74 replies to this topic

[+Zen+]

I believe that Maclaren have the most HP now and, clearly, a chassis that can handle it. But it seems that the engine and drivetrain are really struggling for reliability. RD would not be happy with anything less then consistent 1-2 finishes from a car he knows is currently the best on the grid. JPM’s broken driveshaft is proof that Merc are really pushing for 1000HP. In my limited racing experience, broken drivetrain is usually a result of too much HP and too much tyre grip. Since tyre grip in F1 is at an all time high premium, I will stick to the theory of massive HP. Sometimes something has to give and in Hungary, as far as JPM was concerned it was the drive shaft. I do find it interesting that a failure like this can occur when TC is used, as the engine is limited initially out of the corner by the TC, therefore reduce loads to a certain extent.
I herd that Toyota believe they will achieve 1000HP by the China GP, but maybe Maclaren/Merc will do it sooner.

[kensei]

Originally posted by +Zen+
I believe that Maclaren have the most HP now and, clearly, a chassis that can handle it.

Clearly, the engine can't though...

[Chubby_Deuce]

Driveshafts don't magically break when 1,000 horses are produced. They break because they cocked up the compromise between weight and durability and/or a manafacturing flaw.

I personally don't believe that any engine is going to hit the 1,000bhp mark for any race this year. I do believe though that this thread belongs in the tech forum.

[klover]

I am surprised we haven't heard about JPM breaking the driveshaft, didn't some accuse Kimi of doing it at Imola because he pushed so hard? He must have learnt his lesson

[clipper]

one of the theories about Kimi's drive train failure in imola was to do with the nature of the track and to use the curbs as uch as possible. The loss of traction then the sudden bite when the rear wheels get grip again when jumping of curbes was seen as the cause of the drivetrain failure.

Perhaps the same cause for Montoya considering the way they take the curbes on some of the corners in hungary?

[Chubby_Deuce]

Didn't Ferrari blame Rubens for his suspension failure in Hungary, due to him hitting the curbs?

[clipper]

Originally posted by Chubby_Deuce
Didn't Ferrari blame Rubens for his suspension failure in Hungary, due to him hitting the curbs?

Back in '03 wasn't it, when he was trying to get past webber he went over those curbs pretty hard, with kimi overtaking him into the next corner

[JForce]

HSJ reports the Merc engine is actually now outputting close to 112BHP (at the flywheel), and that's as a result of an update in June last year, the only update they've had since 1982.

[Scoop]

Its strange that only the McLaren in the race lead fails.

[HBoss]

Originally posted by JForce
HSJ reports the Merc engine is actually now outputting close to 112BHP (at the flywheel), and that's as a result of an update in June last year, the only update they've had since 1982.

At first I read 1128 and thought you were serious and wondered how all the power could be lost after the flywheel. lol

[rfus]

If this is the case why not just drop a few hp to make it to the finish. I think with the car as good as it is they could afford to lose hp from the engine side and still be the fastest in the field. I doubt that ilmor could go from being one of the poorer engines last year to the best this year, of course they are most likely now one of the better engines in the field but the best ? I wouldn't be so sure.

[umapathypon]

Originally posted by JForce
HSJ reports the Merc engine is actually now outputting close to 112BHP (at the flywheel), and that's as a result of an update in June last year, the only update they've had since 1982.

[Al.]

Originally posted by clipper
one of the theories about Kimi's drive train failure in imola was to do with the nature of the track and to use the curbs as uch as possible. The loss of traction then the sudden bite when the rear wheels get grip again when jumping of curbes was seen as the cause of the drivetrain failure.

Perhaps the same cause for Montoya considering the way they take the curbes on some of the corners in hungary?

This I buy, as McLaren actually replaced that driveshaft and upright assembly in parc ferme overnight before the race. (Edit: this was on Kimi's at Imola) I assumed they'd seen a problem on the car after qualifying that subsequently reoccured on the fresh driveshaft during the race.

