70 replies to this topic

[Supercar]

Hey!

I just came back from watching Spa 24hr, with a small excursion over to the Nurburgring North loop in a rental car! What a blast! Still tired and jet-lagged... but full of energy and ideas!

I am thinking to try to look for an engineering racing job in the UK. Here in the US this profession is in its infancy in comparison to Europe. Of course there are a few good engineers here too, but there is no system or ladder in place to become one of those guys. It's mostly luck and learning from own mistakes, this is what I have been doing for the last few years and I am getting increasingly bored. In the UK, on the other hand, racing is said to be #4 or #5 industry! Sounds like the place to be.

Are there any good engineering schools (post-graduate programs) after which a job with an established racing company is basically guaranteed unless there something really wrong with you? I do not want another degree (fourth), but if this is the fastest way, or if they teach something that is really useful, then I will do it.

Just FYI, I have a great vehicle dynamics job in the US, but I believe I can do better if I put in some extra effort. Just need to find the right company. Any advice from the UK/EU guys?

Thanks,

Philip
Michigan, USA

[Supercar]

Racecar Engineering had an article about Kingston Master's in Racecar Vehicle Dynamics program, but it appears to be somewhat scammy. One lecturer with a Bachelor's degree and no claimed motorsport experience teaches 4 of the 8 classes, which are just 1-week long each. Then students work somewhere after each class for 3 weeks and supposedly gain experience. The program is 1-year long, the tuition is US$20K for non-residents and the housing cost is US$10K. Just curious if there are better ways to spend the time and money, better schools, or better ways to get a racing job in the UK.

Philip

[Greg Locock]

Cranfield has a reasonable masters, and there are a couple of others. I'd say that I see at least two adverts a year for vehicle dynamicists for F1 teams, so given that there are plenty of other series that should be quite a few vacancies, although obviously not many in proportion to the number of wannabees.

OH, and obviously there are no programs that guarantee selection, I've never found a university that cared about employability.

[Ben]

Originally posted by Supercar
Racecar Engineering had an article about Kingston Master's in Racecar Vehicle Dynamics program, but it appears to be somewhat scammy. One lecturer with a Bachelor's degree and no claimed motorsport experience teaches 4 of the 8 classes, which are just 1-week long each. Then students work somewhere after each class for 3 weeks and supposedly gain experience. The program is 1-year long, the tuition is US$20K for non-residents and the housing cost is US$10K. Just curious if there are better ways to spend the time and money, better schools, or better ways to get a racing job in the UK.

Philip

I'd rather not say why but I'm also fairly dubious of this course. I would echo Greg's comments about employability. From personal experience a good Mech Eng degree and persistance is cheaper than a 'motorsport' degree.

Another reason I've got no problem mentioning is that the lecturer who runs the course attended the Claude Rouelle course I went on two years ago and I have to say he definitely had less motorsport experience than the FSAE grads who were in attendence.

Ben

[Greg Locock]

I've just put that through my Captain Fantastic decoder ring and it came out as "Run away! run away!"

Do you know anyone who did the Cranfield course?

[Ben]

I've met a few people who've done the Cranfield course, I wouldn't say I know any of them well though. From what I can see a lot of the Cranfield grads are doing tech sales work, there's a guy at PFC who's a good example of that. I've also met a couple of Cranfield grads who haven't got motorsport jobs from being on the course so its not a guarentee either.

Ben

[knighty]

so you want a job in the UK race industry..........heres my advice based on experience.....get a degree in Engineering.......then go and "door-step" potential employers and ram your CV straight into their hand, beg/offer to work for free for a while, if your lucky, you'll get a minimum wage, once you have a bit of experience, that can start to open doors, elsewhere, but it aint gonna happen overnight.........it took me 3 years to get where I wanted to be (professional race engine design).........I ran into some real arseholes along the way, Vic Lee being the main one......he just got another 12 years for drug smuggling....har har har!......

in short my experience of the UK race industry is as follows.......youll be lucky to earn over 30K, full of arseholes who expect you to work all the hours under the sun - overtime for free - then when drivers dont win the races, they publicly slate your engine/chassis in autosport - making me think why did I bother in the first place........engines / cars lose races - drivers win races.......same as F1

my race industry experience was a very good learning experience, but I would think very hard about doing it again. I'm now a contract design engineer working on mid-range diesel truck engines, the pay and hours are excellent, and the work is even more interesting than race stuff - I never thought I'd hear myself say that!

