28 replies to this topic

[Bob Brzezinski]

http://www.pbase.com/atrltd/bric2005

I've heard rumors about what happened. Does anyone have any solid information? It doesn't sound like anyone was seriously hurt, thank heavens.

[Paul Medici]

I was in the paddock near the straight when it happened and heard the noise and saw the smoke. After some time, the announcer reported that none of the drivers were seriously injuried.

I understand that it took awhile to get one of the drivers out of his car.
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[ggnagy]

This is taken from a post made to the SCCA production racing web site. There was a accident somewhat like this one that occured this year at the SCCA June Sprints, so it was quite a topic of discussion.

I was the operating steward for this race. The pace car did what was the right thing to do. We gave them instructions for each group. The two pole guys admitted to running up the hill at 5000 rpm in 3rd gear. The fifth place guy was racing well before the green flag and tryed to force his way between the wall and the car in front of him. He started scraping the wall and the guy behind him checked up and the car that hit him started to spin and then it was one after another into them. I am amazed that no one was killed. All the drivers except two had hans devices.

The green flag was in deed thrown. I red flagged the race with in 3 seconds of the green. Even with the red flag the drivers in the back just keep driving into the rear. The red was shown at corner 15(the walk over bridge). The drivers just did not pay attention. All drivers were forced to attend a meeting right after the incident. They were all yelled at. Interesting that in a few classes they are not allowed to pass until after turn 1 (Historic Gran Prix) and turn 3 for Can Am. One historic Gran Prix driver was banned from their series for life due to an incident in the kink.

I have to agree that the drivers in this group are some of the most agressive drivers I have ever seen. More distrubing to me were how many fist fights started after drivers started getting out of there cars. I feel that if they were able to get out they should have been happy they could even move after a incident like this.

I was very happy with how all of our crews came together to work in the heat. We had a steady flow of water for all the rescue crews, ambulance crews and wrecker crews while they were working in over 90 degree heat. What a great team.

Mike Engelke

[Pils1989]

Is there a video somewhere as I don't really understand what happened. The pictures tell something really stupid leaded to a wreck.

[David M. Kane]

This group is particularly aggressive. In fact, the HGP group usually doesn't race until after turn 5. My wife raced in the Formula Classic race in a Lotus 22 and she felt the driving was the stupid, the worst she has seen in 5 years of racing Historics.

Dave

[Bob Brzezinski]

Thank you for the information. I've been to the BRIC countless times and always enjoy the big-bore stuff, but as I remarked to a friend in an email yesterday, the Group 6 race always seems more like an SCCA Runoffs event than a vintage one.

[sblick]

Our drivers complained about nothing all weekend in the Formula Ford and B class. One of our drivers went off but it was his fault. It was a beautiful weekend there with lots of good racing. I have lots of pictures of some great racing cars. Everyone I talked to loves the BRIC way more than Monterey Historics. The caliber of cars and people is unmatches except maybe Watkins Glen.

[Doug Nye]

Would somebody - anybody? - give us interested Brits a break and simply describe specifically the sequence of what happened, the cast list of players involved and with what result? Is there much in the way of fall-out which will have an impact upon this kind of racing in the US? It would be nice to know.

DCN

[Rosemayer]

I was the operating steward for this race. The pace car did what was the right thing to do. We gave them instructions for each group. The two pole guys admitted to running up the hill at 5000 rpm in 3rd gear. The fifth place guy was racing well before the green flag and tryed to force his way between the wall and the car in front of him. He started scraping the wall and the guy behind him checked up and the car that hit him started to spin and then it was one after another into them. I am amazed that no one was killed. All the drivers except two had hans devices.