On the engine it is hard to say. 1000HP probably not, but one of the best engines quite likely.
It's hard to compare levels of downforce with all the extra flip ups and addons these days, but historically a team with a powerful engine (particularly Williams and McLaren in the Honda days) always used to run more wing then competitors, as the engine had the power to cope on the straights. That just made those cars look very good round the corners as well.

[jokuvaan]

Turun Sanomat had 915hp and I remember some German magazine said 930hp just lately.

Then again this topic is useless as nobody aint got any solid info.

But 1000hp&Mclaren is getting some what amusing.

[zfh10]

Originally posted by rfus
I doubt that ilmor could go from being one of the poorer engines last year to the best this year, of course they are most likely now one of the better engines in the field but the best ? I wouldn't be so sure.

fully agree
I suspect engine power to be lower than others, but the chassis and aero to be pretty close to being the best.

[TOPCAT1976]

Just on a side note - could JPM's drive train porblem not be related to running over a certain BAR generator?

Also, I read 1128 BHP too, then wet myself a moment later!

[Chubby_Deuce]

I thought the same thing, topcat. But on the other hand you have to remember that Kimi has had the same problem earlier this year, and that Juan's came at another track that features beefy curbing. Perhaps a combination of all of the above?

[desmo]

Originally posted by Chubby_Deuce
I do believe though that this thread belongs in the tech forum.

I am coming to the conclusion that any thread that has the letters "HP" in the title doesn't.

[ferrarista]

Mercedes was acknowledged to be the second weakest engine at the start of the season and now it's the best and close to 1000 bhp?
BTW, Willis named "fanciful" the rumours about Honda having 1000 bhp at the end of this year.

[clipper]

Originally posted by TOPCAT1976
Just on a side note - could JPM's drive train porblem not be related to running over a certain BAR generator?

Also, I read 1128 BHP too, then wet myself a moment later!

Well did he 'run over' the generator or just hit it? I would have thought that if he completly run over the generator, then the damage would have been also on the under side ofthe car and not the front wing & bargeboards

[Engineguy]

Originally posted by clipper
Well did he 'run over' the generator or just hit it? I would have thought that if he completly run over the generator, then the damage would have been also on the under side ofthe car and not the front wing & bargeboards

It was said that his right-side tires went two feet off the ground. I cannot see though how that would put stresses on the driveshafts anywhere near what they normally see from bumps and curbs under full power.

[Ben]

I believe that Maclaren have the most HP now

Evidence...

JPM’s broken driveshaft is proof that Merc are really pushing for 1000HP

How?

I do find it interesting that a failure like this can occur when TC is used, as the engine is limited initially out of the corner by the TC, therefore reduce loads to a certain extent.

It is not cut totally and the uneven firing when the TC cuts in can cause increased vibrations. Either way accelerating out of a corner will but the highest loads on the driveshafts whether TC is there or not.

I herd that Toyota believe they will achieve 1000HP by the China GP, but maybe Maclaren/Merc will do it sooner

If you heard that there were little pink teapots orbiting mars would you bother to pay any attention to or believe it?

As desmo has inferred, most threads about HP or HP figures are generally subjective slanging matches. ou are not going to get an accurate HP number for a current F1 engine. Even if a team gave one you probably wouldn't get the ambient temp and pressure and whether the airbox pressure was corrected to account for ram air.

You can argue that speculating is fun, but I would disagree when there's no hope of any objective data to see who was right

Ben

[MrAerodynamicist]

Interest to note nobody seems to have picked up on the fact it's no longer called Ilmor.

http://www3.mercedes...news_050602.htm

[clSD139]

An estimation appeared in our regional paper a couple of months ago, it was based on the soundwave... The Merc. didn't scored that high on the HP list, Ferrari and Renault did. Wasn't it known from the latter that they had the best accelerating car? Anyway, the approach may well look like post 4 in the V8 thread, while you're in the technical forum now.

[Chubby_Deuce]

Hmm.. couldn't exhaust header design as well as the acoustics of the surounding terrain skew the data in such a test?

[Greg Locock]

All they'd get from that is engine speed. You cannot use the loudness of the engine to predict power.