In short, dont come over here with rose-tinted-glasses, as you will be in for a big shock. You get no guaranetees over here, its all down to you, if you have vehicle dynamics job and a degree, I would start pestering companies like "dynamics suspension" in Norfolk, they are well involved in everything from rallying to F1.

yes - I have heard of a few cranfield grads who are in sales too......says it all really :

cheers

stephen

[Ben]

Originally posted by knighty


yes - I have heard of a few cranfield grads who are in sales too......says it all really :

I know two postgraduates in F1 and they did an MSc in control systems at Imperial with Robin Sharp and part of a vehicle dynamics Phd at Leeds respectively. Please note, neither did a 'motorsport' course.

Universities in the UK get budgets based on bums on seats. Motorsport is 'cool' and therefore achieves this end. It's another matter entirely whether motorsport courses develop the really technical skills required to do vehicle/aero dynamics, systems, etc at the highest level. the Cranfield individual projects I've read about seemed below the standard shown by the top FSAE teams as well.

Ben

[knighty]

I couldnt agree with your statement more!.........the level of FSAE projects was very high when I did it in 99 at Hertfordshire, I understand its now even higher, I was pleasantly susprised that hertfordshire were the highest british team in this years UK competition......obviously jack all to do with me!........yup motorsport is seen as "cool" by wanna be graduates.........hertfordshire push the motorsport and FSAE thing quite hard in their marketing for potential students.......and I couldnt reccomend FSAE any higher to any wannabe graduate, it looks very good on your CV.

[Supercar]

Thanks a lot for your replies, guys!!! I am just losing my mind sometimes thinking about all this stuff. Glad that I still have some common sense left.

I think I am getting oriented a little bit better in the motorsport world, thanks in part to you guys. I think I am more into racecar engineering or motorsport engineering rather than race engineering, which in most teams is "running what you have the best way you can trying to win races". That is why they kicked me off a motocross team when I was 14 - I was more interested in making my bike the fastest than finishing the race "in points" for the team, haha.

So, that broadens, or maybe narrows down my potential job market to car manufacturers, parts suppliers and motorsport engineering companies.

I think, in the meantime I will look for the best use of my time and money. Some extra persistence is a cheaper currency for me now than quitting my current (good, almost dream) job and going for another engineering degree, although being a full-time student again would certainly be fun. Glad that the UK also has no hands-down best motorsport schools, LOL! This means that my engineering education should be just fine for the UK too. I know I can sell PFC products already.

I have my opinion about working for a minimum wage. Usually it comes with minimal responsibilities, expectations and you are the first to be blamed for everything. I learned that if someone offers you a minimum wage that means that they really have no use for your skills, usually due to their own issues. I am a little too old(experienced) working for a minimum wage. I have a different problem. Some teams and small companies read my resume and they think they can't afford me full-time, lol.

Thanks for the Dynamic Suspension idea. Any other recommendations? Prodrive, Lola, Lotus, TVR maybe? What are your local vehicle dynamics heavyweights there in the UK? Please throw some ideas at me. I need some companies and jobs to look up to.

Thanks!

Philip

[Ben]

Originally posted by Supercar

Thanks for the Dynamic Suspension idea. Any other recommendations? Prodrive, Lola, Lotus, TVR maybe? What are your local vehicle dynamics heavyweights there in the UK? Please throw some ideas at me. I need some companies and jobs to look up to.

Thanks!

Philip

I rate Damian Harty (cheif dynamics engineer) at Prodrive very highly. Don't touch TVR - firmly in the garden shed school of engineering. Lola weren't hiring last year or year before. Lotus interviewed 20 grads (including me) for 12 places last summer and only took 4 (not including me) then made 250 people redundant just before Christmas.

From what I've heard one of the few series where drivers and crews can earn a living is Grand-Am DPs. I seriously think you'd be better off doing one of Claude Rouelle's courses and trying in the States. Don Panoz's Elan empire might be worth a look.

Also drop Mike Fuller of www.mulsannescorner.com fame an email. I believe he works for Elan (and Reynard NA prior to that).

Ben

[McGuire]

Charlotte-Moorseville. These days the streets are paved with gold for qualified technical people of all kinds. Best I have ever seen it in the USA in 30+ years.

