36 replies to this topic

[Barry Boor]

A surprising fact has just presented itself to me.

Looking at Sports Car race results, for something else, as usual, it suddenly dawned on me that despite the relative might of their factory (and private) teams, the only Italian car to make it to the end of the 1955 24 hour race was a 1.5 litre Osca driven by Cabianca and Sgorbati, that finished 11th.

Admittedly, there were only 11 Italian cars in the race but 1 of 11 seems a very poor return.

[Ray Bell]

Hmmm... and with the added attraction of a high dropout rate among the fastest German cars... you'd think they'd keep them running somehow!

[jj2728]

and speaking of which and as a collector of 1/43 sportscars from the 50s, here's this little italian gem from lemans 1955.
http://www.alpimodel.com/bzr/bz69.html

[T54]

Phil Hill ran his first le Mans in 1955 in this car:



Driving with Maglioli, they holed a radiator, then the clutch went away and that was it.
The model is a 1/32 scale slot car by the French MMK company.
Indeed all the works and private Ferraris went south with a collection of ailments...

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
A surprising fact has just presented itself to me.

Looking at Sports Car race results, for something else, as usual, it suddenly dawned on me that despite the relative might of their factory (and private) teams, the only Italian car to make it to the end of the 1955 24 hour race was a 1.5 litre Osca driven by Cabianca and Sgorbati, that finished 11th.

Admittedly, there were only 11 Italian cars in the race but 1 of 11 seems a very poor return.

Well, the eleven starters consisted of:

Three Maseratis, I think we can all agree Maseratis were unlikely to last 24 hours.

Three works six cylinder Ferraris, (the big six was never very satisfactory). Also one of the Ferraris was driven by Eugenio Castellotti, so was hardly likely to last 24 hours.

Two private four cylinder Ferraris, also not the most reliable prospect.

The OSCA that finished 11th.

A loan Stanguellini.

An unstable Nardi that crashed after 5 laps (was this by any chance the something else you were looking for?).

Not the most competitive bunch to take on Mercedes-Banz and Jaguar.

[Barry Boor]

No, Roger, not the Nardi - I've already got that!

I was looking to see how the D-type lookalike Cunningham C6-R got on. That's another model I have my beadies on....

I wonder if Maserati have the worst overall finishing record of any of the major players that have ever run regularly at Le Mans?

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Roger Clark

Well, the eleven starters consisted of:

Three Maseratis, I think we can all agree Maseratis were unlikely to last 24 hours.

Three works six cylinder Ferraris, (the big six was never very satisfactory). Also one of the Ferraris was driven by Eugenio Castellotti, so was hardly likely to last 24 hours.

Two private four cylinder Ferraris, also not the most reliable prospect.

The OSCA that finished 11th.

A loan Stanguellini.

An unstable Nardi that crashed after 5 laps (was this by any chance the something else you were looking for?).

Not the most competitive bunch to take on Mercedes-Banz and Jaguar.

In case the language police complain about the spelling (the Stanguellini wasn't borrowed, as far as I know), I did try to change it but was prevented by the new 15 minute rule.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Roger Clark
In case the language police complain about the spelling (the Stanguellini wasn't borrowed, as far as I know), I did try to change it but was prevented by the new 15 minute rule.

15 minute rule?

Please elaborate...

[T54]

In case the language police complain about the spelling (the Stanguellini wasn't borrowed, as far as I know), I did try to change it but was prevented by the new 15 minute rule.

Eh, I'll take a 15-minute loan on a Stanguellini any time...

[Ruairidh]

Originally posted by Ray Bell


15 minute rule?

Please elaborate...

There is a new (at least I only noticed it this weekend) protocol on TNF whereby you cannot make any more changes to a post after 15mins have expired.

