After a recent conversation about Ferrari teamamtes in another thread, I would like to know what you guys think about the following. When should Teamamates start to back each other? At what point should a driver become the no.2?
If down to the last race of the season and there is one point between teammates, should they be allowed to race each other and the same question again but if it is Rubens and Michael??
Should teammates fight each other???
Started by
Linus27
, Aug 11 2000 12:48
29 replies to this topic
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#2
Max Torque
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Posted 11 August 2000 - 12:54
Of course teamates should fight each other! It shouldn't be any other way.
I agree though that if the championship is at it's end and there are only 2-3 races left, with one going for the title and the other one not (mathimatically please, not theoretically), then it would be logical and in the spirit of good faith, to play second fiddle.
I agree though that if the championship is at it's end and there are only 2-3 races left, with one going for the title and the other one not (mathimatically please, not theoretically), then it would be logical and in the spirit of good faith, to play second fiddle.
#3
Nomad
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Posted 11 August 2000 - 13:21
This is F1, not CART, and traditionally teammates work for the good of the team. This means they do not fight each other (see 50years of F1 history). Every team has a number one driver and although these days it is not announced because that would be politically incorrect.
If you don't like it quit moaning or go and watch something else. Stop trying to change F1, it's been wonderful for years, and if you don't like it then it isn't for you.
If you don't like it quit moaning or go and watch something else. Stop trying to change F1, it's been wonderful for years, and if you don't like it then it isn't for you.
#4
RiverRunner
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Posted 11 August 2000 - 13:24
Ask Barry Green.
The Dario and Paul battles have cost him a few points and buches of parts over the last coupla years.
Without the Kool Team Green accident last year Dario wudda had the championship instead of Juan,also at one point Paul won a race late in the season when he was out of contetion for the championship and Green didn't give the team orders to let Dario by for the win and a definite championship. In retrospect,I'm nearly positive he wouldn't do that again.
PS I like F-1 too!
The Dario and Paul battles have cost him a few points and buches of parts over the last coupla years.
Without the Kool Team Green accident last year Dario wudda had the championship instead of Juan,also at one point Paul won a race late in the season when he was out of contetion for the championship and Green didn't give the team orders to let Dario by for the win and a definite championship. In retrospect,I'm nearly positive he wouldn't do that again.
PS I like F-1 too!
#5
Max Torque
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Posted 11 August 2000 - 13:28
The only reason why in CART it's everyone for himself, is because there isn't a constructors championship. F1 is NOT what you say. Imagine a fully dominant team in F1 (McLaren circa 1990) and tell me how you would've liked it if the team said who would win or not! It would be the most pointless sport in the world. I suggest YOU move on to other spectacles than trying ruining this one.
#6
Max Torque
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Posted 11 August 2000 - 13:38
If I'm not mistaken, the Team KOOL Green guys did it again on the last race!
#7
Nomad
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Posted 11 August 2000 - 13:41
Max
You picked the exception that proves the rule.
Now I suggest you look back and find the myriad of equal teammates that you think existed in F1.
You picked the exception that proves the rule.
Now I suggest you look back and find the myriad of equal teammates that you think existed in F1.
#8
Max Torque
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Posted 11 August 2000 - 13:49
OK, I agree that there are times that there's been a No1 and No2 in teams. Many times. But do you actually think that it is the best arrangement? The topic asks for your opinion. I voiced mine, I gather YOUR opinion is that it should be otherwise just because some teams like profit instead of loving racing.
#9
magic
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Posted 11 August 2000 - 14:04
teammatecompetition is the best competition.
#10
Nomad
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Posted 11 August 2000 - 14:26
Originally posted by Max Torque
, I gather YOUR opinion is that it should be otherwise just because some teams like profit instead of loving racing.
Don't completely make-up what my opinion is, that's a very low form of debate. Or perhaps you misunderstood
Here is my opinion put simply for you .
F1 is a team sport. (always has been)
Throughout the history of F1 the norm is for number one and two drivers.
This arrangement has worked well.F1 has become popular.
To change this norm is to change F1 into something it isn't.
If you want to see team mates racing each other then you have the option to watch CART.
I don't want my favourite sport ruined for the sake of people who could get what they want elsewhere.
#11
DangerMouse
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Posted 11 August 2000 - 14:29
Until I see Schumi race a decent teammate for the title I will never consider him anything other than a very good driver.