[Supercar]

Ben -- Thanks a lot. I have already done some of what you recommended and I am planning to try the rest. Great minds think alike.

McGuire -- The reason why I am not in Charlotte-Moorseville yet is that I perceive that place as a "carb/solid axle/going round in circles" kind of kingdom. I just cannot bend my mind that way. NASCAR may be paying well but so is my current job. Maybe I have a wrong perception, please correct me if I am wrong, but are there any road racing (not just oval) team/companies there at all besides PFC?

Philip

[McGuire]

Originally posted by Supercar
McGuire -- The reason why I am not in Charlotte-Moorseville yet is that I perceive that place as a "carb/solid axle/going round in circles" kind of kingdom. I just cannot bend my mind that way. NASCAR may be paying well but so is my current job. Maybe I have a wrong perception, please correct me if I am wrong, but are there any road racing (not just oval) team/companies there at all besides PFC?

Philip

Different strokes for different folks. I would never try to advise anyone to work where they will not be happy. Do what you love and you will never "work" a day in your life.

All I can say is just because they only turn left and have rear beam axles doesn't make it easy or simple. Quite the opposite. If all the pieces were queens then chess would be checkers eh. Funding sets the level of competition. If you want to race with and against the top people and best technical resources in racing today (except F1) and be paid to match, then NASCAR is the place to be.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Go for a team with a young driver who is willing to learn and doesnt yet have too many bad habits. If you go with a guy who's been doing stock cars for too long, neither of you will perform and its a coin flip over who gets sacked.








*COUGH* Todd Bodine & Haas-Carter *COUGH*

[Greg Locock]

I'm with McGuire on this one. The most boring project I ever worked on was a V12 quad turbo supercar. Maybe I just enjoy the quarts and pint pot challenge of trying to match BMW 5 series dynamics on Ford Taurus budgets. Oh, and succeeding. BFG

By the way Ben, over here I routinely reject >>75% of interviewees, so the Lotus numbers don't surprise me.

[Ben]

Originally posted by Greg Locock
I'm with McGuire on this one. The most boring project I ever worked on was a V12 quad turbo supercar. Maybe I just enjoy the quarts and pint pot challenge of trying to match BMW 5 series dynamics on Ford Taurus budgets. Oh, and succeeding. BFG

By the way Ben, over here I routinely reject >>75% of interviewees, so the Lotus numbers don't surprise me.

I didn't mind the rejection it was just that they said they'd take 12 and only took 4. Also one of the 4 grad engineers who got in was in the marketing department last I checked

Ben

[knighty]

Ben - dont be put out by the rejection numbers, when Lotus came to my University in about 1997 to interview candidates they only took one person out of the 25!!!.........fortunatley that one person was me!........having worked in the Chassis engineering department for 8 months I can assure you are not missing anything.........I too got laid off, as the Malaysian stock market had just gone down the toilet, it seems Lotus are so out of control, that every 2 years or so they have a mass clear out of staff in order to save cost, this has happened about 3 or 4 times over the past 8 years........I know Ford used them on the Aston Martin project, but will never use them again, due to major timing and quality issues, believe me Lotus are nothing special.

I dont know at what stage your career is? but my best advice to post graduates is as follows - put a portfolio together and take it to the interview........has worked a treat for me

[Ben]

Originally posted by knighty

I dont know at what stage your career is? but my best advice to post graduates is as follows - put a portfolio together and take it to the interview........has worked a treat for me

If that was directed at me - maybe I put the wrong impression across, I have a motorsport job with a standard 37.5hr week and paid overtime. Happy as a pig in **** :-)

Good advice though regarding portfolios, the other thing worth doing these days is getting good with particular software. Being a fairly competent at both ADAMS and Matlab has opened many doors, Ricardo VECTIS and WAVE or Virtual 4-stroke would be the places to start for engines I guess? Some older engineers can get a bit snotty about CAE packages but the fact remains that you will need to use them, just make sure you have the fundamentals to back it up.

Ben

[Fat Boy]

Originally posted by Ben
I have a motorsport job with a standard 37.5hr week and paid overtime.

And you call that racing?!?!

[Supercar]

Originally posted by knighty I dont know at what stage your career is? but my best advice to post graduates is as follows - put a portfolio together and take it to the interview........has worked a treat for me [/B]

Jeez... I took a day to sink in what "portfolio" might mean. Is it a summary of completed projects, like an expanded resume with colorful illustrations? I am new to the post graduate job search.

