67 replies to this topic

[skinnylizard]

how different are they in terms of braking, lines. car control? etc.
who is quickest over a lap?

[MikeTekRacing]

Originally posted by skinnylizard
who is quickest over a lap?

IMO the one in the fastest car ;)

[Piif]

Originally posted by MikeTekRacing

IMO the one in the fastest car ;)

But since two of them drive the same car - and we know how that turned out - we can safely say that the fastest would be Alonso or Kimi.

[Oho]

Originally posted by Piif



But since two of them drive the same car - and we know how that turned out - we can safely say that the fastest would be Alonso or Kimi.

But after all we know that Montoya is really faster than Kimi, he only pretends to be slower when he bothers not matching Kimi for pace. He could if he wanted to, like well Percy in Black Adder

[fasttrack]

For me, the best thing of the past few races was to be able to watch the live comparison between two drivers, with throttle and brake. For example, in Turkey it was easy to see how 'hard' Alonso handles his equipment. Other drivers, such as Button, are much more 'softer', specially in the way they modulate the throttle. At Monza, there was another comparison -- I think between Barrichello and Trulli, on the first handful of laps -- where it was possible to see that Barrichello also used the throttle in a similar way to Button (by modulating, or pulsating, the throttle, instead of pushing it to the metal as soon as possible).

[MortenF1]

Quickest over one lap, Räikkönen by far, then Alonso I'd say, then Montoya. Alonso's style is very different from all the others, as he's extremely brutal on turn-in (something I thought he wouldn't be able to do this year), but it works. Montoya and Räikkönen are more convential, or even old-shool in the racing lines they sculpture, perhaps Montoya more so than Räikkönen. More often than not, he's braking in a straight line only, leaving turn-in relatively late.

[ebin]

F1 Racing did an analysis of JPM and KR's driving styles in the season preview issue. JPM is the classicist with round arcs and terrific coordination of brake, steering, throttle. KR uses straight lines to get his business done and is killer off the exits. Kimi's style is easier to manage and gentler on the tires even though he uses more steering angle to get into his corners.

At least that's what they say.

[MortenF1]

That's right, I'll have to get that copy out of the shelf again!

[armonico]

Originally posted by race addicted
Quickest over one lap, Räikkönen by far,

Kimi didn't look like a rocket in the three first races of the year, did he?

[MortenF1]

..On, for instance Malaysia? The car wasn't up there then, but that's not all too important when he's been untouchable since.

[Dr. Manhattan]

Maybe you should read the "Alonso driving style" thread. Prty posted an analysis of Alonso's style done by Peter Windsor in the F1 racing magazine, which shows how Alonso agressive steer traduces into a neutral behavior of the R25 in the curves, and allows him to overcome changing conditions in track, tires, grip, etc. This would explain why he rarely locks the tires under braking, among other things.

[Dr. Manhattan]

By the way, it's funny how after this analysis, Peter Windsor (the guy who asks the questions to the drivers after qualys and races) has become a huge fan of Alonso. He even bought the limited edition Megane Trophy, which has Alonso's name, and he shows it proudly in a photo in the magazine

[MuMu]

Peter Windsor knows nothing about F1 or motor racing. He thinks it should all be a Britney Spears/boyband thing.

[santori]

At the moment Kimi is faster than Juan in the same car but that doesn't mean he would be faster in all cars or all situations. Juan is much closer now than he was in the middle of the year and perhaps next year he will be faster.
Alonso was expected by some to be surprised by Fisi's pace over one lap and that hasn't happened. Perhaps he's the fastest. Or perhaps again its the car or situation.

[armonico]

Originally posted by race addicted
..On, for instance Malaysia? The car wasn't up there then, but that's not all too important when he's been untouchable since.

