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1912-14 Peugeots


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#101 Michael Ferner

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 19:20

Were not Peugeot and Lion Peugeot separete entities at one time due to a family rift?


I don't know about a rift, but here's what I wrote as an entry for Peugeot in what was supposed to be a Racing Car A-Z on an earlier website I had started:

Peugeot, Lion Peugeot
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Base Year(s) Manufacturer
Valentigney/Beaulieu (F) 1891-1910 Les Fils de Peugeot Frères

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The Peugeot brothers, Jules and Émile, descendants of a long line of industrial entreprenuers in the region of the French-German border, established "Société Peugeot Frères" in 1842 at Valentigney near Montbéliard with the help of their nephew, Louis Fallot. The company diversified into several fields of mostly metallurgical production, and in 1882 began manufacturing bicycles, which soon became the mainstay of their production line. By this time, the running of the company had passed into the hands of their respective sons, Eugène and Armand, which was reflected in the name change to "Les Fils de Peugeot Frères" in 1891. New factories had been built at Beaulieu and Terre Blanche, and close to 2,000 people worked for Peugeot.

Against this background, Armand Peugeot approached Léon Serpollet in 1889 to supply steam engines for a run of four tricycles, which were subsequently displayed at the Paris World Exhibition in April. They did not meet with public approval, however, but Peugeot met Gottlieb Daimler and Émile Levassor there and they quickly agreed terms: From the following year onwards, Panhard & Levassor were to deliver Daimler-type engines to Valentigney, where they were to be installed in chassis manufactured by Peugeot to a design provided by Daimler.

By 1896, the automobile branch was seperated from the company, and with it went Armand Peugeot (see Société Anonyme des Automobiles Peugeot). Eugène continued producing bicycles and other products, such as sewing machines and tools, together with his sons Pierre, Robert and Jules at Beaulieu. In 1899, motor bikes and tricycles were added to the portfolio, and in 1905 voiturettes under the name of Lion Peugeot (the lion having been a longserving mascot for the family). But since the company was having to pay royalties to Armand and his new company, an effect of the severing formalities, a merger was on the cards and was duly effected in 1910 (see Société Anonyme des Cycles & Automobiles Peugeot).


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Base Year(s) Manufacturer
Audincourt (F) 1896-1910 Société Anonyme des Automobiles Peugeot

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Established April 2, 1896 by Armand Peugeot, this company continued the automobile production line of Les Fils de Peugeot Frères, albeit with engines of their own construction. Within four years, the production rose from 54 units over 156 and 323 to more than 500, making it a very successful operation indeed. But the growth of the passenger car business soon drove it out of the racing scene, until the merger with its mother company in 1910 (see Société Anonyme des Cycles & Automobiles Peugeot).



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Base Year(s) Manufacturer
Audincourt (F) 1910-xxxx Société Anonyme des Cycles & Automobiles Peugeot

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#102 robert dick

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 07:43

Thanks for Bradley's Motor Racing Memories.

Just a few remarks:
- The description in The Motor mentioning Vasselot as designer of the 7.6-litre Peugeot was written by Bradley who was the continental correspondent of The Motor.
- In interviews published in 1913, Boillot and Goux explicitly pointed out that Ernest Henry was responsible for the design.
- In 1913 the French magazine La Vie Automobile described Ernest Henry as "directeur du bureau de dessin et des ateliers", as director of the drawing office and the workshop.
- From the drivers, maybe from Zuccarelli in particular, came the idea of the three-point mounting of the engine-gearbox complex in combination with the Hotchkiss axle.
- The bore and stroke limits for the 1910 GP de l'ACF, which was cancelled, were 110 x 200 mm.
- The Labor-Picker engines were just one of several applications of Charles Picker's T-head design. For example, Guyot drove a 3-litre Picker-Janvier in the 1912 GP de France at Le Mans. In 1913 the Picker-Janvier was renamed Anasagasti and started in the 1913 Coupe de L'Auto.


#103 fixedhead

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 09:49

Here's an interesting page-

http://www.beta.face...id=246417479524

#104 fixedhead

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 10:10

A potted history of voiturette racing 1909 1914 (courtesy of www.uniquecarsandparts.com.au)