Philip

[Supercar]

Originally posted by Ben
... the other thing worth doing these days is getting good with particular software. Being a fairly competent at both ADAMS and Matlab has opened many doors ...

Yes, ADAMS is something that I know I need to learn if I want to find a job at a serious company. Thanks for reminding. The problem is that to really learn it it seems that I need to do one of the two things: a) get a new job first where I would be using ADAMS, or b) figure a way to get a copy of it on my personal computer and complete some project. On the second thought... maybe I could use it at the computer lab at my old grad school, if they give me access. Any other suggestions?

Just a training class probably won't cut it because I will forget most of it the minute I walk out of the classroom.

What do you use Matlab for? I use it mainly to process large amounts of test data (plots, curve fits, coefficients).

Philip

[Greg Locock]

ADAMS - doing the basic training course won't even get your foot in the door. I think after 3 months full time qualifies you as vaguely competent. If you do all the tutorials, you'll at least be able to talk the language.

If you can't afford MATLAB (used for just about everything round here) then hit www.scilab.org for a free, and in some ways better, alternative. I'm pretty sure a scilab user could pick matlab up in no time at all. Octave (google for it) is free and more similar to matlab in syntax, but less powerful.

[Supercar]

Originally posted by Greg Locock
If you can't afford MATLAB (used for just about everything round here)...

I do not have ADAMS. But I do have Matlab on my laptop, I was just wondering what it is used for most often in your vehicle dynamics areas. Are there some tasks where it is nearly indispensable.

As I said, I process and plot test data with Matlab. Long time ago I also used it for some basic math calculations, IF statements, WHILE loops, things that I can often do much faster in Excel now without having to debug the code endlessly.

Philip

[Greg Locock]

Things I do with Matlab/Scilab:

Data extraction, filtering, and preparation of standardised objective measures, including frequency response.

Preparation of and analysis of Taguchi experiments for vehicle setup, and correlation between ADAMS and real world data.

Any control theory stuff I have to do.

Any code that I used to do in Excel but that I want to be able to maintain.

Strange simulations.

I must confess I don't actually enjoy using Matlab very much, and would much rather use Mathcad when I'm designing things.

[Ben]

Originally posted by Fat Boy


And you call that racing?!?!

Yes, racing with a home life as well...

As for software I use matlab for plotting and fitting data to math models. Greg's right that scilab will give you a good feel for matlab without the cost. He's also right that ADAMS requires time and experience. I've got about 18 months total on A/View and A/Car and feel moderately experienced.
If you're getting into ADAMS you should get Blundell and Harty's book on multi-body vehicle dynamics.

Ben

[Supercar]

Thanks again, guys! It is all coming together, finally. Now I know what I do not know. I also know what I should be doing, which is like 1/3 way towards getting it done!

We have a group that does ADAMS and most of other simulation, and another group that does DOE and lap simulation for roundy-round racers. My brain is telling me to try to get in, but my heart is telling me to run the hell out of there and go work somewhere in road racing. If only I could watch NASCAR, I would have been on top of the world by now! :

Philip

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by Ben


Yes, racing with a home life as well...

pshaw, racing is life ;)

[Lukin]

Originally posted by Fat Boy


And you call that racing?!?!

haha my sentiments exactly. 37.5 hrs isn't too bad, for 3 days... It's pretty good at the moment, only 50 hours a week away from the track and 14-16 hours a day when racing.

[Ben]

Originally posted by Lukin


haha my sentiments exactly. 37.5 hrs isn't too bad, for 3 days... It's pretty good at the moment, only 50 hours a week away from the track and 14-16 hours a day when racing.

This is the difference between being part of a race team or a tier one supplier. Tier one supply is closer to a conventional engineering firm. I'm calling it the best of both worlds at the moment :-)

Ben

[Supercar]

Originally posted by Ben This is the difference between being part of a race team or a tier one supplier. Tier one supply is closer to a conventional engineering firm. I'm calling it the best of both worlds at the moment :-)

OEM is better. Regular work hours, paid overtime, and you do not even have to do any engineering! Maybe only if you feel like it.

Philip

[Lukin]

Originally posted by Ben


This is the difference between being part of a race team or a tier one supplier. Tier one supply is closer to a conventional engineering firm. I'm calling it the best of both worlds at the moment :-)

Ben

heh yeah I guess. Though being part of the race team when we win would be much better than being a level one supplier. However, when it all goes downhill (as it did on the weekend) it's no good.

