60 replies to this topic

[black magic]

essentially that's what we are now looking at.

his probable only win was when no serious competition was on track. have we ever seen michael consistantly 50 sec behind a race winner while driving a ferrari? yes hungary 2003 was awful but they turned that around pretty smartly and whilst struggled at other races in 2003 my recollection was of him at least iin a position to challenge for a win even if it didn't eventuate

the funny thing is that it is my impression without any data to back that up, is that the 2005 is a "better' car than either the 96 or 97 ferrari. presumably with the rules empasising reliablity rather than speed he no longer thas the advantage from retirement s from others to "luck" into a win. also reflects on teh much better job many teams are doing.

staggering when you consider that 2004 was his most dominant then to end up with your worst season regardless of whose fault it is.

seems they ahve certainly gone off on wrong tangent as whilst qualifying better it is certainly far from impressive as stil well away from pole and now we see their performance dropping off as the season progresses.

what does it say about modern f1 though if he is nearly 2nd in the wdc albeit a country mile behind alonso

[Chubby_Deuce]

okay.

[Scoop]

well atleast qualifying seems to have improved for ferrari.. a marginal bit, but that's something

I guess this year is a write off anyway... Why, and how it came to this state will remain a mystery. Ferrari at first pointed fingers at BS, but recently have completely shrouded the whole thing with their "package" statements...

Could be Todts new gf.. he needs to get off her and get some work done ;)

[Arrow]

Michael has proven he can overcome a chassis disadvantage but a tyre one is simply too much. You are talking upto seconds a lap and no driver can compensate for that especially with the level of opposition these days.

[black magic]

but it also seems they have gone up some dead end. the speed difference at imola was so great we all expeceted them to at least have become competitive. if you had said ferrari were 2 sec / lap at any circuit based on the last 3 races we would have laughed at you.

I will always suspect the speed was there just can't be harnessed with any reliability. its not like france and germany were especially hot either.

[Schu]

This year car is alot more solid than the 96 car. The main problem is competition so much deeper and the weather (wet) just doesn't go his way

[fastlegs]

Originally posted by Arrow
Michael has proven he can overcome a chassis disadvantage but a tyre one is simply too much. You are talking upto seconds a lap and no driver can compensate for that especially with the level of opposition these days.

I agree. If Ferrari were using Michelin tires this year IMO MS would be competing head on with McLaren and Renault.

[ScudBoy]

I know people are going to jump on my for saying this, but its all tyres.

Bridgestone are going backwards relative to Michelin, resulting in Ferrari as a package going backwards despite the ongoing testing and development.

This last race was a case in point.

At the start of the season both Bridgestone and Michelin were having trouble making a tyre last over the whole race. If you recall towards the end of a race all the drivers were slipping and sliding and barely making it to the end with grip left.

In recent races Michelin have cured this. There is no obvious performance drop off, and drivers don’t need to “manage” their tyres.

In stark contrast we have Bridgestone, who in an attempt to resolve qualifying woes, have went backwards in tyre longevity, at the end of the race both MS and RB were struggling for any grip whatsoever. That is, both the soft and hard compound tyres didn’t last the race distance.

And the tyre is still no world beater in qualifying either.

So it looks to me like Bridgestone have really dropped the ball. Still no real qualifying pace (only a relative and not absolute improvement), and now a loss of race pace.

If you cant qualify well, and your race pace is crap – what chance do you have of even sneaking in a reliability based win like Alonso did? Zip.

[dworsham]

wow

same season all over again

only a different color car




end the maddness

maybe next year McL will WALK with the title
and then Renault will come back
and then,maybe ferrari....


F1
F nothing


change pls

[DriftDevil]

Originally posted by fastlegs


I agree. If Ferrari were using Michelin tires this year IMO MS would be competing head on with McLaren and Renault.

Im going to go out on a limb here.

If Ferrari were on Michelins, Schumacher would be leading the Championship. He wouldn't be dominating like 2002 and 2004 but he'd be leading......comfortably......