Lion-Peugeot

Lion-Peugeots of cathedralesque appearance won all three main voiturette races of 1909, the Sicilian Cup and the Catalan Cup at Sitges falling to Goux, while his team mate Guippone took the Coupe de L'Auto itself. Fastest car in the Coupe race was Boillot's Lion-Peugeot, with cylinder proportions like a stove-pipe, and six valves-three inlet, three exhaust-crammed into its cylinder-head. The high, narrow and ugly Lion-Peugeots continued to dominate the 1910 results, with 'Boillot, Guippone and Goux coming in one-two-three in Sicily, and Goux and Boillot in the first two places at Sitges: but, significantly, multi-cylinder cars were now getting a look in, as third at Sitges was an Hispano-Suiza driven by Zuccarell Even longer strokes were permissible that year, and Lion-Peugeot responded by fielding V4 racers with 65 mm x 260 mm engines (3451cc) which proved
highly unstable, with fatal results for Guippone. However, these freakish machines were soundly trounced by Zuccarelli's 65 mm x 200 mm Hispano (2655cc), which finished first in the Coupe de l'Auto, followed by Goux's twin-cylinder Lion-Peugeot and Chasagne's Hispano. Boillot's V4 Lion-Peugeot was fourth. During 1911-1913, the Coupe de l'Auto was once again the only front-line voiturette race, but now a maximum capacity of 3 litres was imposed, while bores and strokes had to fall within the ratios 1:1 to 2:1; in 1912, there was a minimum weight of 800 kg, in 1913 a maximum weight of 900 kg and a ban on forced induction. Delage were victorious in 1911, while Sunbeam came one-two-three in the 1912 Coupe de l'Auto, which earned them fourth-fifth-sixth places in the Grand Prix, which was run concurrently with the Coupe to ensure a good entry. Thus voiturettes were now able to defeat the racing monsters: and for 1914 Grand Prix cars had become virtual voiturettes, with a capacity limit of 4. 5 litres. The 1913 Coupe de l' Auto went to Peugeot, as did the Grand Prix: but voiturettes were now once again growing into full-size cars, and so 'Grand Prix' races for those most ephemeral of machines, the cyclecars,
entered the racing calendar. With the departure of the Coupe de l'Auto, the great days of voiturette racing were over. The series had proved a major catalyst in the development of the high-efficiency internal combustion engine, and subsequent events bearing the name voiturette were not nearly as significant. As formula changes lowered the cylinder capacity of the Formula One racing cars of the day, so the need for a voiturette class diminished, though the term survived throughout the 1920s and 1930s - the ERA was just about the last car to bring any lustre to the term 'voiturette'. But with all its freaks and failures, it was the Coupe de l'Auto which had really supplied the stimulus to the designers and manufacturers-without it, engine development could well have lagged in that doldrum period when the Grand Prix was in limbo.


#105 fixedhead

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 11:02

Here's the well known picture of the V twin at Brooklands in 1910, with the overhead exhaust-


Posted Image


A picture of the V twin engine with a vertical shaft driving a vertical camshaft operating the forward exhaust valves through rockers, then bevels to an overhead horizontal camshaft operating the overhead inlet valves through rockers and presumably another pair of bevels driving another vertical camshaft for the rear exhaust valves. The exhaust system has been lowered in this picture.


Posted Image

#106 fixedhead

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 11:05

This is the V4 Does anyone have an engine picture or spec?

http://gallica.bnf.f...gne 1910.langEN


Zuccarelli and the Hispano at Boulogne 1910


http://gallica.bnf.f...gne 1910.langEN

Edited by fixedhead, 25 June 2011 - 10:23.


#107 fixedhead

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 11:09

Just some thoughts-
What if the L3 preceded the L76 and was conceived in plan if not in fact before Henry was engaged?

#108 robert dick

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 12:03

The Agence Meurisse portrait of Ernest Henry
http://gallica.bnf.f...8/btv1b9021389z
is dated 27 October 1912 with the comment "ingénieur de la maison Peugeot".
The Agence Meurisse made such portraits only if the person was important. It means that Ernest Henry was the head of Peugeot's racing car department, already in 1912. Why especially the plain bearing crankshaft of the 7.6-litre didn't match his earlier and later designs has to be clarified.

There should not be any objection that the 1912 3-litre was designed/built before the 7.6-litre.

The 7.6-litre prototype photo
http://gallica.bnf.f...8/btv1b9020860w
is dated 2 June 1912.


#109 fixedhead

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 11:02

Both the V twin Lion Peugeot and the L3 have their valve assembles mounted in detachable cages which are quiet similar both having an oval flange and secured to the block by two studs and nuts. The L76 looks quiet different with circular cages screwed in if the valves were not seated directly in the block. We can only see the induction side of the L3, the exhaust side is probably the same. This suggests the same designer being responsible for both. I think the designers responsible for the Lion racing voiturette's were Verdet and Michaux. Perhaps Zuccarelli's influence was the adoption of the in line cylinder configuration, with this the only convenient place for the porting is in line on each side of the block, there not being room for the scattered valve placement of the previous designs. Delage being the exception with his exhausts in line overhead and and even he conformed, by 1914 they were on the side with two overhead camshafts. This placement of the porting places the valves in line above the combustion chamber, a single camshaft and rockers could have been used, who's idea it was to use two camshafts is a matter for further investigation.
Lion Peugeot had been very successful and won all three main voiturette races of 1909, the Sicilian Cup and the Catalan Cup at Sitges falling to Goux, while his team mate Guippone took the Coupe de L'Auto itself. Fastest car in the Coupe race was Boillot's Lion-Peugeot. The high, narrow Lion Peugeots continued to dominate the 1910 results, with Boillot, Guippone and Goux coming in one-two-three in Sicily, and Goux and Boillot in the first two places at Sitges, but significantly, multi cylinder cars were now getting a look in, as third at Sitges was an Hispano-Suiza driven by Zuccarelli. Even longer strokes were permissible that year, and Lion Peugeot responded by fielding V4 racers with 65 mm x 260 mm engines 3451cc which proved highly unstable, with fatal results for Guippone. However, these machines were soundly trounced by Zuccarelli's 65 mm x 200 mm Hispano 2655cc, which finished first in the Coupe de l' Auto, followed by Goux's twin-cylinder Lion-Peugeot and Chasagne's Hispano, Boillot's V4 Lion-Peugeot was fourth. So the new V4 could do no better than fourth, it must have been obvious that the day of the ultra long stroke engines was over and this just as we are told that Zuccarelli had had a falling out with Birkigt and was looking for new friends...