Speaking of tyre supplier, I believe your fine company supplies our series with black stuff (no, not oil).;)

[Ben]

Originally posted by Lukin


heh yeah I guess. Though being part of the race team when we win would be much better than being a level one supplier. However, when it all goes downhill (as it did on the weekend) it's no good.

Speaking of tyre supplier, I believe your fine company supplies our series with black stuff (no, not oil).;)

That's a very interesting point. I think outside of F1 very little R&D occurs in race teams beyond general set up work and therefore more fundamental steps like new dampers, tyres, and other systems get done at a supplier level.

You can't beat the feeling of being involved with a car/bike that does well but there are pluses and minuses to both situations and for those considering motorsport as a career it's another important factor to be aware of.

Yes our fine company (the Japanese bit anyway) supplies your series. My end does the DTM/BTCC/GT/LMP/MotoGP whereas rally and most things Asia/Pacific get done in Japan.

Ben

[gbaker]

Originally posted by Greg Locock
...I must confess I don't actually enjoy using Matlab very much, and would much rather use Mathcad when I'm designing things.

I knew you'd get there eventually, Greg.

[knighty]

Ben - sorry if I sounded patronising with the portfolio thing, but I dont know your history, and had to assume!..........so who do you currently work for?......sorry for being nosy!......sounds like you have it sussed with a 37.5 hour week and paid overtime

[Greg Locock]

Gregg, I've used MathCad since it was in beta (it came on one 5 1/4 floppy).

[Ben]

Originally posted by knighty
Ben - sorry if I sounded patronising with the portfolio thing, but I dont know your history, and had to assume!..........so who do you currently work for?......sorry for being nosy!......sounds like you have it sussed with a 37.5 hour week and paid overtime

Round black things in Birmingham as alluded to in Lukin's post...

Ben

[dc21]

I'm never surprised when people say they want to work in motor racing, and never surprised when they run away with their tail between their legs. As Knighty said, the hours are **** and the pay is ****. At my University I offered the Formula Student guys the chance to come karting with me, and the chance to help at test/race days with the F3 car. Not one of them turned up (something about early mornings). These are guys who want to work in motor sport.

The real attraction of working in motor racing is travelling around Europe (for free) and the chance to see the results of your efforts. I can't see myself working in it for long though, I'd much prefer to get round to doing some real engineering and paying for my own racing.

If you do want a job in motor racing you've got to be cheap, available 7 days a week, 24 hours a day, and be able to pretend you know what you're doing. Once you've got that initial job, you have to learn very fast so you don't get found out, then aim to move to a bigger team where things are done properly. Also, don't get taken in by what I term, the Bullshit. A big shiny truck, team uniforms and hospitality suites doesn't mean a team knows what they're doing, it just means they have a rich driver.

Dave

[knighty]

Dave - I feel like I know you like a brother!........thats exactly what I did, left motorsport, and raced my own car for 2 years in formula-4 with the 750 motor club.........race teams are quite often full of wankers who think they know it all........quite often the mechanics, followed closley by the drivers........ the most sole destroying part as said earlier is the public slating in autosport........I was a team of 3 design engineers at Mountune, we designed the engine for the Proton BTCC racer.........it was the pit lane conclusion that the engine was a missile, often setting fastest speed trap speeds, and being near impossible to overtake on the straights.......quite a feat considering the car had the aerodynamic properties of a shoe box

But the team and drivers would always blame the engine for everything.......the reason being because its not their bit, so obviously that was why the car handled like a boat........f^&king pricks, they all make me laugh.........drivers win races.........engines and cars lose races, thats the way it works unfortunatley

[Fat Boy]

Originally posted by Ben


That's a very interesting point. I think outside of F1 very little R&D occurs in race teams beyond general set up work and therefore more fundamental steps like new dampers, tyres, and other systems get done at a supplier level.

I don't agree. The trick is getting in with a team that is willing to work with suppliers. I find that the teams that keep everything uber secret and only talk amongst themselves stay mid-pack. The ones that work open-book with tire, damper, engine, etc. manufacturers are the ones that excel. It means you have to stay on your toes and do development work, but it's a great opportunity to learn a wide selection of skills.