Official Race Results Group 6 6A, 6B, 6C, 6D
BRIAN REDMAN INT'L CHALLENGE
ROAD AMERICA - 4.0 miles July 15-17, 2005
OA CP Class Car Driver Hometown Car Desc. Sponsor
DNS 6A 33 Michael Donohue Norman OK 1963 Chevrolet Corvette Big Red Sports/Imports
DNS 6A 00 Dick Kantrud Brooklyn Park MN 1971 Chevrolet Camaro
DNS 6A 1 Howard Nardick Salem WI 1969 Chevrolet Corvette Krystina & Danielle Racing
DNS 6B 161 Larry Ligas Largo FL 1961 Jaguar E-Type Predator Performance Racing
DNS 6A 14 Rick Nichols Littleton CO 1967 Chevrolet Corvette
DNS 6B 7 Trent Terry Benton IL 1966 Jaguar E-Type Terry's Jaguar Parts
DNS 6A 711 Jerry Gollnick Boulder CO 1964 Chevrolet Corvette
DNS 6A 19 Ray Mulacek Warrenville IL 1969 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 Quicksilver Racing
DNS 6A 42 Richard Mooney Salt Lake City UT 1968 Corvette Roadster Collector Motorsports
DNS 6B 03 Scott Cline Hartford WI 1962 Jaguar XKE Silverstone Racing
DNS 6B 0 Jim Bradley Gaston IN 1967 Chevrolet Camaro Z-2 JMB Motorsports
DNS 6A 133 Randy Rupp Eden WI 1970 Ford Mustang RT Racing
DNS 6B 25 Karl Schiffmayer Barrington Hills IL 1964 Shelby Cobra
DNS 6A 64 Steve Forrer Mequon WI 1969 Chevrolet Corvette
DNS 6A 86 Bruce Leven Puyallup WA 1969 Chevrolet Corvette J & L Fabricating
DNS 6A 21 Bill Todd Marquette MI 1965 Chevrolet Corvette C Yard Racing
DNS 6A 60 William Cotter Puyallup wa 1969 Chevrolet Corvette J & L Fabricating
DNS 6B 87 Carl Jensen Loxahatchee FL 1969 Chevrolet Camaro Z28
DNS 6B 61 Bob Hebert Lenox MA 1967 Jaguar XKE Donovan Motorsports Jaguar Select E
DNS 6A 3 John Ertmer Neenah WI 1970 Mustang Boss 302 Hartwig Racing
DNS 6B 99 Ed Jensen Des Moines, IA 1967 Chevy Camaro Z28 JBR
DNS 6A 6 Steve MacDonald Woodinville WA 1969 Chevrolet Camaro J & L Fabricating
DNS 6B 31 Colin Comer River Hills WI 1969 Pontiac Trans Am
DNS 6A 76 Brian Morrison Allston MA 1972 Chevrolet Corvette
DNS 6B 78 Richard Lind Noblesville IN 1969 Chevrolet Z28 Camaro Collector Motorsports
DNS 6A 141 John Kiland Las Vegas NV 1966 Chevrolet Corvette
DNS 6C 75 Chris Streit Naperville IL 1970 Porsche 911S Motodelta
DNS 6A 81 John Rische Sheboygan WI 1969 Chevrolet Corvette JJC Vintage Motorsports
DNS 6A 77 Bill Morrison Kenilworth IL 1965 Chevrolet Corvette BBM
DNS 6B 941 Brian Kennedy Cannon Falls MN 1966 Shelby GT-350
DNS 6A 4 Brandon Ryder Cary IL 1966 Chevrolet Corvette Blue Max Racing
DNS 6A 39 Chris Hartwig Appleton WI 1970 Mustang Boss 302 Hartwig Racing
DNS 6B 12 John Safro Nashotah WI 1965 Ford Mustang Fastbac Safro Motorcars
DNS 6B 22 Steve Plater Cedarburg WI 1966 Ford Mustang MGC Motorsports
DNS 6B 92 Patrick Hogan Littleton CO 1968 Chevrolet Camaro
DNS 6C 05 Don Sebert Kansas City MO 1974 Porsche 911 Race Central
DNS 6B 79 Steve Hughes Saukville WI 1965 Shelby GT-350
DNS 6B 26 Bill Gagliano Wauwatosa WI 1967 Chevrolet Corvette C
DNS 6A 153 Jim Halsey Los Angeles CA 1965 Shelby GT350
DNS 6B 94 Kevin Bruce Durango co 1966 Shelby GT350 Bruce Group Racing
DNS 6B 270 Jerry Loftin Manchester GA 1966 Shelby GT-350
DNS 6B 71 Michael Rankin Mundelein IL 1965 Ford Mustang Highpoint Farms Motorsports
DNS 6A 188 Alan Brown Antioch IL 1967 Ford Mustang WB Vintage Racing
DNS 6A 65 Cory Hucek New Franken WI 1968 Pontiac Firebird ARMS Motorsports/Team Tiger
DNS 6B 163 Jerry Groose New Franken WI 1963 Chevrolet Corvette Team Tiger
DNS 6D 91 Wayne Baker San Diego Ca 1969 Porsche 911
DNS 6A 28 Kevin Head Appleton WI 1970 Mustang Boss 302 Hartwig Racing
DNS 6B 62 Laurence Page Minneapolis MN 1967 Ford Mustang Sisu Motorsport
DNS 6A 43 Richard Mooney Salt Lake City UT 1965 Corvette Roadster Collector Motorsports
DNS 6B 68 John Malmquist Madison WI 1969 Chevrolet Corvette Viking Racing
DNS 6A 5 James Bartlett Minneapolis MN 1963 Chevrolet Corvette Echidna Racing LTD
DNS 6B 8 Michael Stott Ho Ho Kus NJ 1963 AC Cobra Donovan Motorsports
DNS 6A 89 Michael Bilicki Richfield WI 1965 Ford Mustang GT350
DNS 6C 44 Ralph McCracken Nashville TN 1973 Porsche 911
DNS 6A 169 Scott Graham Green Bay WI 1969 Pontiac Firebird ARMS Motorsports/Team Tiger
DNS 6A 142 Tom Blank Aspen CO 1968 Ford GT Fastback Creekside Yacht Club
DNS 6B 2 Bruce Bannatyne Santa Monica ca 1974 Ford Capri
DNS 6B 9 Sam Viviano McDonald PA 1969 Chevrolet Camaro