It astounds me Ferrari havn't switched to Michelin by now. Tyres are THE biggest factor. Its also something the driver can least compensate for.

[Heathcliff]

its about time MS gets an inferior car, he hasnt had one since the end of 1999.

Schumi aint looking that hot without best car

[DriftDevil]

Originally posted by Heathcliff
its about time MS gets an inferior car, he hasnt had one since the end of 1999.

Schumi aint looking that hot without best car

so you never watched F1 before 2000 eh?

Figures.....

[Heathcliff]

Originally posted by DriftDevil


so you never watched F1 before 2000 eh?

Figures.....

oh I was watching f1 long before 2000, were you?

[DriftDevil]

Originally posted by Heathcliff


oh I was watching f1 long before 2000, were you?

Iv'e been watching F1 since 1993.

Are you sure? Sure it wasn't some fantasy racing series dreamt up in your head. With Schumacher being in the best car of course, 5 secs a lap faster than anything else.......

You are seriously damn bloody funny. Imagine if you were pissed.......

[Heathcliff]

Originally posted by DriftDevil


Iv'e been watching F1 since 1993.

Are you sure? Sure it wasn't some fantasy racing series dreamt up in your head. With Schumacher being in the best car of course, 5 secs a lap faster than anything else.......

You are seriously damn bloody funny. Imagine if you were pissed.......

I started watching f1 before 1993, but what does that have to do with my first comment in this topic?

[Speed_A]

Originally posted by Heathcliff
its about time MS gets an inferior car, he hasnt had one since the end of 1999.

Schumi aint looking that hot without best car

Noone is. MS looking more than most.

[Fortymark]

Originally posted by DriftDevil


Im going to go out on a limb here.

If Ferrari were on Michelins, Schumacher would be leading the Championship. He wouldn't be dominating like 2002 and 2004 but he'd be leading......comfortably......

It astounds me Ferrari havn't switched to Michelin by now. Tyres are THE biggest factor. Its also something the driver can least compensate for.

I don´t think so.
Look at quickest laps, Kimi was 2 full seconds quicker than Mark Webber in the Williams.
Michael Schumacher was 2 full seconds quicker than Tiago Monteiro.

We know the Williams sucks right now, but it still has the same tyres as the McLaren.
Schumacher has tyres made for him and probably the same as could be fit on the Jordan.
Being a 7 time WDC against a paydriver, the difference isn´t 2 full seconds but maybe 1,5 or even less. Even if the Williams is slow, it can never be as bad as the Jordan.
Either Schumacher is slowmacher, or their car isn´t really the absolute best.

[Heathcliff]

Originally posted by Speed_A
Noone is. MS looking more than most.

More than most, but not as much as drivers like FA, JPM and KR {because those 3 are better than him}

[ScudBoy]

Originally posted by Scoop
Ferrari at first pointed fingers at BS, but recently have completely shrouded the whole thing with their "package" statements...

Dont think so..that is just standard “win as a team, lose as a team” speak, noble, but hardly the truth.

The most recent MS quote as at yesterday in regards to this:

"It's obvious that we have to get faster. Our main problem is the tyres," he added. "The main problem is the lack of grip with the tyres."

[Speed_A]

Originally posted by Heathcliff
More than most, but not as much as drivers like FA, JPM and KR {because those 3 are better than him}

That's your opinion. I would say that FA and KR might (just might) be a tad faster this year but by no means as complete as MS yet. JPM is not in the same league.

[Earthling]

Whats the status of any teams switching back to Bridgestones next year?
Even Michelin wants some 1 to even out the competition!

[tifosi]

Originally posted by DriftDevil
It astounds me Ferrari havn't switched to Michelin by now. Tyres are THE biggest factor. Its also something the driver can least compensate for.

The rumour I heard over the weekend is that 3 teams (Williams, Toyota, and I think Red Bull) are looking at switching to Bridgestone.