[gbaker]

Originally posted by Greg Locock
Gregg, I've used MathCad since it was in beta (it came on one 5 1/4 floppy).

I defer to you, oh Great One.

That reminds me of an early '80s CNC mill we used for making prototypes in the engineering department. The controller booted off of an 8" floppy. It finally died about 5 years ago.

[Supercar]

Originally posted by dc21 ... I'd much prefer to get round to doing some real engineering and paying for my own racing.

Many of those who say that they want to work in auto racing really want to be racecar drivers. I want to stay an engineer. I am just one of those folks who still believe that racing is the pinnacle of engineering. I am just searching for my own geeky Nirvana, that's it.

If you do want a job in motor racing you've got to be cheap, available 7 days a week, 24 hours a day, and be able to pretend you know what you're doing. Once you've got that initial job, you have to learn very fast so you don't get found out, then aim to move to a bigger team where things are done properly. Also, don't get taken in by what I term, the Bullshit. A big shiny truck, team uniforms and hospitality suites doesn't mean a team knows what they're doing, it just means they have a rich driver.

Been there. Seen the "Bullshit". Been cheap, available, then pretended, learned, saw the results of my efforts, etc. Found out there is only a handful of teams in the US who know what they are doing. I figured that I would continue doing what I have been doing for now, which is race/racecar engineering on weekends and vehicle dynamics on weekdays, and would continue slowly moving in the direction of the Nirvana. If I quit and go work for the Bullshit full-time I figured I may never get there.

Philip

[Fat Boy]

Originally posted by Supercar
Been there. Seen the "Bullshit". Been cheap, available, then pretended, learned, saw the results of my efforts, etc. Found out there is only a handful of teams in the US who know what they are doing.

There are many places in the US where a good engineer can make a good living in road racing. There's more if you go in circles. What you've written is fairly insulting to American racing. Beyond that, it's a crock of ****. There are a lot of really good teams in the US in Champ Car, Atlantics, Grand Am, ALMS. There are some Formula Mazda and BMW teams that aren't too shabby, either. I've seen a _bunch_ of Euro's come over here and I have yet to see one dominate in engineering. Some of them are good, but none are any better than the good ones from here. Too many of them are at least as arrogant as US people get blamed for being. Some seem to have gotten their education on the plane flight over.

The Euro aero guys seem pretty reasonable. The only guys that I've seen that have a clue on dampers are from Sweden. They _all_ run their cars massively stiff, at least to start out. The Euro engine and electronic guys are pretty good. The best tire guys are from France. The best gearbox guys are English.

So here's the deal. If you want to go to Europe and work on a car team, more power to you. Just don't slag US racing because you can't get a good job doing it.

If I were doing a random selection to start a race team, I'd take a Kiwi or an Aussie over a Euro any day.

(God, am I gonna get it from all angles for this post)

[Greg Locock]

Oh, you should be safe from a bearing of about 225 degrees!

[Ben]

Originally posted by Fat Boy


If I were doing a random selection to start a race team, I'd take a Kiwi or an Aussie over a Euro any day.

(God, am I gonna get it from all angles for this post)

I would completely agree with that to be honest. Having done the three main FSAE competitions last year, the best guys I came across were from Aussie teams. I have a feeling it's like the Brazilian driver thing that occurs in British F3, they come a long way and have more invested in there success than someone from Britain who has a pub/mates/social life on his doorstep rather than the other side of the world.

I'd also agree on the standard of teams in the US, there certainly aren't less teams with a good level of engineering. We can argue about percentages but if you look at IRL, CART, ALMS, etc there are a hell of a lot.

Ben

[Lukin]

Originally posted by Fat Boy

If I were doing a random selection to start a race team, I'd take a Kiwi or an Aussie over a Euro any day.

I'll hold you to that if I ever cross the pond! Oh yeah, congrats on gettin hit with champagne at Portland.

I was very bloody lucky to get a good job so soon. SAE pretty well died in the arse at our uni but it gave me the bug (the motorsport bug that is, not the usual bug you pick up at uni). Went to the local track and asked around till I got a volunteering gig doing data for a state Formula Ford driver. It was good, he wasnt in it for a career, just for fun, and was receptive to new ideas. I guess it did take commitement, especially during the winter classic where I stood in pit lane for 15 minutes in the puring rain before someone told me the race was cancelled. I did put in a fair bit of time on weekends and after work and missed out on a few things due to early rises the next morning, but it was great fun and something I won't forget.

