17 replies to this topic

[nsmg]

I've read that Austin Rover Motorsport was planning a Group S Metro and the project was already advanced in 1986, before all being pulled off.
There were two engines in development : a 2.4 V64V and a hybrid 1.2 (!!!) with a Sprintex compressor ( developed by Fleming Thermodinamis for Lockheed ).
I don't have any more details on this subject and more info is welcome !!!!

Best Regards.
NSMG

[jcbc3]

Never heard of that. But I do seem to remember an Opel Kadett S being prepared in Germany.

[Rainer Nyberg]

This is news to me too, but I would be surprised if not - at least tentative - plans were made.

After all, both Audi and Lancia had well advanced Group S projects. Even Ford had an Evo coming of the RS200.

[Henri Greuter]

Don't forget the Toyota Gp. S, based on the MR2


Henri

[FLB]

Nor the Citroën, based on the BX, IIRC.

[Graham Gauld]

I cannot answer the original question but in 1986 we, Ecurie Ecosse, raised some eyebrows by arranging with Austin Rover to use the Metro 6R4 engine in one of our Ecosse cars for the 1986 Group C2 Championship.
Originally AR were going to supply us with three engines plus a development engine but in the end I think we only ended up with one. The first time it was tested in an Ecosse at Oulton Park the camshaft belt failed after thirteen laps which was a similar problem to the rally cars.
At the time AR were having terrible problems with engine reliability in the rally cars. Thanks mainly to our Swedish/Canadian designer Max Boxtrom and the help of Uniroyal in Dumfries we managed to resolve the problem. Max drove up to Dumfries with his concept of a longer belt and an extra cog. Our engine man, John Dunn, cme up with a modified front cover assembly with an idler gear and it solved the problem.
The new belts were tooled in Germany and delivered to us in ten days.
We kept quiet about what we were doing and if I remember correctly some of the motor sport press were having a quiet smile as they knew about the problems with the Metro engine. However the car ran faultlessly in the early part of the Silverstone World Championship six hour race and we were leading the Group C2 class. We were, however, put out by a blown piston. We were later told the Ecosse had done more high speed miles in that race than the entire rally programme up to that time. Indeed Max sent a number of these new belts to John Davenport and they were successfully introduced into the rally cars to improve their reliability.
As it turned out we won the Group C2 World Championship that year with the 6R4 engine and gave Austin Rover a World Championship to talk about.
It is purely speculation on my part but this success might well have helped to stop any other expensive alternative programme they were working on.

GG

[jcbc3]

Originally posted by FLB
Nor the Citroën, based on the BX, IIRC.

The Citroen BX TC was built and rallied twice, IIRC, to Group B specification. Never heard that they made a Group S proposal out of it.

And on that note I can't find any reference to an Opel Kadett Group S car so I may have remembered wrong too. But I could have sworn I remember a picture in Autosport or some German mag from back then................

[RS2000]

Kadett/Astra Group S prototype ran (and was rallied below International level in UK by Andrew Wood?). Became basis of Dakar car and (Martin Schanche?) rallycross cars. BX4TC was certainly Group B but, being front engined, could have made the basis of a Gp S car (which is the reason it was so bad in Gp B...). RS200 Evo could not have become a Gp S car - not based on a "volume car" shape. Metro 6R4 with early spec cam set up finished 1985 RAC Rally (3rd), last of the "real" RAC Rallies so about 400 stage miles/2000 road miles - what was the race distance with Ecurie Ecosse?

[RS2000]

Re- original question: I cant see a Metro making a Gp S car - engine had to be in original position didnt it for Gp S? (although there may have been design studies?).

[Henri Greuter]

Originally posted by jcbc3


The Citroen BX TC was built and rallied twice, IIRC, to Group B specification. Never heard that they made a Group S proposal out of it.

And on that note I can't find any reference to an Opel Kadett Group S car so I may have remembered wrong too. But I could have sworn I remember a picture in Autosport or some German mag from back then................

Citroen started in three events: Monte Carlo (two very early retirements), Sweden (Andruet finish sixth, only ever car at the finish of a World Rally event) and Greece (two very early retirements as well)

I still can't believe Citroen even building those contraptions and believe them to stand a chance against Peugeot. lancia and Ford. Hell, even the first ever piston engined 4WD car (the 1906 spyker) was more sophisicated drivelinewise than the Citroen! The Spyker brother realized a 4wd car needed a center differential for optimal traction behaviour. Citroen engineeers left it out, thus making a car that was even more primive then the Audi Quattro's which already were shown how to built a decent 4WD drive line by their opponents....


