47 replies to this topic

[El Magnificante]

Williams have confirmed that an engine supply deal for 2006 has been done. The general vibe is that this will put Williams back even further and is a lesser option than going with the likes of Honda or Toyota. A brand new partnership is sure to have teething troubles for sure but is it really such a bad decision?

- Cosworth probably have more V8 experience than any other manufacturer on the grid.

- They have one a championship in every decade since the 1960's.

- British engine supplier working with British Team - more likely to be on the same wavelength.

- Everyone will be more or less starting from scratch with their engines.

- Won't be just an engine supllier. Cosworth will play a part in research and development.


I think there's a possibility that this could be a surprise package in a season or two.

[Orin]

Do we know how long the deal's for? I expect Cosworth to be very competitive in 2006, but I can't see them competing against the big boys in the long term. However, that both parties are collaborating in R&D is a good sign, it'd be lovely to think Williams-Cosworth could be a force to be reckoned with in the future.

Then again: Williams-Toyota (-Lexus or whatever) for 2007, resigns them to B-Team status, at least partnering Cosworth they won't be perceived as someone's second string team.

[armchair expert]

All they need is a big name sponsor to 'name' the engines and they will be okay in the near term due to the new rules.
Not sure how Cosworth (& Williams) can afford to keep up with the big boys for long.

[Romulus]

From a Cosworth perspective I think it is great.
I am not so sure that it is from a Williams perspective.


Apparently Williams are going to payfor the development of the engine but as this is a one year deal.

Why pay for developing an engine that you don't plan to use next year?

I want Williams up there and mixing it with Renault Mclaren and Ferrari.

[wildmind]

Reading the press release (and reading in-between the lines) it seems to me that the contract is for a single year AT THE MOMENT.

The way they all talk it seems to have the potential to be extended if it works and if the engines are as good as they sound. Patrick Heads remarks especially seem to indicate the future could be with Cosworth... and TBH I'd love it.

I reckon Cossy CAN build a good, strong engine that can mix it with the big boys - and I reckon Williams could build a car to match. Imagine it - a non-manufacturer team with a non-manufacturer engine taking on, and hopefully beating, the big boys

[rfus]

I might be wrong here, but why do so many people think that cosworth's previous v8 experience will lead to a great unit for 2006. Wont next years v8's be significantly different to the old dfv's ?

[Garagiste]

Yeah, it'll be different to the DFV (I should hope so or it won't be legal! )
There are characteristics specific to a V8 though - the vibrations and so forth - that may give Cosworth a bit of a head start in the short term.

Fingers crossed anyway!

[carbonfibre]

I think it will turn out as a good deal, although Williams didnt have much choice anymore.

But what i dont understand is that Williams might change to Toyota engine's after 2006, if they can get cosworth engine's and be their main team it doesnt seem that smart to change to Toyota and get 2nd rate engine's compared to Toyota.

[kodandaram]

The thing is that Cosworth will have a small advantage ( if any at all IMHO ) only for 2006 . All the other teams with their manufactuers have humungous resources and will catchup in no time . So by 2007 , a cosworth v8 might very well be behind the times and it makes sense to get equal engines as the works team from somebody like toyota who have built brilliant engines thus far .

reading the press release I was surprised to see that they are investing in the development of the engine and I think that this means that there is a possibility to extend the erlationship beyond 2006 ..which is just brilliant .

[Cindy]

It's a 1 year stop-gap deal, no matter how they try to spin it.

Also, Cossie may have been running their engine since April on a bench, but Honda, Toyota, and Ferrari have already tested their engines in a car, Cosworth has not.

Williams will have to adjust to a new partner for 06', and then prep for a new partner again in 07'. I don't see how this bit of instability will help Williams any.

[lukywill]

delighted to see the return of williams to a agressive racing form!

[jonovision_man]

Originally posted by Cindy
It's a 1 year stop-gap deal, no matter how they try to spin it.

Also, Cossie may have been running their engine since April on a bench, but Honda, Toyota, and Ferrari have already tested their engines in a car, Cosworth has not.

Williams will have to adjust to a new partner for 06', and then prep for a new partner again in 07'. I don't see how this bit of instability will help Williams any.

Unless 2007 is a "badge" instead of a switch... but if that was to be the case, it would probably start in 2006. The 2007 announcement will likely be a lot more fascinating. Too bad we have to wait.

jono

[kNt]

With all the restrictions I think engines are not very important anymore. You might be down a bit with a bad engine, but the cofg and other stuff is fixed so developping an engine shouldn't be that expensive.
But there's a big questionmark on how much money Williams is going to get without a manufacturer. If they've enough anything's possible.