Was expecting to be there for another year or so but a chance e-mail on a V8 teams notice board (I didn't think anyone would even read it) asking about what else I could to go get a job in 12-18 months promtped the phone call that pretty well changed everything. A few interviews later (I was able to set it up so I had the face to face the day after the Rouelle course in Melb), move to the other side of the island, and I gotta say, beats the hell out of working for a living.

[Supercar]

Originally posted by Fat Boy There are many places in the US where a good engineer can make a good living in road racing. There's more if you go in circles. What you've written is fairly insulting to American racing. Beyond that, it's a crock of ****. There are a lot of really good teams in the US in Champ Car, Atlantics, Grand Am, ALMS. There are some Formula Mazda and BMW teams that aren't too shabby, either...

Sorry, Fat Boy, to have caused your patriotic wrath. Have you lost your "Proud to be an American" bumper sticker today?

I did not explain well enough, so let me explain better. When I said "teams" I really meant racing teams/racing businesses. I was not talking about a driver, an owner, a manager, mechanics and maybe an engineer kind of teams. There are plenty of those and some of them are very successful. I was talking about serious racing businesses, who are in road racing long-term to win and to make money. True racing enterprises that achieve their results by superior organization and engineering. Companies like Penske, Pratt & Miller, Champion Racing, ???, etc. They are true schools and factories or race/racecar engineering. I have not looked long enough, so I do not know them all, but I am looking.

Maybe some "just teams" could also qualify. Champ Car teams look pretty serious, I watched them from the pit lane, I just need to learn Pi before I dare to ask for a job. DP's are cool, I have been eyeing them for a couple of years now.

Most other teams though have just one engineer. So, if I get a job with one of them that lonely engineer will be me. It's hard to work alone. Been there, done that too. It takes a very long time to become any good and a lot of effort to maintain that level if there is no one around to help, at least to bounce ideas against. And, unless you are buddies with the owner and the manager, it is an uphill battle to get any engineering projects done.

I will keep looking around and trying.

Philip

[Ben]

Originally posted by Supercar
Sorry, Fat Boy, to have caused your patriotic wrath. Have you lost your "Proud to be an American" bumper sticker today?

I did not explain well enough, so let me explain better. When I said "teams" I really meant racing teams/racing businesses. I was not talking about a driver, an owner, a manager, mechanics and maybe an engineer kind of teams. There are plenty of those and some of them are very successful. I was talking about serious racing businesses, who are in road racing long-term to win and to make money. True racing enterprises that achieve their results by superior organization and engineering. Companies like Penske, Pratt & Miller, Champion Racing, ???, etc. They are true schools and factories or race/racecar engineering. I have not looked long enough, so I do not know them all, but I am looking.

Maybe some "just teams" could also qualify. Champ Car teams look pretty serious, I watched them from the pit lane, I just need to learn Pi before I dare to ask for a job. DP's are cool, I have been eyeing them for a couple of years now.

Most other teams though have just one engineer. So, if I get a job with one of them that lonely engineer will be me. It's hard to work alone. Been there, done that too. It takes a very long time to become any good and a lot of effort to maintain that level if there is no one around to help, at least to bounce ideas against. And, unless you are buddies with the owner and the manager, it is an uphill battle to get any engineering projects done.

I will keep looking around and trying.

Philip

I'm puzzled as to why you think the UK/Europe would be any different. If anything it would be worse. DPs is at a higher level than British GT and a lot of LMES teams (Fat Boy: correct me if I'm wrong, but that's the impression I get) Champ Cars and IRL also have more resources than most British F3 teams.

The grass is always greener it seems. Do you want to be a "lonely engineer" in the UK or the US?

Ben

[McGuire]

Originally posted by Supercar


Found out there is only a handful of teams in the US who know what they are doing.

I totally disagree.

[Supercar]

I am sure I will not change anyone's mind, even if I list all the arguments, and this is not even my goal.

I just asked what are the good road racing companies (let's call them companies, not teams) to work for in the UK or in the US. The UK seems to have at least as many as the US. I have not covered all the US companies yet, so pitch in if you want to help. Thank you.
---------

One clarification: I am a vehicle dynamics guy and I like road racing. I am only interested in road racing companies. Please no ovals, drag, tractor pulling, etc. Rally is good. Thank you.

Philip