You have proven my point. Thanks ;)

[giddyup409]

after kimi raping his benz at monza, how many of you think kimi has favorable odds of finishing the gp at spa?
count me out

[Tubbs]

Originally posted by giddyup409
after kimi raping his benz at monza

Now repeat after me

You cannot break a modern F1 engine by driving. You cannot break a modern F1 engine by driving. You cannot break a modern F1 engine by driving. You cannot break a modern F1 engine by driving. You cannot break a modern F1 engine by driving. You cannot break a modern F1 engine by driving. You cannot break a modern F1 engine by driving. You cannot break a modern F1 engine by driving. You cannot break a modern F1 engine by driving. You cannot break a modern F1 engine by driving. You cannot break a modern F1 engine by driving. You cannot break a modern F1 engine by driving. You cannot break a modern F1 engine by driving. You cannot break a modern F1 engine by driving. You cannot break a modern F1 engine by driving. You cannot break a modern F1 engine by driving. You cannot break a modern F1 engine by driving. You cannot break a modern F1 engine by driving. You cannot break a modern F1 engine by driving. You cannot break a modern F1 engine by driving.

[giddyup409]

tubbs, i guess you're confident then, a? or you had to write it 21 times to believe it?;)

[bluetentacle]

Originally posted by Tubbs You cannot break a modern F1 engine by driving. You cannot break a modern F1 engine by driving.

This is an often repeated and quite simplistic view of the matter, IMO.

There's NO machine in the world, electronic or mechanical, that cannot be broken by the person operating it, if its designer fails take into account the entire range of stresses that it will have to withstand.

[Arrow]

If we had proper qualifying we could tell. I dont think there would be much in it. During the days of real qualifying Alonso and Montoya were the ones that really impressed. In 2001 Alonso sometimes outqualified Bars and Toyotas in his minardi and Montoya reeled off all those poles.
One lap qualifing seems to suit Kimi, like it does Trulli.

[Tubbs]

Originally posted by Arrow
If we had proper qualifying we could tell.

A good driver is able to adapt to different circumstances. If Montoya cannot handle that then he isn't much of a driver.

[Arrow]

Originally posted by Tubbs


A good driver is able to adapt to different circumstances. If Montoya cannot handle that then he isn't much of a driver.

A driver can adapt but that doesnt mean something suits their particular style.

[bluetentacle]

Originally posted by MuMu
Peter Windsor knows nothing about F1 or motor racing. He thinks it should all be a Britney Spears/boyband thing.

For someone who knows nothing about F1, it's awfully impressive of him to ask all those key questions in the post-race press conferences.

[Mauseri]

Originally posted by Arrow
If we had proper qualifying we could tell.

With one lap qualifying we know Kimi is more confident and consistent and can drive on the limit immediately. One lap qualifying is better measure of explosive speed but the fuel and higher propability of mistake mixes things.

There are drivers who complain one lap qualifying is boring because you don't drive 100%. Then there are drivers who do drive 100% like Kimi or Trulli ;)

You still longing Monty poles from 2002? :yawn: It was big fluke. Ralf was equally fast qualifier over the season. Particularly Nürburgring comes to mind when JPM took pole and Ralf was very close behind but then in race their tyres didnt work at all and jpm spun off.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by bluetentacle


For someone who knows nothing about F1, it's awfully impressive of him to ask all those key questions in the post-race press conferences.

How was your race? How do you think this affects the championship battle? Could you say a word in your own language?

[Mauseri]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
How was your race? How do you think this affects the championship battle? Could you say a word in your own language?

He is okay. He shouldn't go through the race and tell all the knowledge he has of formulaone. It's his job to let the driver tell and pick some interesting parts which he usually does. What are you on about? What should he ask? Do you think they should tell some special F1 crypt infos in press conference

I see you are one frustated person and this time your target happens to be Windsor.

[bluetentacle]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld


How was your race? How do you think this affects the championship battle? Could you say a word in your own language?

Apart from the standard fair, his questions usually cover all the key events that the podium finishers were involved in. Coming from someone who "knows nothing about F1 or motor racing", that's pretty impressive, don't you think?

[Ross Stonefeld]

No.