[WACKO]

I'm afraid that after Hockenheim's confirmation of Bridgestone being completely lost in it's battle for grip and competitiveness none of the Michelin teams will even doubt about a switch. Maybe Red Bull, but that would be more a political decision rather than one stemming from good sense. Bridgestone have a very tough challenge ahead, closing the gap towards Michelin effectively with only one team, whilst Michelin can look ahead with six teams regularly testing.

[Torx]

Originally posted by fastlegs
I agree. If Ferrari were using Michelin tires this year IMO MS would be competing head on with McLaren and Renault.

And if some other top teams had Bridgestones during the 2002 and 2004 seasons it wouldn't have been a cakewalk for Ferrari.

[Speed_A]

Originally posted by Torx


And if some other top teams had Bridgestones during the 2002 and 2004 seasons it wouldn't have been a cakewalk for Ferrari.

Of course, a significant part of the overall advantage came from the tyres. Just as disadvantage came in 2003 and 2005.

[MrSlow]

Anyone claiming that "it is the tyres" must also then acknowledge the fact that Jordan and Minardi has done a far better job than Ferrari this season. They have cut half of the distance towards Ferrari that they had 2004 and is in fact closer to the top teams of 2005 than they where to the top team (Ferrari) 2004. And they are using the same "worthless" tyre as the Ferrari.

I know, I have been posting this several times, but instead of proving me wrong, the tifosis goes to another thread and post "it is only the tyres".

Edit: Times added

2004
Best Ferrari lap: Schu 1'13.783
Best Minardi Lap: Bruni 1'18.372

2005
Best Ferrari lap: Schu 1'16.099
Best Minardi Lap: Albers 1'18.425
(Best lap Kimi 1:14.8)

Check with Forix, you will see the same tendency in almost all races. Minardi and Jordan are at the same pace or faster than last year and Ferrari is a lot slower than 2004. The top Michelin teams are still slower than Ferrari was last year, but have not lost as much as Ferrari. Statistics alone could claim that Bridgestones are the better tyre this year.

[DaleCooper]

Originally posted by MrSlow
Anyone claiming that "it is the tyres" must also then acknowledge the fact that Jordan and Minardi has done a far better job than Ferrari this season. They have cut half of the distance towards Ferrari that they had 2004 and is in fact closer to the top teams of 2005 than they where to the top team (Ferrari) 2004. And they are using the same "worthless" tyre as the Ferrari.

I know, I have been posting this several times, but instead of proving me wrong, the tifosis goes to another thread and post "it is only the tyres".

Edit: Times added

2004
Best Ferrari lap: Schu 1'13.783
Best Minardi Lap: Bruni 1'18.372

2005
Best Ferrari lap: Schu 1'16.099
Best Minardi Lap: Albers 1'18.425
(Best lap Kimi 1:14.8)

Check with Forix, you will see the same tendency in almost all races. Minardi and Jordan are at the same pace or faster than last year and Ferrari is a lot slower than 2004. The top Michelin teams are still slower than Ferrari was last year, but have not lost as much as Ferrari. Statistics alone could claim that Bridgestones are the better tyre this year.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't MInardi have an ancient chassis for a number of years until they brought in a brand new one this year, also with a big step on the engine side, and isn't Jordan using an uber competitive engine in the Toyota which gives them a huge step up in performance? I know this may not perhaps explain the entire time gained over Ferrari, but it surely must account for a big chunk.

Looking at comparative performances this year, Jordan has been within 2-3 seconds of Ferrari for the entire year, and Minardi has fluctuated greatly, but they have sorted their new chassis out recently(they test little so what do u expect, immediate results?). Even at Imola, Jordan was within 2 seconds of Ferrari, and that was Ferrari's best showing. So why couldn't they keep it going? Since the gap between Jordan and Ferrari stays the same, my guess is it must have something to do with the tyres.


Cooper

[Frans]

I don't understand.........

I find this Michael Schumacher's BEST season to date!!!

[peroa]

Originally posted by DaleCooper



Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't MInardi have an ancient chassis for a number of years until they brought in a brand new one this year, also with a big step on the engine side, and isn't Jordan using an uber competitive engine in the Toyota which gives them a huge step up in performance? I know this may not perhaps explain the entire time gained over Ferrari, but it surely must account for a big chunk.