The Kadett Gp S was built indeed, I believe the author was Graham Robson but the Kadett is featured in detail an a book "Rallying, the 4WD revolution".

Henri
or Portugal, best chance being Greece. Then the

[jcbc3]

Originally posted by Henri Greuter



Citroen started in three events: Monte Carlo (two very early retirements), Sweden (Andruet finish sixth, only ever car at the finish of a World Rally event) and Greece (two very early retirements as well)

I still can't believe Citroen even building those contraptions and believe them to stand a chance against Peugeot. lancia and Ford. Hell, even the first ever piston engined 4WD car (the 1906 spyker) was more sophisicated drivelinewise than the Citroen! The Spyker brother realized a 4wd car needed a center differential for optimal traction behaviour. Citroen engineeers left it out, thus making a car that was even more primive then the Audi Quattro's which already were shown how to built a decent 4WD drive line by their opponents....

I concur

Originally posted by Henri Greuter


The Kadett Gp S was built indeed, I believe the author was Graham Robson but the Kadett is featured in detail an a book "Rallying, the 4WD revolution".

Thank you. Means I haven't lost it all quite yet.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Graham Gauld
I cannot answer the original question but in 1986 we, Ecurie Ecosse, raised some eyebrows by arranging with Austin Rover to use the Metro 6R4 engine in one of our Ecosse cars for the 1986 Group C2 Championship.
Originally AR were going to supply us with three engines plus a development engine but in the end I think we only ended up with one. The first time it was tested in an Ecosse at Oulton Park the camshaft belt failed after thirteen laps which was a similar problem to the rally cars.
At the time AR were having terrible problems with engine reliability in the rally cars. Thanks mainly to our Swedish/Canadian designer Max Boxtrom and the help of Uniroyal in Dumfries we managed to resolve the problem. Max drove up to Dumfries with his concept of a longer belt and an extra cog. Our engine man, John Dunn, cme up with a modified front cover assembly with an idler gear and it solved the problem.
The new belts were tooled in Germany and delivered to us in ten days.
We kept quiet about what we were doing....

GG

...indeed you did, I often wondered about how an engine that clearly had a lot of potential but hadn't really really delivered in rallies managed to last forever in C2 trim - excellent posting, thanks!

[RTH]

The V64V 3 Litre from the 6R4

[nsmg]

Cheers,

Thank you all for your good will in helping, but I think that only Mr.Davenport himself can clarify this subject. The article that mentioned this MG Group S was published in '' Motorsport '' and was written by Davenport himself !

Any ideas on how to reach Mr.John Davenport ?

p.s : I'm also looking for articles featuring the Austin Rover Motorsport workshops, as I've never seen any photos of this ( long gone..) place.

Thanks.

[Henri Greuter]

a bit off topic but funny to mention after all.

About the Opel Kadett Gp S.

It was one of the first cars with an X-rtrac 4WD driveline but of even moer interest wass the engine.
Opel/GM didn't have a suitable turbocharged engine for the first prototypes so they bought a Zakspeed Turbo for the initial tests! (And that Zakspeed was a bit Ford derived....)
The Paris-Dakar cars were fitted with normally aspirated Opel Ascona/Manta Gp B engines.


About the Metro one more time, does anybody recall a statement being printed of someone telling how good the car actiually looked? Only the Citroen BX 4TC Gp B looked even more horrible than that blown out of proportions Mothercare trolley (copyright on that description is with Graham Robson by the way).


henri

[ggnagy]

Slightly straying from the same topic,

When the V-6 TWR Jaguar showed up at it's first IMSA race, there was some suggestions made that the engine was related to the 6r4's v6-4v. Was there any truth to that story?

[Rainer Nyberg]

Yes!

[RTH]

Originally posted by ggnagy
Slightly straying from the same topic,

When the V-6 TWR Jaguar showed up at it's first IMSA race, there was some suggestions made that the engine was related to the 6r4's v6-4v. Was there any truth to that story?

...........and in the XJ220 road and race cars