#110 fixedhead

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 11:28

Here's a nice picture showing the Delage horizontal valve gear. A modified Delage in America the Weightman Special Mrs Blevins the driver. Was this a 1913 GP car I think the inlet ports were vertical on the 1911 car. What did Dalage do in 1912?



Posted Image

Edited by fixedhead, 21 June 2011 - 15:42.


#111 Tim Murray

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 13:15

I think it should be Giuppone (not Guippone).

#112 fixedhead

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 13:20

From Borgeson The Classic Twin Cam Engine Page 43 to 47.



One of the scions of the house of Peugeot was Armand, born in 1849- As a young engineer working in England he witnessed the beginnings of the bicycle
revolution there. He saw its potential very clearly and in 1885 persuaded the directors of the family business — the Societe Peugeot Freres — to undertake
bicycle manufacture. Starting at the very time of the birth of the Daimler lightweight engine, Peugeot began building pedal-propelled tricycles and
quadricycles as well as two-wheelers. Armand Peugeot became interested in motorisation and, in collaboration with the : pioneer Serpollet, he built a few
steam-powered tricycles. He exhibited one of these at that crossroads of machine civilisation, the Exposition Universelle in Paris in 1889. It was there
that he was able to observe in operation one of the very first canots automobile, a launch powered by one of the improved Daimler narrow-angle V-rwin
engines. It persuaded him of the superiority of petrol over steam for vehicular use. The machine-tool manufacturing firm of Panhard et Levassor had
acquired the French rights to Daimler's patents with the intention of producing motor vehicles as well as engines alone. Panhard et Levassor needed a
source for everything but the power unit and turned to bicycle manufacturer Peugeot. During that same year of 1889 Messrs. Daimler and Levassor together
drove a Daimler car from Cannstat to visit Armand Peugeot at his home at Valentigney, due east of Paris and not far from the Franco-Swiss border towns of
Belfort and Basel. The agreement by which Peugeot became P & L's supplier was consummated, along with a second one which permitted the Peugeot company to
manufacture automobiles on its own behalf, obtaining its French-built Daimler engines from Panhard et Levassor in Paris. In 1891 Peugeot produced its first
Daimler-engined quadricycles. The following year the management of the firm passed to Armand and his three cousins Pierre, Robert, and Jules and its name
was changed to the Ste. des Fils de Peugeot Freres. In 1894 the world's first formally organised motor race was held between Paris and Rouen, a distance of
79 miles, and, following the large and victorious steam rig of Albert de Dion, little Peugeots finished second and third. From the petrol-engine standpoint
Peugeot was the winner and its overnight fame was so great that the company was able to sell 40 cars that year. It is worth noting that among the horde of
cyclists who pedalled along to spectate was Robert Peugeot, aged 25. Another eye-witness to this historic contest was Papa Daimler himself. Armand Peugeot
devoted increasing amounts of his time and energy to the automotive side of the firm's business, convinced that an enormous future lay in that direction.
His cousins worried about the encroachment of the new-fangled horseless carriage upon their capacity to produce goods of risk-free general acceptance.
There was a rift and in 1896 Armand left the company and founded a new one which he named the Ste. des Automobiles Peugeot. He offered a large line, from
small cars to heavy trucks, and prospered. In 1899 the courage was found at the other company, Peugeot Freres, to add motorcycles to the two-wheel line of
products. By 1905 it was clear to almost anyone that the automobile was indeed replacing the horse and the cousins elected to enter the light-car
manufacturing field, introducing a pair of charming one cylinder two-seaters in 1906. They gave them the brand name of Lion, the heraldic Lion of Belfort
having been the firm's registered trade mark for its line of hand tools since 1858 and of its bicycles since 1889- It was the Lion marque which, under
the administration of Robert Peugeot, played one of the leading roles in the Coupe de I'Auto series and which mothered The Charlatans. Press and public
preferred to call the cars Lion Peugeots, creating a confusion which still reigns today. To compound the ambiguity the breach which had separated the two
houses was healed and in 1910 they merged to form the new Ste. Anonyme des Automobiles et Cycles Peugeot. But the Lion marque was kept alive until the final
liquidation of its inventory during the war. The famous Bugatti-designed Bebe Peugeot, by the way, was born not a Peugeot but a Lion.
Having described in Motoring Racing Memories how Jules Goux had "guaranteed to design, build and prepare a set of Grand Prix racing cars at £4,000 each,
all the work to be done outside the factory, and accounts to be rendered only to the head of the company" Bradley continued: 'Agreed,' said M. Robert
Peugeot. 'At Suresnes we have workshops which have been used by M. Verdet for experiments on the Rhone engine. Rhone is going to link up with Gnome to
make the Gnome & Rhone aviation engine; thus the shops at Suresnes can become your headquarters.' According to the Georgano Encyclopedia, Rossel was a
Peugeot engineer who in 1910 formed a joint company with Peugeot to make aero engines. The Ste. des Constructions Aeriennes Rossel-Peugeot had its shops
in Suresnes, on the far edge of the Bois de Boulogne, just west of Paris. On page 469 of what had just been renamed La France Automobile et Aerienne for
1910 an article on the new Rossel-Peugeot engine begins: "Aviation meetings do not only have the result of causing progress in aeroplane construction,
increasing the rapidity of their takeoff and of their speed, but they also very forcibly stimulate the zeal of our engine builders.
"Who would doubt that there are a good fifty aero engines already running? The meetings at Rouen and Rheims only had ten different types to show us,
but many others are undergoing tests, final tuning, or are under construction." Robert Peugeot and company had lost no time in getting in on the ground
floor of the aeroplane-engine business, but Bradley's facts were garbled. The company which made the Le Rhone engine was not founded until September 1912,