[Gilles4Ever]

The DFZ and DFR did not exactly set the world alight, so Cosworths V8 experience is not a guarantee of success.

I hope they do really well though.

[Zoe]

I'm not so convinced....

- Cosworth probably have more V8 experience than any other manufacturer on the grid.

If GM would join in what would it make them? They have plenty of experience with V8s

- Everyone will be more or less starting from scratch with their engines.

Mercedes, Ferrari, Toyota and BMW would probably disagree since they have a good V8 engine repertoire in their range of production cars. I don't think they'd start from scratch thinking about how to build a V8 engine.

- Won't be just an engine supllier. Cosworth will play a part in research and development.

This could backfire as well if it demands more resources than are available at Cosworth.

What counts most imo is the availability of resources: budget, manpower, facilities. With the current state of the art in engine building, I don't think that successes from the sixties and seventies are something you can build on today.

Zoe

[MPea3]

There's always a surprise every year, and it's possible that '06 could be 1966 all over again. Who knows. Someone might get lucky and be ahead of the learning curve of the others on making the V-8's make power and be reliable, and it might just be Cosworth. Long term, I'll agree that Williams probably needs a manufacturing partner with the direction that F1 seems to be going, but for next year I think they've probably done the best that they can do.

[Rob G]

Originally posted by Zoe
If GM would join in what would it make them?

A total shock. They've never shown enough genuine interest to be in F1, and I don't see them doing so anytime in the near future, especially with the financial problems they're battling right now.

With the current state of the art in engine building, I don't think that successes from the sixties and seventies are something you can build on today.

Very true. However, I believe their Champ Car and IRL engine programs give them a bit of an edge over some of the other manufacturers who don't have a strong background of V8 racing engines. It probably won't be enough to push them to the front of the grid, but I think they'll hold their own against the might of the big manufacturers.

[Zoe]

Originally posted by Rob G
A total shock. They've never shown enough genuine interest to be in F1, and I don't see them doing so anytime in the near future, especially with the financial problems they're battling right now.

I agree, in fact I was extremely disappointed by the half-hearted attempt by GM to participate in LeMans with a Cadillac!

However my comment was in reply to the claim, that the decade-long experience Cosworth has with V8s would be a big advantage. If this would be indeed the case, then GM would win hands down simply due to their history with V8s. We all know that this is not the case ;)

Zoe

[wati]

Originally posted by Gilles4Ever
The DFZ and DFR did not exactly set the world alight, so Cosworths V8 experience is not a guarantee of success.

No, they didn't, but the Zetec-R won the world championship.

[CaptPugwash]

For my part I hope this partnership is fruitful and long lasting. It could only be a good thing for the sport generally if a team without manufacture backing were competitive.

quote:Originally posted by Zoe
If GM would join in what would it make them?

I don't think it would make them anything. Remember they bought engines from Cowsorth (Ford) and badged them as GM for the IRL series as there own engine wasn't up to the task. While they have a huge experience with V8, its mainly with low tech, low reving (comparitively) OHV type engines not the high tech screamers that is typical os a modern F1 power plant.

[MortenF1]

A good choice (and we all knew about it; this years F1's worst kept secret reward?), and I believe they've now got a small head-start on some teams. In general, Cosworth has a wealth of V8 experience, but in addition, they also got their new V8's up and running very early, clearly first of the lot. The development programme stalled a little when Red Bull chose Ferrari, but as they had come a good way already, I don't think it resulted in a huge loss. If so, I think they can recover quickly.

....However, the manufacturers learn fast, so for 2007, a deal with Toyota may indeed be the best option, as Cosworth's advantage over some of the others (I stress "some of the others" as I just can't see Cosworth being the class of the field, that sounds too good to be true, even though I'm full of optimism) will be eaten up by then.

[Corners]

I'm sure I read something about Cosworth bigging up their engine earlier this year saying they were well in advance of their schedule and very impressed with how much BHP they've found. I wouldn't be surprised at how well they do and also I wouldn't be surprised if it comes to nothing also.

[MortenF1]

Cosworth were boasting a bit about their new-for-'05 V10, and it turned out they were right. At the first part of the season, they were certainly up there*, so I'm prepared to believe them about their V8. ....Which is said to be revving more than 20K, and producing close to 850 bhp (I think it was 850 but I'm not sure.)

*but they were caught relatively quickly, but that was to be expected, atleast to some extent. Afterall, the car manufacturers have a much bigger engine-budget.

[bira]

The thing is, Williams have a commercial reality to come to terms with. The Cosworth engines might be good, but they are not free. So for a long-term base, Williams need to come around that issue. They are not financially stable right now at all.