RACE RED FLAGGED AT START DUE TO ON TRACK INCIDENT AND NOT RE-STARTED

TIMED ELECTRONICALLY WITH THE CHRONOMIX CC737 AND AMB TRANSPONDERS - Software by RJK Systems
Bill Rudolph, Peter Klinger & Dave Kircher; Chiefs of Timing & Scoring
Posted at: 11:14 A.M. 7/17/2005

Unlike in Europe there are rolling starts, and with such a large field the cars in the back half can only see the pace car pull off as they are rounding the last turn onto the main straight. It's a steep climb to the start finish line they cannot see to see the front of the field and the flagman so while the 5th driver f*****d the start, the back half have assumed all was fine and going flat out and as they pop over the brow of the hill. By then, it was too late to stop...

[rosemeyer]

Twinny should not these be merged?

[pilota]

Big discussion with photos can be found here

http://www.ferrarich...ead.php?t=67237

Nathan

[Ruairidh]

Originally posted by pilota
Big discussion with photos can be found here

http://www.ferrarich...ead.php?t=67237

Nathan

So I'm half reading this and all of a sudden it gets into a P4 0846 "genuine or fake?" debate

You have been warned!

[pilota]

Originally posted by Ruairidh


So I'm half reading this and all of a sudden it gets into a P4 0846 "genuine or fake?" debate

You have been warned!

You can always ignore those posts
Nathan

[Muzza]

Two friends of mine were watching the start of the race - one of them was actually racing at the Brian Redman Challenge - and both could see the accident unfolding in front of their very eyes. People actually saw that a big crash was about to happen and, desperately, some tried to warn the drivers in the back rows of the grid, but to no avail.

One of the guys I mentioned above - the one that raced - told me that "half of the grid was behaving like a bunch of jackasses already in the formation lap" and that "it is bull**** to blame only one guy because there were also other drivers trying to pull overtakes by the starting line". Additionally, the drivers in the front two rows of the grid were pacing themselves faster than expected, whilst the mid-grid was too slow and bunched-up... Having said that, and as also pointed out by other people, the topography of the start/finish straight at Road America did not help, as there is a steep (quite steep) climb from Turn 14 to the finish line and the initial accident happened right after this rather blind brow.

I attended the Brian Redman Challenge in 2002 and 2003 and in both years I saw a number of very unsportive (is this the correct word in English?) "lovetaps" in almost all races (and not only amongst the big bore division). For example, the number of cars with the left rear quarter damaged was surprising - and this was the result of other drivers "tapping" them in the approach to Turn 5. I actually heard a fellow saying that something like "it was better to tap people into Turn 3, as the speeds are lower and there is a large run-off area there"... :

To Doug: you have witnessed historic races on both sides of the pond and wonder what is your impression of the American scene. I will stick my neck out of the window here and state that, in my humble opinion, historic racing is much less fair and sportive here in the United States when compared to England. I believe that:

- some of the drivers here do believe that "rubbing is racing" and officials have a rather complacent attitude about that (I know, I know, some people have been punished here and there, but the number of accidents/incidents caused by poor driving is much higher than that and it is simply unacceptable anyway);