[clSD139]

Then the Mercedes engine is really strong, the last fatal problem was aftherall a loose hydraulic valve. Raikonnen stopped for the 4th time because of a driveline failure. Maybe the powersource does rev out competition since McLaren-Mercedes won more then once.

[clSD139]

Measured speed and rpm. estimation can unveil the hp-figure.

http://www.f1technic...?t=507&start=15

The shown telemetry is insufficient to give a comparable result. Certainly when accelerating fast the right cyclus is difficult to trace.

[bern@rd]

Norbert Haug commented on the Honda 1000hp special engine by saying no-one will exceed 1000hp this season.
He also said mercedes is actually currently one of the best engines on the grid, if not the best. He also mentioned the current top engines are way past 900hp. These were straight quotes from him, when asked about the honda japan special engine.

[Greg Locock]

It was jolly nice of the other teams to let norberg test their engines.

[desmo]

Originally posted by MrAerodynamicist
Interest to note nobody seems to have picked up on the fact it's no longer called Ilmor.

http://www3.mercedes...news_050602.htm

It's been badged a Mercedes for years now hasn't it? It's an Ilmor.

[GeorgeTheCar]

Mercedes has bought out all the Ilmore partners now so it is a Mercedes, n'est ce pas?

One the subjec t of power, people can get a reading which is much different than running for two weekends.

At this level its' how much more you have thanm the competition more than absolute power

[desmo]

No torque rumors? Or are those less important?

The BMW F1 engine is a BMW engine, the Ferrari engine is a Ferrari. It'll take some convincing before I accept a manutacturer calling this or that engine theirs simply because some papers were signed and money changed hends... Honestly I don't know much about the particulars here, I understand past Mercedes/Ilmors were essentially wholly outsourced aside from some dyno time and of course the funding. They have the right to call it one, no doubt; I reserve the right not to believe it. The badge means something to me when the engineering and manufacture are done to some significant degree in house.

[Engineguy]

Originally posted by desmo
No torque rumors? Or are those less important?

Troublemaker ;)

The BMW F1 engine is a BMW engine, the Ferrari engine is a Ferrari. It'll take some convincing before I accept a manutacturer calling this or that engine theirs simply because some papers were signed and money changed hends... Honestly I don't know much about the particulars here, I understand past Mercedes/Ilmors were essentially wholly outsourced aside from some dyno time and of course the funding. They have the right to call it one, no doubt; I reserve the right not to believe it. The badge means something to me when the engineering and manufacture are done to some significant degree in house.

There have been several discrete steps in the Mercedes/Ilmor relationship. Even before there was a Mercedes badged F1 engine, Mercedes funded Sauber's 1992 Ilmor engine (while Chevrolet still badged Ilmor Indy engines and still owned a third of Ilmor, IIRC). In '93 it should no doubt be called a badged engine. Several incremental changes in ownership and management have taken place over the years. By 2003 Mario Illian was just one of four people with similar top level management/development responsibilities and the CEO was a guy with a German-sounding name if that tells you anything. The recent buyout/split removes all previous non-Mercedes ownership from the F1 engine company. So just as clearly as it was a badged Ilmor engine in 1993, it is a Mercedes engine in 2006... everything in between is something in between, progressively less Ilmor and more Mercedes.

[McGuire]

You bought it, you name it.

[Fat Boy]

Originally posted by desmo
No torque rumors? Or are those less important?

--At the risk of starting a holy war--

Torque is essentially a measure of engine efficiency. My guess is that the torque numbers that all of the engines produce are very similar. They are all very, very efficient. The engines are relatively small, so the numbers aren't too impressive. Because friction and all pumping losses are squared functions (or higher) w.r.t. RPM the difficult thing is to make an engine that is efficient at very high RPM as opposed to lower RPM. When we talk about peak efficiency, we're talking about torque. When we talk about very good efficiency at high RPM, we're talking about HP. Because of the RPM levels that these engines are reaching, there is a multiplication factor of 3-4 on the torque number to find the HP. That makes it a bigger deal on paper to look at.