He watches the same footage as us.

[Arrow]

Originally posted by micra_k10


You still longing Monty poles from 2002? :yawn: It was big fluke. Ralf was equally fast qualifier over the season. Particularly Nürburgring comes to mind when JPM took pole and Ralf was very close behind but then in race their tyres didnt work at all and jpm spun off.

How do you fluke 7 poles? Fluke means luck, chance, circumstance which is exactly what one lap qualifying is. Back in 2002 everyone was allowed to drive to their limits so the likelyhood of any factors other than raw speed playing a role were minimal.
You can fluke something once but over a longer run you cant.

[Mauseri]

Originally posted by Arrow
How do you fluke 7 poles? Fluke means luck, chance, circumstance which is exactly what one lap qualifying is. Back in 2002 everyone was allowed to drive to their limits so the likelyhood of any factors other than raw speed playing a role were minimal.
You can fluke something once but over a longer run you cant.

I'm dissapointed you decided not to comment on first part of the post.

[Ross Stonefeld]

In 02 Williams had an awesome qualifying car.

[Arrow]

Originally posted by micra_k10

With one lap qualifying we know Kimi is more confident and consistent and can drive on the limit immediately. One lap qualifying is better measure of explosive speed but the fuel and higher propability of mistake mixes things.
.

Firstly there hasnt really been enough data for a definite comparision between them when you consider they have only ran in comparable conditions about 5 times through the whole season. You cant draw up anything over such a small sample.
Secondly, who cares about "explosive speed"? It only has value in the world of stupid one lap qualifying and nothing more.
One lap qualifying is more a game than anything else.
Im not interested in seeing how quickly someone can close in on their limit, I want to see them hit their limit, which is something we have not seen for 3 years.

[Arrow]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
In 02 Williams had an awesome qualifying car.

How many times was ralf on pole or even the front row?

[BedR]

Originally posted by Arrow

How many times was ralf on pole or even the front row?

JPM was only won 9-8 to Ralf that year in qualifyings.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Dunno, but the split was 9-8 to Juan that year, with Ralf faster on average times. No denying Montoya is the man when a pole slot is on the cards, but he definately had a great qualifying car that year. So when the car is capable of pole, its better to have Juan. But when it wasnt, Ralf was better. With a 9-8 split and absolute fractions of a second on their aggregat times, the only conclusion you can draw is that they were even that year, even though JUan has the perception of being better because we remember pole positions.

[BedR]

Anyway, McLaren is now 1 second faster than the whole field. Where are the results then??? Ferrari and Schumi made a boring championship in 2002 and 2004 with a superior car. Kimi is OK on speed, but has some flaws, while JPM did nothing this year. He hadn't any bad luck, like Fisi or KR, but still behind Schumacher.

[d_view7]

Originally posted by giddyup409
after kimi raping his benz at monza, how many of you think kimi has favorable odds of finishing the gp at spa?
count me out

Exactly how many engines has Kimi blown after he has got trough the first GP with the same engine? I think 3 of his engines has gone off in practices. Infact Kimi is the only driver to win 2 double victories with the same engine. Everything else than the engine McLaren can change so whats your point?

[Mauseri]

Originally posted by BedR
Anyway, McLaren is now 1 second faster than the whole field. Where are the results then??? Ferrari and Schumi made a boring championship in 2002 and 2004 with a superior car. Kimi is OK on speed, but has some flaws

Like losing front wings in first lap in Schumacher style

Look, Kimi's only flaw is his car broke in every second raceweekend. If not he would win even more than Schumacher ;)

[Calorus]

But in all fairness you d have to arge that this car is a direct decendant of every car that Kimi has driven since joining the BigMc. Taking that into account and how close the two have been of late, I think I'd have to go with the one in the fastest car... Which Suits them... Ask me again 3 races into next season - I think that would be the fairer time to ask, because Montoya will have had a winter giving input, with Dennis having to hedge his bets on the basis of the possibilty KR absconding.