- the width of driving skills is broader in the United States, with a huge disparity between the front and back ends of the grid - an euphemistical way of saying that some of the drivers in historic racing in the US should simply not be there;

- (and this is a particularly disappointing aspect) there is quite some cheating around here. This really p****** me off, and I think that historic racing in places like England and France has a much more "noble" spirit. As some of you know, I head a team that competes in a "certain historic racing series based in Southern California". I suspect that at least half of the field in the majority of its classes (and I can prove several of these cases with documents like pictures and video) is one way or another competing with illegal vehicles. Shortening driveshaft (thus moving the engine towards the centre of the car and reducing the polar inertia of the car), altering suspension points, replacing steel body parts by fiberglass - you name it and you will find it. There is all sorts of crazy things going on, and I know of an Elva that had had most of its chassis replaced by aluminum members – which were then painted to look like steel...

A few races ago I noticed that one of the Healeys in our class was "looking wider than usual"; our driver and I found a way of discreetly measuring its rear and front track and - bingo! - it had been modified, what is an absolute no-no in the rule book. Unfortunately the officials do not take their own rule book seriously and allow a lot of leeway (sometimes euphemistically called "free interpretation"), maybe fearing for the size of the grid or for political implications of possible sanctions (nobody wants to mess with the stalwarts of the series). Another annoying case is of the guy that wins almost all races in our class: the bottom of his car has been skinned (I mean, he installed a sheet of aluminum to streamline the underbody and improve the airflow, what is completely illegal) and he races with a very large "license plate" (displaying his name) on its front bumper - that actually acts as a spoiler...

Well, sorry for the rant but it really sucks. Our team has no ambitions at all - we race just because we love it (even though we are driving our wives crazy and our bank accounts empty) - and it is not the lack of wins that bitters me. It is, instead, the fact that some people - too many, actually - directly and deliberately knock down the rules and try to win at any cost, what is a hollow glory anyway.

Regards,


Muzza

P.S.: My apologies for not posting at TNF for the last months (not that I believe that anyone missed me...), but I moving to Boston and these have been very busy times.

[David M. Kane]

Doug and others:

Shairon and I just returned from Grattan Raceway near Grand Rapids, Michigan. This meeting was also run by VSCDA (Vintage Sport Car Driver Association). VSCDA is still smarting from the carnage at the BRIC since it appears that at least 15 of the 17 wreaked race cars are write-offs. The estimated loss is $2 Million US. So they had VERY strict rules in place for the meet, particularly the rolling start. Shairon was grided 3rd and about 100 yards from the start line she moved to the right (sideways, not forward, thus gaining no advantage). She "claims" they had already waved the flag, and our crew nearly had a meltdown; but nonetheless they blackflagged on lap 3 for jumping the start. Apparently the clerk of the course called down and demanded she be black flagged. A strong warning had been given out at the drivers meeting and he was in mood for the slightest variance. After a drive through she rejoined the field at the back, but she did manage to post the fastest lap after some severe Australian language as she left the pits.


There was also two incidents where 4 competent Formulas Fords had two seperate but relatively minor accidents. The driver conduct committee of which I was guest participant, vote 4 to 0 to
put the two violating parties on probation for the rest of the meeting and for the next meeting.
One Executive from VSCDA wanted to send them home on the spot! The driver committee felt they got the message, and they did, for on Sunday they didn't put a foot wrong.

The bigger issue, in my opinion, in American Vintage racing is bloody leaking cars. Every meeting these days is like ice skating! Tech inspecting needs to improve!

There is a pattern developing where we are getting these mega events where we get 500 to 700 entrants and the tech inspectors are overwhelmed, but the promoter is actually making some money. The other problem, in my opinion, is when you get these many peacocks in one garden the feathers REALLY fan out and people can WAY too pumped up and overdrive...

[Ray Bell]

David...

When are we going to see pictures of this rapid little Mallala?

[David M. Kane]

Ray:

I'm not very technical, so the best bet is to go www.shaironbeale.com, The Lotus Lady, and go to the photos button.

Hope that works for you, sorry for the extra work!

[rosemeyer]

Did anybody see the the ALMS race at Elkhart Lake this weekend on Speed vision in car shots on the restarts after turn at turn 14 you are blind going up the hill until you hit the brow.Ask RDCR the speeds are extreamly fast without any vision until the brow is reached.I have a MEPG but is too large to post here .12.7 meg.If someone can help me to know how to post it I will.
Thanks Rosey

[bigears]

Amazing post, Muzza!