[desmo]

Originally posted by McGuire
You bought it, you name it.

Originally posted by desmo
They have the right to call it one, no doubt...

I think we essentially agree.

FB, good points. As engineguy caught, I was being 99% tongue in cheek. F1 BMEPs look positively prosaic compared to Super Touring or F3000 figures. Why that is the case is probably an interesting question though.

[Greg Locock]

--At the risk of starting a holy war--

Oh bloody hell.

[hydra]

Originally posted by desmo




I think we essentially agree.

FB, good points. As engineguy caught, I was being 99% tongue in cheek. F1 BMEPs look positively prosaic compared to Super Touring or F3000 figures. Why that is the case is probably an interesting question though.

Desmo,
I would think that F1 FMEPs are pretty high in absolute terms despite their best efforts, so while they may be making pretty decent IMEPs, BMEP figures aren't all that stellar.
Oh, and variable length intake manifolds would help A LOT in this department I think...

[clSD139]

Originally posted by +Zen+
I believe that Maclaren have the most HP now and, clearly, a chassis that can handle it. But it seems that the engine and drivetrain are really struggling for reliability. RD would not be happy with anything less then consistent 1-2 finishes from a car he knows is currently the best on the grid. JPM’s broken driveshaft is proof that Merc are really pushing for 1000HP.

Mercedes was most effective adapting the engine in the new rules. They only lost a small percentage, certainly compared with other competitors. The engine has won 60 hp since then, also a good evolution.

[Ben]

Originally posted by clSD139


The engine has won 60 hp since then, also a good evolution.

Who told you that?

Ben

[clSD139]

Past Issue of Auto-Motor Sport Magazine. It was also mentioned that Renault plays more on sure (like a tracktor) and that McLaren is indeed on the limits.

[desmo]

Well, that's all I needed to hear

[Nathan]

Also have to remember is this 1000hp in race trim or 1000hp in a few second bursts on a engine dyno?

[amardeep]

One odd thing I've noticed is that the Merc engine sounds completely different to the Honda from the TV coverage. The Honda absolutely screams, but the Merc sounds rather lower, more of a buzzing type noise (that's not quite the right word to describe it, but I can't think of a better one).

I wonder whether this is just because of the position of the microphone and the layout of the car, or whether they really sound that different in real life ? If they do, I wonder why ?

[clSD139]

If the frequency would be measured I think it will be well above 3333 or the corrected 1555 Hz. A part of it is probably ultrasonic. Also on the shown telemetry McLaren-Mercedes shifts at around 18.000.

[TOPCAT1976]

Originally posted by amardeep
One odd thing I've noticed is that the Merc engine sounds completely different to the Honda from the TV coverage. The Honda absolutely screams, but the Merc sounds rather lower, more of a buzzing type noise (that's not quite the right word to describe it, but I can't think of a better one).

I wonder whether this is just because of the position of the microphone and the layout of the car, or whether they really sound that different in real life ? If they do, I wonder why ?

At Silverstone there was a definite diference in pitch and tone from the Mercs to most of the others. And, a lot less TC. We sat on Club and compared with the rest, Merc were running practically no TC by Sunday on the way out of Club.

[Fat Boy]

Originally posted by TOPCAT1976
And, a lot less TC. We sat on Club and compared with the rest, Merc were running practically no TC by Sunday

Funny how that is. Some people leave the car alone and tune the traction control, I've never understood that. I leave the TC alone and tune the car. If the car is really working well, the tires don't spin much and the TC doesn't have to work. Intuitively, it just makes more sense to me.

[Engineguy]

Originally posted by TOPCAT1976
And, a lot less TC. We sat on Club and compared with the rest, Merc were running practically no TC by Sunday on the way out of Club.

Perhaps they just have more grip... regardless of your TC settings or logic, it isn't activated unless needed.

[Ben]

Originally posted by clSD139
Past Issue of Auto-Motor Sport Magazine. It was also mentioned that Renault plays more on sure (like a tracktor) and that McLaren is indeed on the limits.

What the hell makes you think they know any better than say a blind guess?

Ben