[Gary Davies]

Originally posted by Ruairidh


There is a new (at least I only noticed it this weekend) protocol on TNF whereby you cannot make any more changes to a post after 15mins have expired.

thats good iT wil incouridge peopel to proof reed there posts moor cairfuly

[JB Miltonian]

Getting back to Barry's original post in this thread, I took a look at the final standings for all 10 LeMans races held in the Fifties, to see how the various Italian firms did. In 10 events, a total of 18 Italian cars made it into the top 10! Terrible!

1950: None
1951: Ferraris 8th and 9th
1952: Ferrari 5th, Lancias 6th and 8th
1953: Ferrari 5th
1954: Ferrari 1st
1955: None
1956: Ferrari 3rd, Maserati 9th
1957: Ferraris 5th and 7th
1958: Ferraris 1st, 6th, and 7th
1959: Ferraris 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th

[dretceterini]

There was a second Nardi at LeMans in 1955 with a crosely engine and a totally different body style. There were also 3 Morettis that were all DNSs

[Barry Boor]

Please, what is a 'crosely' engine?

[Ray Bell]

Hmmm... Barry, this is in the 'Crazy racing engines' thread on the Tech forum, I don't think they'll mind me posting it here...

Originally posted by McGuire
Powell Crosley presenting his sheet-metal wonder to the world...was not a racing engine per se but it did end up powering a lot of race cars...

Note the obvious connection with Mercedes-Benz?

[T54]

I think that the Crosley engines used in the racing cars had a cast engine block after the welded sheet-metal thing was quickly deemed a failure...
Back to Italian cars, there is a very good book by Dominique Pascal, "Ferrari au Mans" that gives a descrition, chassis number and a picture of all Ferraris at the Sarthe circuit from 1949 to 1982.
That's a start anyway...

[dretceterini]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
Please, what is a 'crosely' engine?

It's a typo....it's Crosley

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by dretceterini
There was a second Nardi at LeMans in 1955 with a crosely engine and a totally different body style. There were also 3 Morettis that were all DNSs

As I understand it, the Morettis arrived at the grid too late and were turned away.

[GIGLEUX]

Originally posted by dretceterini
There was a second Nardi at LeMans in 1955 with a crosely engine and a totally different body

?????????????????
Starting number, names of the drivers please.

[D-Type]

Martin Krejcz has a Nardi-Crosley as 'entry not accepted' .
Stefan Örnerdal has it as Number 80 and 'Did not arrive'

[GIGLEUX]

n°80 is not the racing-number in Stefan list but position number in it. As it was not accepted as an entry no racing number, no drivers, no car so it is difficult to compare nothing with the other Nardi!

[dretceterini]

This is the Nardi Crosley that I was thinking of. I believe it was entered in both 1954 and 1955.

http://www.lemansmod...rdi_750.jpg.jpg

[GIGLEUX]

Stu, here the real thing, with the Franco-italian crew Gacon-Damonte, during a pit stop at Le Mans 1954.

[GIGLEUX]

In fact not a pit stop but I think going to the circuit, prior the practise sessions. Some differences: no third headlight and the racing numbers.

[Joe Bosworth]

What is a Crosley? He asks.

Very interesting engine and a bit hard to get much real detail in documents to be found today.

I actually worked on a couple of Crosley race engine in the early Fifties and offer a bit.

In the Thirties Crosley was an industrial family noted for things like radios and refigerators. By 1939 or so they decided to construct and market a small car about the size of the Austin 7. WW2 got in the way but they did develop a very interesting engine as part of the war effort. The story is quite akin to Coventry Climax and the FWA.

For Crosley they ended up at 44 cubic inches, < 750 cc. It had a single over head cam, tower driven. Two really odd things about it. 1. Its block and head was originally constructed of sheet steel stampings, pressed together and "copper brazed" together. It was known as the "Cobra"
2. The head and block were intergral. There was no parting line at the top of the bores so there were no cylinder head bolts. Access to the valves was through the bottom of the cranckcase which in turn was closed by a cast alloy sump. All piston and rod assembly was also through the bottom.