Looking at comparative performances this year, Jordan has been within 2-3 seconds of Ferrari for the entire year, and Minardi has fluctuated greatly, but they have sorted their new chassis out recently(they test little so what do u expect, immediate results?). Even at Imola, Jordan was within 2 seconds of Ferrari, and that was Ferrari's best showing. So why couldn't they keep it going? Since the gap between Jordan and Ferrari stays the same, my guess is it must have something to do with the tyres.


Cooper

So? Ferrari has also a new car this year.

[MrSlow]

Yes, Minardi has a new car this season. A state of the art vecicle that has been created by the best craftsmen in the world. After countless of hours in windtunnels they have fine tuned the chassis on the world best racetracks 5 days/week since the season started. The well organized Jordan team have also made an enourmous effort to become a contender, hiring the best drivers available and spared no expense in the development department. No wonder that they have improved their speed relative Ferrari.

Williams, on the other hand... those damn Michelins have made their fine car look very average.

[DaleCooper]

Originally posted by MrSlow
Yes, Minardi has a new car this season. A state of the art vecicle that has been created by the best craftsmen in the world. After countless of hours in windtunnels they have fine tuned the chassis on the world best racetracks 5 days/week since the season started. The well organized Jordan team have also made an enourmous effort to become a contender, hiring the best drivers available and spared no expense in the development department. No wonder that they have improved their speed relative Ferrari.

Williams, on the other hand... those damn Michelins have made their fine car look very average.

I looked at the various gaps between the Bridgestone teams this year(that would be all of them so far) and I didn't see the supporting evidence for your argument. There may be something to what you say, but I doubt that Ferrari losing their way is the major contributor to their problems, perhaps a secondary consideration. Or if you prefer, Minardi has gained 3-4 seconds on Ferrari throughout the season not because they are doing a better job, but because they hadn't optimized their package until recently, due to their restricted testing funding., ie. they were underperforming for a long time.


Cooper

[DaleCooper]

Originally posted by peroa


So? Ferrari has also a new car this year.

Yes, but ferrari also had a new car last year, and the year before.


Cooper

[MrSlow]

I am not claiming to be 100% right in this either, but I do find it annoying that Bridgestone gets all the blame when there is so many things that indicates that Ferrari have in fact problems with the car.

It si so easy to blame Bridgestone. Just as easy as it was to give all credits to Ferrari and Michael during the good years.

[DaleCooper]

Originally posted by MrSlow
Yes, Minardi has a new car this season. A state of the art vecicle that has been created by the best craftsmen in the world. After countless of hours in windtunnels they have fine tuned the chassis on the world best racetracks 5 days/week since the season started. The well organized Jordan team have also made an enourmous effort to become a contender, hiring the best drivers available and spared no expense in the development department. No wonder that they have improved their speed relative Ferrari.

Williams, on the other hand... those damn Michelins have made their fine car look very average.

Additionally, I realized you are arguing my argument for me. It is easily plausible to imagine Williams underperforming in comparison to McLaren and Renault and BAR, teams with enormous resources. It is an entirely different thing to imagine Ferrari underperforming relative to Jordan and Minardi, teams with severely limited resources. Did the entire Ferrari team fall on its head?

More likely, it is as it always has been, the law of diminishing returns showing it's hand. Jordan could make a huge step forward simply by buying a vastly superior engine, Minardi could actually introduce a modern up to date chassis. What could Ferrari do? Reinvent the wheel? they don't have any quick and easy ways forward, like buying someone's superior engine, or copying the aerodynamics of a top team 3 years in the future. They simply have to invent/try everything themselves for the first time. That is what takes all those resources and endless testing.


Cooper

[peroa]

Let`s take 2003 for an example.
Michelin used wider front tyres then Bridgestone in 2002 already(please ignore the fact that Michelin was pushing the limits of the Reglement in 2003 - it is not the point here).

Bridgestone wanted to use wider tyres too in 2003, but Ferrari said no, it is not good for our aerodynamics.
After half of the season Bridgestone brought a wider tyre to Silverstone, were Rubens won.