nor did its relationship with Gnome begin before June 1914. Apparently Peugeot dropped Rossel and his ideas for rotary engines, while Louis Verdet saw
what was wrong with them and went off to create Le Rhone.Verdet, a native of Lyons, was one of the two engineers responsible for the Lion racing cars.
He had distinguished himself with the creation of the 80 X 280(3.5 to one stroke/bore ratio!) twin cylinder machine which had made its debut in the
Coppa Florio delle Vetturette of 1909. The engine had eight valves and enabled Giuppone to finish second in that brutal, 185 mile edition of the
Targa Florio. These engines were fabricated in the Rossel shops and the cars employing them were built and headquartered there. Source: Yvelin.
The car which took first place in the 1909 Sicilian race, then first in the Copa Catalunya in Spain, then first in the Coupe de I'Auto and usually driven
by Goux, dated from the previous year and was powered by a 15° V-twin, designed in the pure old Gottlieb Daimler tradition and in the new Peugeot motorcycle
tradition by engineer Gratien Michaux. This veteran also had to his credit the design of the original in-house Peugeot engine, the horizontal, parallel
twin which replaced Daimler engines in Peugeot cars in 1897. His Lion racing machines were designed and built at the factory in Beaulieu, a small community
in the departement of the Doubs, literally within walking distance of the Peugeot family's other considerable properties in Audincourt, Montbeliard, Sochaux,
and finally Valentigney, where both Goux and Boillot were born. It must indeed have come as a shock to engineers Michaux and Verdet, whose racing
voiturettes were of rather world-beating calibre, when a trio of mere driver-mechanics was brought in and they were told that their services no longer
would be needed in the racing sector. In the caste system of the day manual workers of the sort might speak to an engineer only with great deference.
That they should have ideas and the brashness to express them was unthinkable. I visualise a scenario along these lines: Robert Peugeot and his brothers
had had their chance and has misjudged the automobile.at a time when an important position was open to them on the ground floor of that industry.
From bicycles they did get in on the ground floor of the motorcycle industry, which was fast becoming as appreciable to them as possession of a large
chunk of the ground floor of the bicycle industry already was. Their motorcycle experience had taught them about small engines and getting performance out
of them. This enabled them to make a belated but well-grounded start in automobiles, at which they were doing well. Now was the historic moment to stake
out a ground floor position in aero engines. The Verdet/Rossel adventure had been a deception, and time was rushing past. Comes earnest, honest Jules Goux,
a young man of confidence, whose family has been in the service of the Peugeot family for a very long time. He is a patient, serious, dependable worker.
He is seconded — or, rather, dominated — by that scandalously handsome, charming, intelligent Boillot boy, full of ambition, dynamism, and the power to
organise and command. And their young Italian friend, whose clever head is full of Hispano-Suiza's methods and tricks. They have an idea for something
brand new, and it really looks as though it should work. If it does, the company will know how to move with it. With the purse strings in our hands we
can always impose our own better judgement. They are a good and capable team and with any luck at all the publicity from racing will amortise the
investment soon enough. And with a little more luck. . . millions! En avant\ What form did the new relationship take? Until now the trio had been on the
Lion payroll, working as test drivers and mechanics when not required for racing. But now they were contracting to build a series of cars for a fixed fee
of £4,000 per unit — $20,000 1911 gold dollars. By what factor do you multiply that sum to get the equivalent in today's money?
Robert Peugeot really was looking for something. As we have seen, he had made a similar deal with another bright young fellow who was no engineer but who
was bristling with original ideas for high performance cars and engines. Name of Bugatti. Guarantee them both the agreed-upon price for one prototype and
let results speak for themselves. The winner then becomes a contractor — a private constructor of racing cars and the operator of a private racing stable,
working under contract to Peugeot. Such arrangements were to become commonplace in the future — Scuderia Ferrari to name one well-known example. This one
was what Rene Thomas always referred to formally as L'Equipe Boillot, doing a job for Peugeot. All inputs are clear on the point that Boillot was the
organisational brain and the boss. They agree that Zuccarelli was a rich source of ideas. No contemporary source suggests that Goux contributed any ideas
at all. And Ernest Henry? He was hired by Boillot as an engineering draftsman. Later he would be referred to in the press as "the great Peugeot engineer",
but he really worked for L'Equipe Boillot. If he ever was on the direct Peugeot payroll it was probably after the outbreak of war, when the equipe broke
up and he began drawing up a V8 aero engine for Peugeot to look at and reject but perhaps to file for future reference. To my knowledge the contemporary
press ignored the very existence of Ernest Henry prior to 1915, when the Charlatan epic was nothing but a radiant memory. We have, happily, an evaluation
of Henry by an authority who is eminently competent. In his article on Albert Morin, Harry Mundy wrote in the Autocar for 25 September 1969:
"W. F. Bradley has always given credit to the three drivers as being primarily responsible for the 1912—1914 Peugeots: referring to Henry as 'a draftsman,
nothing more'. The dividing line between a draftsman and a designer is a very thin one indeed. A man who lays out the initial scheme on paper, stresses
the various parts if only to relatively simple formulae, and produces drawings for a component such as a cylinder head, with the complicated water
passages properly developed so that the foundry can produce sound castings is, like Henry, a first-class designer."
No one was around to document the beginnings of the epic, and they are thoroughly hazy. One immutable point of reference is the neatly round displacement
of the original GP car. It was Yvelin who found that The Charlatans began their system of nomenclature by calling this model the L76, for its perfectly
round 7.600 litres of displacement. It is the product of a bore and stroke of 110 X 200mm.

