year that I think you can see the changes, because it has those really slow corners that they absolutely fling the cars into and pick up the throttle almost at the very exit. The 2nd turn (after the first chicane complex) and the corner just before the end of sector 2 are ideal. Thats where you can really see where Massa turns in super early, Webber tries to be Michael, Jarno uses every bit of the corner radius, etc.

Michael is just amazing to watch on the onboards because the car is doing so many things at once.

[Spunout]

The rain thingy Ross mentioned was very good point indeed - I, being one of the early apex offenders (most of the time anyway) have noticed it, too. It makes racing at rain easier because you have bigger room for error plus the need to change your style is smaller.

Mika Häkkinen was great example - fast at rain but changing conditions hurt him because he had to change his style (braking on painted lines, oversteery setup, turning in REALLY late) completely. Still, I loved to watch him and it is unfortunate we never had cockpit cameras showing how he used the pedals.

[logic]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Most unfortunately your racing driver just doesnt want to learn or do things a different way.

Maybe difference between the best and the rest is there. The best drivers want to learn and try more while the rest just drives like they have always done and think they are best.

Of course if someone already has the best driving style, there is nothing to learn

[jokuvaan]

I got the feeling that Salo picked this from Mansell's comments about Alonso. Because didnt he say that Kovalainen surely knows this set-up dilemma but cant talk about it.

Kovalainen has a diary on MTV3 website, last he talked that Alonso adjust differential gear, TC and electronics overall and makes the final laptime difference from there.

[fasttrack]

The best thread in a long time. Let's hope the fanboys keep missing it. And thanks Ross, Spunout, and many others for sharing your racing experiences! My own experience is very limited & amateurish, but hey, why not share it too?

I for myself have driven only gokarts, which is a really limited experience... All that I can say is that I experimented a lot, having watched the best racers at the local kart club with all my attention. The last thing that one wants in a indoor gokart is rear wheel spin - it kills the momentum, and at 5 HP, one wants to avoid it at all costs. In my case, it was not possible to choose or prepare the cars, which made things even harder -- sometimes you get a oversteery car, sometimes a understeery one.

At the beginning, I really could not cope with a understeery car. I used to throw the car in the turn as late as possible. There are a number of problems with this approach; it's fairly easy to miss the apex if anything goes wrong (for example, get some dirty on the front tires, and you're gone!). So I had to learn how to handle understeer, and that meant learning to turn in earlier. The problem is that gokarts don't respond very well to throttling blips, which (I assume) would make it easier... But anyway, I learned to adapt to it, and the times improved considerably. Another thing worth mentioning: at least in gokarts, late turn in seem to make one vulnerable to attacks on the inside line... turning in earlier seems to be best as it effectively discourages some overtaking moves. (Well, that's my experience. I said it was limited :-) )

Now for the topic of the thread... I wonder if anyone has good videos of individual drivers racing at some well-known turns, in such a way as to make it possible to 'plot' the line taken by each driver. Perhaps some image processing could be used... It would be nice to be able to see a turn, let's say, at Suzuka, and compare the lines.

[marcotulio]

nice topic indeed

[Pep]

Originally posted by sek


Salo also mentioned how Alonso drove the last chicane differently (rugged) than anyone else.

Before every race Alonso talks exclusively to spanish TV and explains things about the circuit (the best place for overtaking, the things he likes about it, some anecdotes, etc.). They always ask him about "the trick of the circuit". He said that the last chicane was a good place to gain time, and that the trick was to cut abruptly the chicane, grab the wheel very firmly and with strenght and pray and hope to land well. He said that in the quali lap he cut the chicane more than in the race because otherwise you would be punishing the car too much.

[Pep]

BTW, I don't really see big differences in high speed corners, but Alonso surely turns in the wheel more than any other in many slow corners. And also more "suddenly".

Take a look at the onboards of Spain in turn 5 or 10 (La Caixa).