I think there's no way Williams will stick with Cosworth long-term because of this commercial reality. Toyota are, apparently, willing to provide Williams engines for free somehow. I guess that will be a major factor, even if Cosworth prove competitive.

[kodandaram]

The financial issue might well be sorted if somebody agrees to badge the engine and fund its development - with signage on the car ...could very well happen ...but I doubt Frank will do all this dancing for 2007 . I reckon the old fox already has a deal pretty much signed for 2007 ... otherwise why would he tell AA that Button is well aware of Williams engine options for long term when asked about his engines for 2006 and beyond ?

Toyota - if they offer free engines ....there must be a catch to it . I doubt that Toyota would do that for nothing in return ... :

[Timstr11]

Originally posted by kNt
With all the restrictions I think engines are not very important anymore. You might be down a bit with a bad engine, but the cofg and other stuff is fixed so developping an engine shouldn't be that expensive.
But there's a big questionmark on how much money Williams is going to get without a manufacturer. If they've enough anything's possible.

Agreed. With the current state of play as well as the V8 engine rules I do not expect big differences between engine manufacturers. The area where I think Williams will be at a disadvantage is electronics as it will not be all under one roof. A lack of integrated chassis/engine/gearbox electronics. Last year Renault had a test car fully dedicated to testing a new integrated electronic system (Step 11).
BAR Honda now also seem to have a test car fully dedicated to a new electronic system for next year. I also remember Ralph Schumacher making a comment about Williams being behind on electronics when he saw what Toyota were doing. All this probably explains the involvement of Pi Electronics in not just engine control software.
However, the biggest difference can be made with the Aerodynamics and tyre usage (not with the engine IMO).
Who knows Williams will come out with a brilliant aero design, easy on tyres in 2007.

[roadie]

This is a great day for British motorsport. Let's hope they can pull something out of the bag next saeson and give Jenson a decent car to drive.

And here's something for you lucky-in-the-cricket-Aussies and MW.

[Sir Frank]

AMuS writes that BMW were negotiating a contract with Williams for 2 years only so that the investment of building a 25 man working group, required to supply a 2nd team, is worth it.

[baddog]

Originally posted by bira
The thing is, Williams have a commercial reality to come to terms with. The Cosworth engines might be good, but they are not free. So for a long-term base, Williams need to come around that issue. They are not financially stable right now at all.

I think there's no way Williams will stick with Cosworth long-term because of this commercial reality. Toyota are, apparently, willing to provide Williams engines for free somehow. I guess that will be a major factor, even if Cosworth prove competitive.

IF the cosworth is a world champ engine... (who knows) then there is another commercial reality to balance against that, which is the flood of sponsorship options that might come from a championship winning british car/driver/engine combo, could be enough to make the difference not?

I dont really see it happening, but if it did it would be swimming pools full of cash for sir frank..

Shaun

[lustigson]

I reckon chances are that Williams will finish 5th in this year's Championship. That would entitle them to a third car on Fridays for 2006. That could help them in development against the front runner, wouldn't it? Or is the third-car rule out the dor for next year?

[logic]

Not bad, they might do better than this year. I hope

[xype]

Originally posted by roadie
Let's hope they can pull something out of the bag next saeson and give Jenson a decent car to drive.

So he can change his mind AGAIN and want to stay at Williams, then?

Cosworth beats having no engine at all. But without a major big sponsor coming on board, Williams has a few tough years ahead.

[Riker!]

Originally posted by roadie

This is a great day for British motorsport. Let's hope they can pull something out of the bag next saeson and give Jenson a decent car to drive.

And here's something for you lucky-in-the-cricket-Aussies and MW.

lol yeah we pulled ourselves outta the fire today......man you guys looked gutted comming off the field, where as we looked like we won the ashes

[CaptPugwash]

originally posted by kodandaram
The financial issue might well be sorted if somebody agrees to badge the engine and fund its development

What about Petronas as a sponser to badge the engines? I don't know that thay have a home now Sauber have been bought by BMW. I'm sure Red Bull are chasing that one but Williams are a big team so might have more to offer than RB?

[Pilla]

I think people are slightly dillusional here, dont get me wrong I hope they do well, it would be great. However I just dont see it.

[kNt]

Originally posted by CaptPugwash


What about Petronas as a sponser to badge the engines? I don't know that thay have a home now Sauber have been bought by BMW. I'm sure Red Bull are chasing that one but Williams are a big team so might have more to offer than RB?

As I understood Peter Sauber he's bussiness with the team as a councelar next year is mainly to keep relations with Petronas and Credit Suisse so I gues they'll steay with Sauber.