1911 must have been a pivotal year at Peugeot.

http://gallica.bnf.f...=peugeot.langEN

http://gallica.bnf.f...=peugeot.langEN

Edited by fixedhead, 21 June 2011 - 15:43.


#113 fixedhead

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 10:20

Lets say the L3 was designed and built late 1910 and into 1911, the next stage in the development of the racing voiturette's to meet the new regulations for
1911/1913. Verdet had left to develop the Rossel aviation engine that leaves Michaux and the new boy Zuccarelli fresh from Hispano with new input of idea's. This
just at the time when Peugeot was absorbing Lion. Am I correct in saying that Robert Peugeot emerged as head of the company? Now Robert either wished to or was
persuaded to have a go at the Grand Prix so the decision was made to build a team of cars for the 1912 Grand Prix. The Rossel branch of the company that had
produced and run the voiturette's had been disbanded so a new orginisation was formed to carry on. This organisation becoming known as the charlatans.For some reason
Michaux was not available so Henry was engaged to scale up the L3 in so doing he refined the porting and valve gear, the resulting car was something of a success and
Henry was much feted and respected. So Henry then said "I think I can do better", result the 1913 cars and the emergence of the fully formed Henry racing engine
that was at the forefront of its field for next eight years.

Just a few thoughts, what do you think?

#114 robert dick

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Posted 23 June 2011 - 06:17

The facts:
- "La Vie Automobile" wrote in 1913 that Ernest Henry was director of the drawing office and the workshop (of the Peugeot racing car department);
- in 1913, in "La Vie Automobile", "The Motor" and "Motor Age", Goux and Boillot repeatedly claimed that Henry had been responsible for the 1912 cars;
- the Agence Meurisse portrait of Henry is dated October 1912.

So Henry was technical director of the Peugeot racing car department which built the twin-cam four-valve cars, from the outset. Henry designed the 1912 cars.
Vasselot was mentioned in 1912 because he was "chief engineer" at Peugeot, meaning that Vasselot was responsible for everything engineered within the Peugeot company, including the work of Ernest Henry.
The plain bearing crankshaft of the 1912 7.6-litre and the two-valve head of the 1912 3-litre were development steps showing that the final solutions (in 1913/-14: two-piece crankshaft in ball bearings with plain big ends; twin-cam four-valve head, camshafts driven by spur gears) didn't come up overnight but had to be worked out.

The contribution of the drivers, in particular of Zuccarelli, was the three-point mounting of the engine-gearbox complex in combination with the Hotchkiss axle. Boillot and Goux pointed to the importance of this chassis concept. (the 1927 Delage used the same chassis concept)

The designs of Verdet or Michaux were completely different.
(Boudreaux-Verdet engine at http://forums.autosp...howtopic=135971 )