Words fail me...

rosemeyer, you can upload it at www.rapidshare.de and post the url link to this forum.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by David M. Kane
.....I'm not very technical, so the best bet is to go www.shaironbeale.com, The Lotus Lady, and go to the photos button.

Hope that works for you, sorry for the extra work!

Not a problem...

And that restoration has done Garrie proud! By the way, has the rear suspension been updated along the way?

[Rockford]

You can get this in a link contained in the site of the original post, but just incase nobody's come across it yet:

http://p075.ezboard....cID=12212.topic

Some people obviously have more time on their hands than even I do!

[eldougo]

Originally posted by Muzza

some of the drivers here do believe that "rubbing is racing" and officials have a rather complacent attitude about that (I know, I know, some people have been punished here and there, but the number of accidents/incidents caused by poor driving is much higher than that and it is simply unacceptable anyway);
___________________________________________
Well, sorry for the rant but it really sucks. Our team has no ambitions at all - we race just because we love it (even though we are driving our wives crazy and our bank accounts empty) - and it is not the lack of wins that bitters me. It is, instead, the fact that some people - too many, actually - directly and deliberately knock down the rules and try to win at any cost, what is a hollow glory anyway.
_____________________________________________

P.S.: My apologies for not posting at TNF for the last months (not that I believe that anyone missed me...), but I moving to Boston and these have been very busy times. [/B]

.

Thanks for that detail RANT , but this is how historic racing has been going for some years out here in OZ and i for one think is really sucks, these people who come along late in life ,have never driven in a real race and think that it's there right to make it or go home with a steaming wreck ???
Historic racing is so expensive these days that they let a LOT of things get through just to keep the numbers up and cost down.

PS. (An old friend of mine who has live in the states since the late 80's and races in historic racing has always said to me that it a joke what they let pass as a REAL race car over there).

[David M. Kane]

Barry:

I tried using the email button on this site twice and both emails bounced back with a fatal error.

The Elfin Mallala has been through two rebuilds since we bought it from Garrie. One major one in New Zealand by Barrie Leach and another here in Indianapolis. The rear suspension was pretty ground down, so we had to replace the lower arms. Once back in Indy the motor was replaced by proper Lotus Twin-Cam, there was a lot of Nissan stuff in the original motor. So we bought one from Dave Vheager in California. This proved to be very powerful, but peaky, so when rebuild time came we had Chuck Cornelison from VDS Engines do it. Now it has this huge sweet spot that is very, very broad so it is much more driveable as it pulls from about 4500rpms all the way to 8500rpm, 9000rpm in a pinch. He's a real engineering artist. He use to build and rebuild Penske's Ilmor motors when Rich Mears was the lead driver. He has a very techical background including an Engineering degree from Purdue.

We were a little naughty as replaced the donuts with sliding spline halfshafts as the car was very chattery under braking. The car is now a real joy to drive and much, much more user friendly.

[Ray Bell]

My question related mainly to the use of top links instead of using the driveshafts as suspension members (as in Lotus 18 and Jaguars)...

I guess that change was made before you got the car then. Whose was it?

[David M. Kane]

Ray:

Must have been done before we got the car. We didn't touch that part of the suspension. My next thought is to upgrade the shocks to Konis, it currently has Spax dampers...ehh!!! God they are horrible!

[Ray Bell]

Older ones, eh?

I believe they've improved a lot over the past several years. They needed to, they were direct copies of AT9 Armstrongs in less attractive cases!

Did we ever suss out which particular Mallala this is?

[David M. Kane]

:

it is #5, the last one built. The last owner was Stephen Knox. I hope I have the spelling correct on his first name.

[Ray Bell]

Yes, 'Stephen' is correct... nice guy...

John Medley and Dick Willis will be better informed as to which car it is then. Surprised that there was only five built. I was sure there was one went to NZ, one went to South Africa, there was Charlie Occhipinti's and Greg Cusack's... without trying I think of four.

Might as well start a thread about Mallalas then... find out more...

[TecnoRacing]

Uhg, what a waste of beautifully machinery...

I personally think racecars should be 'raced' (perhaps not quite at 10/10ths) and not simply trundled around - but frankly I suspect some of these guys have no bussiness doing so in such cars...