[Isamu77]

Williams are doomed

[FordFan]

Engines are important, but they are so overrated by this board. Look at the Minardi versus Redbull, the Toyota versus Jordan, and the Sauber versus Ferrari. There are tire issues as well, but a great engine doesn't make you a world beater.

[kodandaram]

Petronas looks likely to stay on with BMW . All the comments from their top bosses have indicated this. One of the sites reported that its spies had come to know that Mario and Peter flew down to Frankfurt to negotiate with Petronas and were successful....so I don't think Petronas will leave.

[Witt]

Max's new engine rules were created specifically so that companies like Cosworth could maintain a presence in F1. With the dumbing down of the engine rules for next year, every engine will perform within the same range as the others.

Williams-Cosworth's ability to match the other teams will be more dependent on Williams building a decent car instead of Cosworth building a decent engine.

BTW, aren't Cosworth now an Australian-owned company?;)

[kodandaram]

Originally posted by Witt
Max's new engine rules were created specifically so that companies like Cosworth could maintain a presence in F1. With the dumbing down of the engine rules for next year, every engine will perform within the same range as the others.

Williams-Cosworth's ability to match the other teams will be more dependent on Williams building a decent car instead of Cosworth building a decent engine.

BTW, aren't Cosworth now an Australian-owned company?;)

cmon mate ...do you seriously beleive cosworth can do better than the other manufacturers ? Kalkhoven is not going to burn his own money to get cossie the funds they need ... if its going to succeed commercially ..its going to have to do it with its business porfits ...and in F1 ..they don't really have a great business for 2006 ...that is why they need a sponsor to pick up the development bills.

Having said all that it might well be that Cos enjoys an advantage in the new season ..but I am sure it won't last long. And yes - Williams will need to build a proper racing car which is quick from the outset .

[tripleM]

Originally posted by FordFan
Engines are important, but they are so overrated by this board....There are tire issues as well, but a great engine doesn't make you a world beater.

Supposedly that's the line BMW used in the divorce.

"It's not you...it's us. Well, it's sorta you & not us...."

[Timstr11]

Another area where Williams will also have to end their relations with BMW is the gearbox.
BMW and Williams co-developed the current gearbox they are running. The main case thin wall castings and the internals were actually manufactured with BMW technology in their Munich foundry. I am sure BMW will not handover their casting technology to Williams.

[taran]

It is amazing how nationality can influence the way some people look at similar events. Here are two articles, one by a British website and one by a German website. Can you spot the difference:


Pitpass article by Mike Lawrence
http://www.pitpass.c...es_art_id=25504



And now for a completely different view from the German AMuS:

http://www.auto-moto...worth.89114.htm
After some negotiating, Frank Williams has signed an engine supply deal with Cosworth for the coming season. The team owner wants a partnership for the the shortest possible duration and for the least amount of money.

It was considered common knowledge that Williams would leave BMW in 2006 and switch to Cosworth. But nothing was signed yet as Williams’ legal council checked if Williams would also lose sponsors if BMW was no longer a partner.

Now the partnership has been signed and sealed. “Cosworth is the world’s leading authority on (racing) V8 engines”, claims Williams. The once legendary engine company is just a temporary fix for Williams. The glory of Cosworth has long since faded. Cosworth has so little development money, it couldn’t even pre-finance the development of their V8 for next season. After the loss of Red Bull as partner, the company went looking for a new partner with the necessary cash.

13 million is too expensive for Williams
Frank Williams negotiated the price until the last moment. Cosworth’s price of 13 million Euro for an engine supply for just a season was too much in his eyes. Williams has been spoilt and is used to get factory engines free of charge. That goal has been targeted for 2007 again. Until then, Cosworth hopes to make a good impression in the Williams-chassis so other teams might be interested in the British V8.

Williams could have had BMW engines for 2006. But the boys from Munich insisted on a two-year deal, so the investment costs for the necessary 25-man strong customer department would be recovered.

[roadie]

That Pitpass article is an absolute load of rubbish! The other one is not much better either. Honestly who writes this crap? School kids?

[El Magnificante]

Both articles seem to be just some no-bodys opinion. Not exactly thoroughly researched, in depth journalism.

[mark f1]

originally posted by El Magnificante

Both articles seem to be just some no-bodys opinion. Not exactly thoroughly researched, in depth journalism.

Unfortunately the pitpass article is written by Mike Lawrence, who couldn't be considered a no-body....

[V10 Fireworks]

Originally posted by mark f1
originally posted by El Magnificante Unfortunately the pitpass article is written by Mike Lawrence, who couldn't be considered a no-body....

But Team BMW Sauber is going to do better than a third place, and Toyota are in fact much closer to winning races now then this time last year, no?

Williams-Cosworth will be very interesting. Hopefully it's a good idea for MW to not join Renault.