Mansell, Senna, Prost, Clark, Hill (both), JV, Surtees, Fangio, Hunt, Piquiet etc etc. all won WDCs battling against their team-mates as well as the rest of the field - they are true champions.
MS is a pretender.
Mansell, Senna, Prost, Clark, Hill (both), JV, Surtees, Fangio, Hunt, Piquiet etc etc. all won WDCs battling against their team-mates as well as the rest of the field - they are true champions.
MS is a pretender.
#12
5150
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Posted 11 August 2000 - 14:32
Hell yeah teammates should battle each other!!!!!
They're just two competitors battleing it out like everybody else on the track.
Yeeez guys, the guy that you want to beat the most as a racing driver is your teammate, then all others......of course just try not to run into him.
They're just two competitors battleing it out like everybody else on the track.
Yeeez guys, the guy that you want to beat the most as a racing driver is your teammate, then all others......of course just try not to run into him.
#13
Max Torque
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Posted 11 August 2000 - 14:35
Sorry Nomad, trying to reply quickly I didn't type what I meant.
I wanted to say: I gather YOUR opinion is that it should be otherwise. Those teams like profit instead of loving racing. That's why they have No1 and No2.
That's what I meant.
And yes, I love CART and watch it fanatically, but still F1 is the best for me.
Still, you haven't told me if you like it like it is. Wouldn't it be better if teamates would go all out? That would let us see who trully is the best.
I wanted to say: I gather YOUR opinion is that it should be otherwise. Those teams like profit instead of loving racing. That's why they have No1 and No2.
That's what I meant.
And yes, I love CART and watch it fanatically, but still F1 is the best for me.
Still, you haven't told me if you like it like it is. Wouldn't it be better if teamates would go all out? That would let us see who trully is the best.
#14
Linus27
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Posted 11 August 2000 - 15:35
What I asked is what do people think, not a comparison between Cart and F1. I want to know what YOU think should happen.
Nomad
I don't think there ever has been a No1 and a No.2 driver in F1 as at set rule. Prost and Senna were equal at McLaren, Hill and schumacher were even at Jordan. Fizzy and Schuey were even at Jordon. Alesi and Herbert were even at Sauber. Alesi and Berger were even at Ferrari and Benetton. Irvine and Rubens were even at Jordon. Hill and Villeneuve were even at Williams. Mansell and Piquet at Willams and the list is endless. When I watch F1, I like to see racing, at the moment, I am enjoying Button giving Ralf a run for the money. What I am not enjoying is seeing Rubens not allowed to overtake his teammate, ala Canada and Melbourne.
Like I say, I want to know what other people think of teammates fighting not what has happened in the past or other formula's.
Nomad
I don't think there ever has been a No1 and a No.2 driver in F1 as at set rule. Prost and Senna were equal at McLaren, Hill and schumacher were even at Jordan. Fizzy and Schuey were even at Jordon. Alesi and Herbert were even at Sauber. Alesi and Berger were even at Ferrari and Benetton. Irvine and Rubens were even at Jordon. Hill and Villeneuve were even at Williams. Mansell and Piquet at Willams and the list is endless. When I watch F1, I like to see racing, at the moment, I am enjoying Button giving Ralf a run for the money. What I am not enjoying is seeing Rubens not allowed to overtake his teammate, ala Canada and Melbourne.
Like I say, I want to know what other people think of teammates fighting not what has happened in the past or other formula's.
#15
P1 Pyrsol
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Posted 11 August 2000 - 15:49
Linus,
Are you equally upset that Mika was told to back off in Brazil?
Are you equally upset that Mika was told to back off in Brazil?
#16
Ricardo F1
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Posted 11 August 2000 - 16:06
At the end of the day in F1 yes they should try and race each other, but at the same time taking each other out (as Dario and Tracy did the other day) is just insanely daft. Because of the way F1 has evolved into this 'overtake at pit stops' style of racing there is no danger in same team drivers doing the same. Fast out lap, fast in lap, quicker stop, come out in front. Dull, maybe, but as a team it's a damn sight better for your drivers to do that than having the Alesi / Heidfeld nonsense.
#17
Linus27
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Posted 11 August 2000 - 16:34
P1
Let me check the race out again and I will get back to you as I did not know he was asked to or can't remember he was asked to. Fill me in a bit more as I really can't remember what the story is behind this. I will give you a reply but I can't remember this one.