#115 fixedhead

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Posted 23 June 2011 - 11:20

Found mention of another V4 for 1911 which I had overlooked-

The 1909 Coupe de l'Auto des Voiturettes was not in the best tradition of the series because the regulations encouraged long stroke engines by offering
manufacturers the choice of long or short stroke engines, and making the capacity of the long stroke option 500 c.c. more than the short stroke one. The
winning Peugeot had cylinder dimensions of 100 x 250mm. Charles Faroux, advisor and decision maker realised the error of his ways in 1910. He also realised
there would be greater publicity potential if the race were both longer and catered for more traditional cars.
The regulations for the 1910 Coupe de l'Auto race were considerably revised, so much so that the engines built for the event influenced sports car engine
design forthe next two decades! Briefly Faroux made both four and six cylinder engines eligible, while single and two-cylinder iterations were excluded.
The four cylinder engines could have bore and stroke dimensions from 98.5 x 98.5mm to 78.1 x 156.2mm on a sliding scale, while six-cylinder units were to
vary between 86 X 86mm and 68.2 X 136.4mm.In no case was the capacity to exceed 3 litres. There was a provison that if any entry had already been listed
in its maker's catalogue with cylinders which exceeded this ratio, it would be admitted. The minimum car weight was 800kg (l,763Ib) without fuel or spares;
while mudguards with a minimum width of 20cm (8in.) had to be fitted. Since this 1911 Coupe de l'Auto race was for proper motor cars the voiturette
connotation was dropped and it became a race for voitures legeres (light cars). The venue was Boulogne-sur-Mer once again - the 1909 and 1910 races had
been held there on the short circuit but the course was lengthened to 52km. Race didtance was 12 laps, about 387 miles. Boulogne was chosen as the venue
in the hope of attracting entries from the other side of the Channel. Thanks to the organizers of the TT and, more particuularly, the existence of
Brooklands, British manufacturers had become competition minded and among their entries were works teams from Sunbeam, Vauxhall, Arrol-Johnston and Calthorpe.
Chief among the French competitors were Peugeot and Delage, but there were others from Cote, Gregoire, Alcyon, FIF and Mathis, Excelsoir from Belgium were
also represented. All were of considerable technical merit but attention was concentrated on the past winners Peugeot and Delage. Peugeot repeated the V4
configuration of the previous year but with the more restrained cylinder dimensions of 78 X 156mm. The Delages, on the other hand, were completely new.
This was the first four-cylinder racing engine by their engineer Arthur-Leon Michelat and broke new ground in many directions. One of these was the use of
horizontal valves on either side of the cylinder heads operated by camshafts in the crankcase and transmitting motion through push rods and bell cranks.
Four of these Delages, the type X, were built and entered for the race with drivers Paul Bablot, Albert Guyot, Rene Thomas and Victor Rigal. They were
confronted by V4 Peugeots in the hands of Georges Boillot, Jules Goix, Paulo Zuccarelli and Rene Hanriot. There was no doubt in the mind of the huge crowd
that the winner would come from among these eight cars. In the race Boillot, as ever, set the pace followed, briefly and to the delight of British
spectators, by Burgess in the Calthorpe and then by Goux and Bablot in the Delage which not only sounded good but looked a good deal steadier on the road
than the lofty Peugeots. Peugeot quickly lost one man when Zuccarelli ran out of road and turned over. Burgess disappeared from the leader board, but not
from the race, on the second lap and Bablot moved into second place with Guyot supplanting Goux. Soon the Delages had four of the first six positions,
Thomas had moved up behind Bablot and Rigal displaced Goux. The needle match was between Boillot and Bablot. Halfway through the race trouble struck the
leader when he had to stop to change a wheel on the circuit. He came into the pits at the same time as Bablot, who had started later. The Delage driver had
a shorter stop and got away ahead of the Peugeot. From then on the race was his despite brilliant driving by Boillot. A sweeping triumph for Delage was
somewhat marred when Rigal's transmission brake seized on the eleventh lap.

http://gallica.bnf.f... peugeot.langEN

This car still has chain drive. The influence of Zuccarelli was the adoption of the Hotchkiss drive, could he also have had some influence on use of the in line engine? Look closely at the valve gear and the cages look very similar to the ones used on the V twin and I guess on the V four's too (any one any pictures) where I think the designer was Michaux
This would make L3 build later than I speculated. The Peugeot racing organisation must have been very busy 1911/1912. I recall a mention, I think it was Borgeson, that the L76 was bearly ready by race day.

#116 fixedhead

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Posted 24 June 2011 - 11:23

Now that we have an engine picture of the L3 we can see that the engine is very un Henry like. I am just suggesting that the L3 might have been designed if not built before Henry joined the organisation. To look at the L76 as a scaled up and refined version of the L3 fits the bill, to view it the other way round does not the development would be retrograde. "who's idea it was to use two camshafts is a matter for further investigation", I should have written speculation, Henry had experience with twin camshaft engines but so did Zuccarelli allthough in both cases T head engines. Can anyone find any pictures/drawings of the two V4 engines? I have found nothing yet but then I have no access to periodicals of the time. The 1910 cars 65 mm x 260 mm 3451cc extreme bore stroke ratio might have been developments of the V twin. The 1911 cars 78 X 156mm seem to be quite different, if you study the pictures from the Bibliothèque Nationale there is an exhaust on each side of the car emerging from the bonnet much lower than ever before suggesting ports below the valves at least for the exhausts, wish we could see what was happening. This could be another stage in the development of the marque's racing cars,which had gradualy evolved rather than the L76 being a leap forward.


http://gallica.bnf.f...eot 1911.langEN



http://gallica.bnf.f...eot 1911.langEN

#117 fixedhead

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 11:52


Boillot 1910.
This must be the long stroke V4, 65 mm x 260 mm engines 3451cc. The exhausts appear to be venting through holes in the top of the bonnet, vertical exhaust ports so the valve gear was probably similar to the V twin. Has anyone seen an engine picture of the 1911 shorter stroke V4? I cannot find one.


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#118 Doug Nye

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 18:01

I am staggered to see, today, that there is apparently NO Wikipedia entry for Ernest Henry. Considering some of the nonentities who are covered in extenso there I am surprised... As long as one installs a pretty comprehensive BS filter I must say that Wikipedia is these days infinitely better than when I first encountered it, when it was almost universally DREADFUL.

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 29 June 2011 - 18:09.