So it took Ferrari half a year to realize, ups, we were wrong and B`stone was right, the wider tyre is better as the narrow one, despite being not so aerodynamical.

And I think the story repeats itself this year in another way.

[MrSlow]

Originally posted by DaleCooper



Additionally, I realized you are arguing my argument for me. It is easily plausible to imagine Williams underperforming in comparison to McLaren and Renault and BAR, teams with enormous resources. It is an entirely different thing to imagine Ferrari underperforming relative to Jordan and Minardi, teams with severely limited resources.
Cooper

You base your argument in "Ferrari can do nothing wrong because I love them". I do not support any such thing. With my Williams example I show that it can go wrong for anyone.

Did the entire Ferrari team fall on its head?

That is a good question. Are you sure the answer is "No"?

[Dragonfly]

Really the worst. It was not so bad with the 96-98 Ferrari which suffered many faulures but at least had speed. Now Minardi and Jordan a catching up on them.

[BuonoBruttoCattivo]

WAIT FOR MONZA!

[RiDE]

I love how Karlth is guaranteed to post in any thread that has Ferrari or Schumacher in the title. and its almost always something out of his fanboyism for another team/driver.

Anyway, I don't think MS or Ferrari would dominate even with Michelins on the F2005. Maybe it would be more competitive but he won't be checking out at every race.

[Wingman]

Well, when Ross Brawn says that they have not got back as much downforce as McLaren and Renault after the changes for this year, I wonder how one can claim that it is just all down to Bridgestone?

What is more interesting is that neither Ferrari nor Bridgestone seem to be able to fix the problem. Ferrari brings aero updates, Bridgestone new tires but nothing really changes. Ferrari also seem to be a little in the dark about setup and strategy. How often have Michael and Rubens been on different strategies and different compounds this year? It looks almost as if they don't really know which way to go and just hope that at least one choice is right.

[fastlegs]

Originally posted by Wingman
Well, when Ross Brawn says that they have not got back as much downforce as McLaren and Renault after the changes for this year, I wonder how one can claim that it is just all down to Bridgestone?

If Ferrari were using the same tires as their direct competition they would have one less problem to be concerned about.

They could then focus primarly on aerodynamics.

[Wingman]

Originally posted by fastlegs


If Ferrari were using the same tires as their direct competition they would have one less problem to be concerned about.

They could then focus primarly on aerodynamics.

Sure, but the point is that in contrast to the years before, they seem to need to focus on aero as well.

[DaleCooper]

Originally posted by MrSlow

You base your argument in "Ferrari can do nothing wrong because I love them". I do not support any such thing. With my Williams example I show that it can go wrong for anyone.


That is a good question. Are you sure the answer is "No"?

I base my argument on something that is more likely, that is all. I pointed out some observations that do not really jive with your conclusions. I don't love Ferrari and don't appreciate it when people invent things about me.


The answer of "no" is way more likely than your proposed alternative, hence my argument.


Cooper

[DaleCooper]

Originally posted by peroa
Let`s take 2003 for an example.
Michelin used wider front tyres then Bridgestone in 2002 already(please ignore the fact that Michelin was pushing the limits of the Reglement in 2003 - it is not the point here).

Bridgestone wanted to use wider tyres too in 2003, but Ferrari said no, it is not good for our aerodynamics.
After half of the season Bridgestone brought a wider tyre to Silverstone, were Rubens won.

So it took Ferrari half a year to realize, ups, we were wrong and B`stone was right, the wider tyre is better as the narrow one, despite being not so aerodynamical.

And I think the story repeats itself this year in another way.

I agree, your explanation is quite plausible. But I am not going to assume that Ferrari are so daft as to not consider it, especially since, as you point out, they have had such revelations before. Why would it take them so long to find such a solution if laymen like us can propose it?

There are other solutions that may present themselves, most likely those which we have no inkling about.