Let me check the race out again and I will get back to you as I did not know he was asked to or can't remember he was asked to. Fill me in a bit more as I really can't remember what the story is behind this. I will give you a reply but I can't remember this one.
#18
jimm
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Posted 11 August 2000 - 16:47
The fastest, best guy on a given day should win. The only time teammates should back off is at the end of the race when they are running 1-2 AND it is obvious that one is clearly quicker or 2 at the very end of the season (1 -2 races left) and only 1 driver has a shot at the championship.
Besides I am not sure it really works to help the team. Since 1986 (15 years) only 2 times has the clear #1 driver type team beaten a team were the teammates were rivals for the WDC: '86 and '95. The last 4 years the WDC has been one by teams that let the drivers race. Add to that '87, '88 and '89 and it seems that #1 may not be as much help as it would seem
Besides I am not sure it really works to help the team. Since 1986 (15 years) only 2 times has the clear #1 driver type team beaten a team were the teammates were rivals for the WDC: '86 and '95. The last 4 years the WDC has been one by teams that let the drivers race. Add to that '87, '88 and '89 and it seems that #1 may not be as much help as it would seem
#19
aross
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Posted 11 August 2000 - 22:06
Hey,
If you want to keep fans interested, you'll let the buggers fight!
Right down to the last lap. In fact, if you could figure out how to do it, you should penalize any driver for holding station.
Some of the best racing these days has gone down to the wire. These days, you hardly ever see anyone looking to stick a wheel in on the last ten laps for fear of losing points.
Maybe they should give extra points for a pass in the last ten laps, like the three point rule in basketball! That's just a joke, but you see what I mean.
If you want to keep fans interested, you'll let the buggers fight!
Right down to the last lap. In fact, if you could figure out how to do it, you should penalize any driver for holding station.
Some of the best racing these days has gone down to the wire. These days, you hardly ever see anyone looking to stick a wheel in on the last ten laps for fear of losing points.
Maybe they should give extra points for a pass in the last ten laps, like the three point rule in basketball! That's just a joke, but you see what I mean.
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#20
selena
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Posted 11 August 2000 - 22:13
They can compete with each other but if one of them is quite ahead in the points, then team orders should come in. After all, F1 is a team sport.
#21
HB?!
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Posted 11 August 2000 - 22:21
If the cars of a given team have the one-two positions in the race, and are clearly able to keep the rest behind them, then there is no reason for the teamates to battle it out. F1 is a TEAM sport after all.
#22
Linus27
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Posted 12 August 2000 - 01:54
HB
So if the the guy behind is leading in points to the guy in front, you still think they should not fight???
So if the the guy behind is leading in points to the guy in front, you still think they should not fight???
#23
Agi
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Posted 12 August 2000 - 02:17
Yes. It's the World Drivers' Championship - and they're all drivers, with the goal of winning the championship!! If they want the Team Award, they can go for the Constructors'!!;)
I personally think there's a difference between holding stations to preserve maximum points, and not having the chance to fight against your team mate from the start. In general, I don't agree with the whole 'move over and let the current/favoured team leader pass' thing or one driver getting preferential treatment. Just my opinion.
Depending on the stage of the WDC, team orders may seem sensible; but not when both drivers have a chance of winning.
I personally think there's a difference between holding stations to preserve maximum points, and not having the chance to fight against your team mate from the start. In general, I don't agree with the whole 'move over and let the current/favoured team leader pass' thing or one driver getting preferential treatment. Just my opinion.
Depending on the stage of the WDC, team orders may seem sensible; but not when both drivers have a chance of winning.
#24
Peeko
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Posted 12 August 2000 - 06:06
jimm,
...notice the years that you mentioned the only competition for the driver's championship was within the team. The 87 situation is a little different. Now Frank Williams doesn't care for the driver's championship, and it was pretty obvious his car's were going to win the constructor's for him again. Therefore, his driver's selfishness would only benefit him, if they didn't take each other out of course. And obvioulsy the other 2 years you mentioned no one was in the same league as McLaren.
As far as teamates go, if the driver's cars are the class of the field (ala Mclaren 88, 89), then yes I'd let the driver's battle amongst themselves. When there is competition from another team, I say it is absolutely absurd to let the slower of your two drivers hold up the quicker one, while your oponents run off in the distance.