#119 robert dick

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 06:16

3-litre Lion-Peugeot engine, 1911 Coupe de L'Auto:

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#120 fixedhead

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 11:09

Interesting thanks Robert, downdraught inlet manifold. OHV with rockers, position of looks like they would have to be pushrod. Not an overhead camshaft in sight.

#121 fixedhead

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 11:18

To step back a year, here are some more pictures of the 1909/10 V twins. In the first picture the chap immediately to the right of the car has his left arm through the gap between radiator and engine adjusting something. This gives some idea of scale, the radiator cap is almost at shoulder level. The designers at this time appear to have scant regard for the centre of gravity, the engine appears to be carried in a subframe mounted above the chassis side rails!


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#122 fixedhead

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 12:49

For Robert- just found this

http://pilotosmuerto...-argentina.html

#123 fixedhead

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 13:00

Is this the first of the 1912 three litres? Rene Thomas in the drivers seat. Newly bodied by the look of it, unpainted except for the tail, perhaps reused from a previous life. The chassis is quite different to any previous or later car.

http://classicsracin...E_art_3263.html

Here it is again at Boulogne, so at least one car had a pointed tail.

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#124 bradbury west

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Posted 04 July 2011 - 14:54

I will post pictures later, but at the Festival of Speed there was a new replica built in the last 10 years from original drawings found in the Sochaux archives of 1912 Peugeot 2 cyl motor cycle with dohc and exposed valves/springs. I mentioned it to the owner of the Peugeot Indycar. Perhaps their archives and drawings identify who drew the engines etc.
Roger Lund

#125 bradbury west

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Posted 04 July 2011 - 23:30

See post above. It may all be a wild goose chase.....
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I have a couple of others of the whole bike from both sides which will crop for the engine if required.
Photo copyright Roger Lund.
Roger Lund

#126 fixedhead

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Posted 05 July 2011 - 10:57

Roger thats good news, perhaps there are other drawings, if so that would answer a lot of questions. Please post more pictures of the motorcycle it looks good.

#127 fixedhead

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Posted 05 July 2011 - 11:33

Here's Thomas again at Dieppe June 1912. There are two spare wheels carried in the tail, a feature revived for the 1914 race.


http://gallica.bnf.f...peugeot .langEN

Thomas seems to have joined the team in 1912 to drive the L3, only two of the team to survived the first world war. Zuccarelli died in 1913 crashing one of the team cars during a test drive. Boillot was shot down and killed in 1916, by then a fighter pilot. Goux died in 1965 and Thomas dying in September 1975.



#128 fixedhead

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Posted 05 July 2011 - 11:57

Courtesy of Borgeson "The Classic Twin Cam Engine" page 20.