Cooper

[Enzoluis]

2nd Ferrari
2005 2004
Australia 86,261 84,179
Malasya 96,982 95,35
Baherein 92,976 90,876
San Mari 84,435 81,873
Spain 77,156 77,887
Monaco 76,916 75,763
Europa 91,503 90,101
Canada 75,48 73,63
France 77,96 76,035
Britain 82,302 79,296
Germany 76,528 74,963
1st Sauber
2005 2004
Australia 86,893 86,282
Malasya 97,212 96,57
Baherein 93,326 92,329
San Mari 83,602 82,654
Spain 76,802 78,819
Monaco 77,482 77,151
Europa 93,329 91,413
Canada 75,945 75,078
France 77,805 76,699
Britain 82,466 80,448
Germany 76,288 75,635

1st Jordan
2005 2004
Australia 87,97 87,503
Malasya 99,833 97,433
Baherein 95,744 93,284
San Mari 84,094 83,381
Spain 78,998 78,971
Monaco 80,747 78,262
Europa 93,292 92,121
Canada 77,015 75,89
France 80,004 77,641
Britain 80,247 81,72
Germany 78,106 75,045

Delta Sauber Delta Jorda
2005 2004 2005 2004
101% 102% 102% 104%
100% 101% 103% 102%
100% 102% 103% 103%
99% 101% 100% 102%
100% 101% 102% 101%
101% 102% 105% 103%
102% 101% 102% 102%
101% 102% 102% 103%
100% 101% 103% 102%
100% 101% 98% 103%
100% 101% 102% 100%
100,3% 101,5% 101,9% 102,4%
-1% -0,4%



Just to play a Little with numbers I put here haw many looses Ferrari the second against the first Sauber and the first Jordan. Seems Ferrari have lost an amazing 1% of performance against Sauber with the same( at least similar engines) and only 0,4% against Jordan. I do not know why they looses against Jordan, but what they looses against Sauber should be tires.
I think that the problem for Ferrari is that Michelin develope a new kind of tire, not a compound. Is like in the seventies when Michelin bring up the radial tire and beat Goodyear totally. If Bridgestone do not develope a tire with flexible sides they are cooked.

[Ricardo F1]

Originally posted by fastlegs


If Ferrari were using the same tires as their direct competition they would have one less problem to be concerned about.

They could then focus primarly on aerodynamics.

Really? Just like that eh? How come McLaren took three races before they figured out how to heat their tyres then - and that on the back of years of knowledge. Ferrari's problem would not be solved overnight by switching to Michelin.

[DaleCooper]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1


Really? Just like that eh? How come McLaren took three races before they figured out how to heat their tyres then - and that on the back of years of knowledge. Ferrari's problem would not be solved overnight by switching to Michelin.

You are right, of course. But it might move them in a better direction, in the long term. It might be a case of one design philosophy running out of steam before another superior one. But these things are not easy to forecast years in advance, when initial technical plans are drawn.


Cooper

[fastlegs]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
Really? Just like that eh? How come McLaren took three races before they figured out how to heat their tyres then - and that on the back of years of knowledge. Ferrari's problem would not be solved overnight by switching to Michelin.

I'm not saying that they would solve their tire issues overnight. However, I do think that the Ferrari engineers would of figured out by this point in the season how to get enough performance out of the Michelins to become more competitive than they are right now.

[C.K.]

Originally posted by black magic
what does it say about modern f1 though if he is nearly 2nd in the wdc albeit a country mile behind alonso

I'll say it says the same for F1 as the last couple of years just with different teams.

[black magic]

so what was so right about imola that is now so wrong?

normally a loss of a sec per lap might be down to tyres but a 2 sec/lap advantage is now recently back to 1 sec/lap disadvantage.

thats a 3 sec turn around for those that can't do the math.

I think it does reflect teh greater across the board quality since the manufacturers entered. reliablity vastly better but must be contributing to the depressin ferrari must be experiencing. that the 2005 for all its faults is a fantastically well engineered/ designed car

just not fast enough and only now has the average reliabilty needed in modern f1 also.

and while we're at it whatever happened to wet f1 races?