The last 4 years the WDC has been one by teams that let the drivers race. Add to that '87, '88 and '89 and it seems that #1 may not be as much help as it would seem.
...notice the years that you mentioned the only competition for the driver's championship was within the team. The 87 situation is a little different. Now Frank Williams doesn't care for the driver's championship, and it was pretty obvious his car's were going to win the constructor's for him again. Therefore, his driver's selfishness would only benefit him, if they didn't take each other out of course. And obvioulsy the other 2 years you mentioned no one was in the same league as McLaren.
As far as teamates go, if the driver's cars are the class of the field (ala Mclaren 88, 89), then yes I'd let the driver's battle amongst themselves. When there is competition from another team, I say it is absolutely absurd to let the slower of your two drivers hold up the quicker one, while your oponents run off in the distance.
#25
jimm
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Posted 12 August 2000 - 07:47
peeko,
97,98 and 99 the compition was from outside the team and for the most part the driver's were alowed to race and still won the championship. I think it is a hard sell that FW or RD were confident of anything considering that the WDC and WCC went down to the final race and yet HHF was really only asked to help JV in the last race and DC was allowed to win Spa even though Mika was close in the championship. Still they all won the WDC.
97,98 and 99 the compition was from outside the team and for the most part the driver's were alowed to race and still won the championship. I think it is a hard sell that FW or RD were confident of anything considering that the WDC and WCC went down to the final race and yet HHF was really only asked to help JV in the last race and DC was allowed to win Spa even though Mika was close in the championship. Still they all won the WDC.
#26
Rogue
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Posted 12 August 2000 - 12:00
Personally I don;t think it is really for us to decide, it is between the teams and drivers - unless you really meant to ask what we prefer...
Personally I favour a solid team structure with a concrete number one and two. Usually I would like to see the number two being a younger guy who is not so much being held back, but rather trained in the arts of his team leader. This is, of course, thinking of the situation with the 'team manager' hat on, however, if I were one of the drivers, clearly my opinion would depend on whethere I was the number one or two.
Remembering McLaren of 88 & 89 and Williams of 86 & 87 and all the crap that went on because they had two distinct number one's, I have to say that I didn't like that too much.
Regards,
Personally I favour a solid team structure with a concrete number one and two. Usually I would like to see the number two being a younger guy who is not so much being held back, but rather trained in the arts of his team leader. This is, of course, thinking of the situation with the 'team manager' hat on, however, if I were one of the drivers, clearly my opinion would depend on whethere I was the number one or two.
Remembering McLaren of 88 & 89 and Williams of 86 & 87 and all the crap that went on because they had two distinct number one's, I have to say that I didn't like that too much.
Regards,
#27
Nomad
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Posted 12 August 2000 - 15:00
Linus
the no1s from your list. (as the teams treated them)
Hill
Fizzy
Alesi
Alesi
Berger
Irvine
Hill
Piquet (everyone hates mansell ;) )
Can't be bothered to explain why, cos it's the weekend
the no1s from your list. (as the teams treated them)
Hill
Fizzy
Alesi
Alesi
Berger
Irvine
Hill
Piquet (everyone hates mansell ;) )
Can't be bothered to explain why, cos it's the weekend
#28
Linus27
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Posted 12 August 2000 - 15:53
Nomad
Sorry, don't agree with any of that.
Sorry, don't agree with any of that.
#29
aross
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Posted 12 August 2000 - 21:34
Hey, wih the exception of the guy leading, I'll bet every driver would love to be in a position to go after their teammate.
the trouble is F1 isn't about the drivers championship, it's about the constructors championship.
that's the real reason the teams don't want the guys fighting too hard with each other. The only reason they allow it at all is because the FIA said they had to.
the trouble is F1 isn't about the drivers championship, it's about the constructors championship.
that's the real reason the teams don't want the guys fighting too hard with each other. The only reason they allow it at all is because the FIA said they had to.
#30
Rogue
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Posted 13 August 2000 - 08:07
I disagree, F1 is about the drivers championship, that is the most prestigeous title to win, even for a team. The contrustors title is probably the holy grail for the engine manufacturers on paper, but the drivers title in *your* car brings the greatest results for exposure.
Thats why Ferrari focus all their efforts behind one driver, when they could more easily win the constructors title having more fully utilised both drivers.
Regards,
Thats why Ferrari focus all their efforts behind one driver, when they could more easily win the constructors title having more fully utilised both drivers.
Regards,