Marc Birkigt of Geneva had founded or helped to found Hispano-Suiza in Barcelona in 1904. Twenty six year old Pilleverdier was his "technical collaborator". In about 1908 Hispano's directors entertained the idea of setting up a factory in northern Italy and Pilleverdier was sent there to make an analysis of the situation. While in Milan he took his personal Hispano car to a public garage for routine service, where the work was done by a very intelligent and charming young apprentice from Brescia, Paolo Zuccarelli. When the time came for the Frenchman to return to Barcelona the young mechanic begged to be taken along, and he was. He became a valued employee of Hispano-Suiza, although it is hardly likely that the great Birkigt took much time away from his executive duties personally to train Zuccarelli. Like his mentor, who raced under the hispanised name of Pilleverde, he became an excellent competition driver. Both names are prominent in the records of voiturette racing. Peugeot, or Lion-Peugeot, was one of the top-contending marques in small-car competition, its stable of drivers consisting of Boillot, Goux and Giosue Giuppone. This trio frequently raced against the Hispano team, the last occasion being the Coupe des Voiturettes de I'Auto at Boulogne-sur-Mer in September of 1910. The event was an extremely historic one. Two days before the race Giuppone was killed in practice. The race was won by Zuccarelli, whose Hispano T-head four was the first multi-cylinder car ever to win an important voiturette contest, thus becoming a trend-setter. Birkigt is said to have decided to rest on these laurels and to give up racing for an indefinite period. Be that true or not, the Peugeot drivers invited the sympathetic and gifted Zuccarelli to fill the vacancy left by Giuppone. He accepted and made Paris his new home. Back in Barcelona the Boulogne victory was followed by a strike which threatened to tie up the Hispano plant interminably. The company's directors decided that the time for a foreign branch definitely had come and they opted for the Paris region. Pilleverdier was sent there with the responsibility of securing the necessary premises and it was he who found and acquired the old car barn of the Cie. Generale des Omnibus in the Rue Cave in Levallois. This pied-a-terre in the automotive capital of the world was a functioning Hispano subsidiary by April of 1911. Then something happened, Pilleverdier told Yvelin vaguely, which caused relations between himself and the company to go_sour; Birkigt showed clear signs of wanting to be rid of him, and without delay. Pilleverdier, meanwhile, had re-established contact with his old protege, Zuccarelli, as a result of which — in his own words — "I entered chez Peugeot where, during that golden age of 1911-1914, I had the title of Director of the Racing Department." According to Yvelin, who had Jules Goux as a rather good primary source, Ernest Henry joined Peugeot at the same time as Zuccarelli. This coincidence, plus that of Henry and Birkigt both having come from Geneva, has led some writers to speculate and others to decree that Henry had come, with Zuccarelli, from Hispano in Barcelona to Peugeot. Bradley was not one of these but he did make an issue of the point that the Charlatans — and particularly Zuccarelli — had conceived their radical new engine before they engaged their draftsman. Both Bradley and Pilleverdier paid tribute to Zuccarelli's mechanical talent. Boillot had that sort of talent, plus qualities which spontaneously made him the leader and ultimate decision-maker of the little team. Goux was one of the best drivers that any country ever produced but no one seems to have claimed that he contributed important ideas to the great work. Robert Peugeot, having been persuaded by Goux, still only authorised the construction of a single prototype at the outset. He simultaneously invited the designer of the Type BP Peugeot -promptly nicknamed the Bebe — Ettore Bugatti, also to see what he could do in the way of creating a potential winner of the same general type. Bradley recorded that, in the runoff between the two rivals for Peugeot patronage, the Bugatti's best speed was about 99 mph, while that of the Charlatans' creation was superior by more than 15 mph. Having won that contest and the Peugeot name for the car which they had concocted, their otherwise untried 7.6 litre machine finished the all-important 1912 GP de 1'ACF at Dieppe about 13 minutes ahead of the favourite, Wagner's formidable 14-litre Fiat. That Wednesday, 26 June 1912, of course was the birthday of the twin-cam engine. And what had been Henry's role? Bradley said that he was over-rated, uninventive, and "merely a draftsman". Thomas said that he was under-rated, full of ideas, and that none of the drivers was capable of designing an engine. Pilleverdier, head of the Peugeot racing department at that precise period, told Yvelin: "Henry was a model, even though Bradley minimised his role. He was truly creative. The peculiarities of the combustion chamber and valve train belonged exclusively to him." And those features, of course, are the heart and soul of the twin-cam engine. Zuccarelli was killed in practice for the GP de 1'ACF in June of 1913. The spirit of the tiny team lost its former zest and with the outbreak of war Boillot and Goux went directly into military service. Peugeot's racing department was closed and Pilleverdier was placed in charge of the firm's aero-engine factory at Levallois. The non-belligerent Swiss, Henry, followed him there, where he undertook the design of a Charlatan-type V8 power plant. He was the quiet, introverted, sole remaining member of the old team, which had been anathema to Peugeot's engineering staff. Company policy toward the design innovations of The Charlatans would be difficult to explain. The race cars were sold on the open market at the end of each competition season and, when a new replacement was available, even in mid-season. Thus whatever was original in these machines entered almost immediately into the public domain. I have searched diligently and it seems nothing was protected by patents. Henry found himself alone, except for Pilleverdier, in a jungle of corporate politics. His V8 engine was torn to pieces bycompany engineers and pronounced a "failure". He left Peugeot in 1915. While this had been going on the firm's engineering department found some revenge perhaps in assigning the team of Chamuseau, Giauque, and Gremillon to design a Charlatan-type V8. For all that anyone knows it was a revision of Henry's "failure". In any case it is the one described by Glenn Angle, and it was a success, pulling 230 bhp from its 11.3 litres. According to company records, 400 of them were built, mainly for powering Voisin bombers. Then the French military authorities decided to favour the simpler, single-cam Hispano V8, 8,060 of which were built under licence by Peugeot. Quite unexpectedly, while browsing in the old Musee de 1'Air at Chalais-Meudon, I stumbled upon a pristine cutaway display specimen of the pure-Charlatan Peugeot V8. It may be seen today in the new Musee de 1'Air at Le Bourget.


#129 fixedhead

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Posted 05 July 2011 - 12:04


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#130 bradbury west

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 18:00

Roger thats good news, perhaps there are other drawings, if so that would answer a lot of questions. Please post more pictures of the motorcycle it looks good.

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Click on the image, then click again for a very large view to crop for just the engine
Copyright Roger Lund
Roger Lund


#131 fixedhead

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 10:28

Thank you Roger, different arrangement for the motorcycle, looks like the power is taken from the crankshaft centre to a half engine speed shaft. What medium drives the camshafts? Does not appear to be any bearing bosses cast into the drive casing for spur gears, inverted tooth chain perhaps.

#132 fixedhead

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 11:01

Back to the L3.
Points of similarity between the L3 and the Hispano. Lower build giving lower centre of gravity, flat fronted honeycomb radiator, inline cylinder engine, live rear axle and shaft drive (Hotchkiss drive). The chassis frame is quite different to any other Peugeot racer, the front dumb irons curve down quite sharply with a short radius, the rear has a "platform" arrangement as used for three quarter ecliptic's but with bolted on forged hangers to support the rear of the half ecliptic rear springs. Compare with the Hispano chassis.

http://gallica.bnf.f...ccarelli.langEN

In this picture you can see the left corner of the rear of the chassis.

http://gallica.bnf.f...ccarelli.langEN

This car is a year or so later, but shows the arrangements at the rear.

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#133 fixedhead

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Posted 15 July 2011 - 11:42

Where does this fit in-

http://www.motorsnap...eugeot.jpg.html

The date is quoted as 1908 which I think would make it a single but its different, is it not the correct engine for the car? Does anyone know if the V twins were the same for 1909/10 or was there any valve/port development for 1910?