P.S. I wish the answer were FA, KR, JPM but I really don't think it's a fair question.

[Mauseri]

Originally posted by Arrow

Firstly there hasnt really been enough data for a definite comparision between them when you consider they have only ran in comparable conditions about 5 times through the whole season. You cant draw up anything over such a small sample.
Secondly, who cares about "explosive speed"? It only has value in the world of stupid one lap qualifying and nothing more.
One lap qualifying is more a game than anything else.
Im not interested in seeing how quickly someone can close in on their limit, I want to see them hit their limit, which is something we have not seen for 3 years.

You want to see that only because you think it would help Montyoa. But look, I think one lap qualifying didn't hurt JPM more than others. In fact since one lap qualifying was introduced, he increased his approximate advantage over Ralf. And he took some poles and front rows in car which wasn't always the best. But again you are overreacting to the flukess of pole, while the times are of more interest.

Face it. Williams 2002 was good in qualifying for a reason or other than 2003 or 2004, and that helped their drivers qualify against the superior Ferrari.

[karlth]

Autosport's Mark Hughes has an interesting column in this week's issue where he discusses the futility of comparing teammates speed with today's qualifying system.

The example he discusses is Montoya and Raikkonen. Mark analysis every qualifying session, taking into account starting position, tyre compound and fuel level, ending with the conclusion that we have no way of knowing which one is quicker.

[Tubbs]

Originally posted by d_view7

Exactly how many engines has Kimi blown after he has got trough the first GP with the same engine? I think 3 of his engines has gone off in practices.

Yeah and weren't two of those new spec engines which let go after was it 10 laps in France and 30 at Monza.

[Mauseri]

Originally posted by karlth
Autosport's Mark Hughes has an interesting column in this week's issue where he discusses the futility of comparing teammates speed with today's qualifying system.

The example he discusses is Montoya and Raikkonen. Mark analysis every qualifying session, taking into account starting position, tyre compound and fuel level, ending with the conclusion that we have no way of knowing which one is quicker.

The one who makes faster times in race, and qualifies higher with more fuel :

[karlth]

Originally posted by micra_k10

The one who makes faster times in race, and qualifies higher with more fuel :

It isn't as simple as that. The only qualifying sessions he considers to have been won by either driver is Nurburgring for Raikkonen and Montreal for Montoya.

Others being too close to call.

Anyway there is also a very interesting discussion about the behaviour of the Renault R25 on corner entry. It's general tendency to understeer suits Alonso perfectly as he needs the front to be forgiving during turn-in while Fisichella driving style suits an oversteering entry better.

Quite similar to the situation at McLaren infact.

[Mauseri]

Originally posted by karlth
Others being too close to call.

It's not hard to call at all. If 0.4-0.5 sec overall is a close call ... (in qualifying)

[Arrow]

Originally posted by micra_k10

It's not hard to call at all. If 0.4-0.5 sec overall is a close call ... (in qualifying)

It is when you have the brains to comprehend how important track conditions are.

[Spunout]

Secondly, who cares about "explosive speed"? It only has value in the world of stupid one lap qualifying and nothing more.

In 2003, when JPM was taking poles with one-lap qualifying system, you were singing different tune

Maybe I´ll use the search function to dig up some quotes for our amusement?

[cordell777]

Originally posted by Spunout


In 2003, when JPM was taking poles with one-lap qualifying system, you were singing different tune

Maybe I´ll use the search function to dig up some quotes for our amusement?

[Mauseri]

Originally posted by Arrow
It is when you have the brains to comprehend how important track conditions are.

It's not question of brain power but that simply you don't want to see the truth which is clearly visible there.

You don't die if you admit Kimi has been faster this season. I would compliment JPM if he was being faster than KR. But that's simply not happining often.

[karlth]

Originally posted by micra_k10

It's not question of brain power but that simply you don't want to see the truth which is clearly visible there.

Read Hughes' article, it is in this week's Autosport.