At the end of WW2 the Cora became ti staple engine for the line up vehicles.

The early Cobra engines had a tendency to leak water through the interfaces of the plates. By about 1949 Crosley came out with a cast iron engine to replace the Cobra and these really could be tuned.

Another interesting thing about the Crosley was that they used disk brakes towards their end. Somehow I think these were to be found on their Hotshot, a little two placed doorless sports car that they came out with.

With installing a wilder cam it was not hard to turn the Crosley into the high 6000's. It was inherently reliable. They were also basically light, weighting circa 130 pounds, 60 kilos, ready to fit into a race car. It was not too hard to build a 700 pound race car using a Crosley. Some claimed much lighter but I have my real doubts about how much lighter in the real world.

Twin Amal carbs seemed to work well. Most people found circa 45 horsepower which was pretty good for the day.

They became the staple engine of 750 cc, H mod racing in the US and small power boats. This, and other TNF sites identify that several Italian builders cottoned onto the Crosley as a very suitable 750 cc class engine.

With due credit to the Austin 7 builders I suspect that the Crosley was much more capable but that statement is likely to bring howls of protest.

It only really became superceded with the coming of the two stroke Saabs which could be brought down in size to meet the class requirements.

Regards

[dretceterini]

The Crosley and Saab were used mainly in the US. In Europe in the mid to late 1950s, companies were developing DOHC 750cc motors capable of producing as much as 100 horsepower

[T54]

At the top of the pistons?

[Pils1989]

There is this british Crossley , are they the same that do some single seaters or barchettas now?

[bill moffat]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
No, Roger, not the Nardi - I've already got that!

I wonder if Maserati have the worst overall finishing record of any of the major players that have ever run regularly at Le Mans?

...and since Barry added this entry Maserati have surprised us all and won the 24 hour GT race at Spa. I guess this must be the first ever win by a Maserati in any form of 24 hour race (Fangio at least winning over 12hours at Sebring in 1957) unless anyone knows otherwise.

Incidentally, did any of the Le Mans Type 151 Maseratis survive ? Looking at photos of this behemoth I can only feel great admiration for the drivers who were still the fastest of all down the Mulsanne in 1964...

[ian senior]

Originally posted by Pils1989
There is this british Crossley , are they the same that do some single seaters or barchettas now?

No Antoine, the company on that website doesn't exist any more. I don't know if there is a present-day Crossley company.

[T54]

There is this british Crossley , are they the same that do some single seaters or barchettas now?

It's Crossle not Crossley and they are Irish...
Their website is HERE

T54

[Pils1989]

I'm such a dyslpexic muppet! :

Thank you T54!

[T54]

Welcome to the culb.

[Barry Boor]

[Macca]

Originally posted by bill moffat


...and since Barry added this entry Maserati have surprised us all and won the 24 hour GT race at Spa. I guess this must be the first ever win by a Maserati in any form of 24 hour race (Fangio at least winning over 12hours at Sebring in 1957) unless anyone knows otherwise.

Incidentally, did any of the Le Mans Type 151 Maseratis survive ? Looking at photos of this behemoth I can only feel great admiration for the drivers who were still the fastest of all down the Mulsanne in 1964...

There was a Maserati 151 at the FoS in 1994; the Casner car was completely destroyed, but there is a replica/reconstruction which was featured in 'Sports Car Illustrated' about ten years ago (when they still had articles about racing-cars )


Paul M

[bill moffat]

Apparently 151.003 survives in near-original form in a motor museum in Germany...allegedly a Briggs Cunningham car.

Still amazes me that this car was faster than the GT40's and the 275P's down the Mulsanne in 1964, perhaps a legacy of the earlier Costin involvement ?

[T54]

Apparently 151.003 survives in near-original form in a motor museum in Germany...allegedly a Briggs Cunningham car.

Rosso Bianco. Original, eh?