31 replies to this topic

[jonovision_man]

An individual on another board I post to asked this question (TrackForum)... and I figured this is the best place to find the answer.

OK, let's dispense with the wise-cracks right now... Yes, of course they would no longer be "open wheel" cars if they had fenders...

But seriously, where did that originate, and is there a performance advantage? I can't see how, I would think adding a fender might get rid of some drag, although body work would add weight. :

jono

[McGuire]

It's strictly tradition. In the early days fenders and running boards were removed to reduce weight for speed contests, so it came to be that in the public mind, road cars had fenders and pure race cars did not.

Today we know there is nothing worse aerodynamically than a spinning tire and wheel hung out in the breeze, but the idea that pure race cars have exposed wheels remains. Fenders would make the cars both faster and safer but would kill the open wheel brand and image.

[Paul Ranson]

It's interesting that in British Speed Hillclimbing where you can do pretty much anything the conventional 'single seater racing car' format rules the roost.

I would think that bodywork at the front that would significantly reduce drag would make it harder to achieve the necessary downforce, and perhaps by the time the air gets to the rear it makes little difference?

Paul

[Bill Sherwood]

A rotating tyre creates lift, (and so drag) so a mudguard over them would help in those areas.
But keeping the tyres down to temperature would then become more of a problem.

[Alaweni]

Originally posted by Bill Sherwood
A rotating tyre creates lift, (and so drag) so a mudguard over them would help in those areas.
But keeping the tyres down to temperature would then become more of a problem.

What are those air vents/slates on the top of the fenders for cars like the Bentley or Audi R8? Is that to minimize the lift or to cool the tires?

[Bill Sherwood]

Originally posted by Alaweni


What are those air vents/slates on the top of the fenders for cars like the Bentley or Audi R8? Is that to minimize the lift or to cool the tires?

Yep, though for slightly different reasons - It dumps the air that build up under the guard and so any lift that's generated by that.

[wegmann]

If I'm not mistaken, the fenders in NASCAR (flared more in front than the back) somehow create downforce by taking advantage of the spinning wheel. As always, I'm not the aerodynamicist so I can't explain this.

[Engineguy]

Originally posted by wegmann
If I'm not mistaken, the fenders in NASCAR (flared more in front than the back) somehow create downforce by taking advantage of the spinning wheel. As always, I'm not the aerodynamicist so I can't explain this.

I always figured the sheetmetal area in front of the wheel opening just acted as a subtle dive plane when they pull it outward at the bottom AND/OR it acted as a siphoned exhaust to pull a vacuum under the nose area.

[Monstrobolaxa]

I read a few months ago that the FIA definition of Formula is: "car with wheels, suspension and driver in direct contact with the airflow" (something like this).

So a Formula car or open-wheeled car would be considered a prototype with fenders.

[Calorus]

What is a fender, is it a bumper or a wing (as in the part which covers a wheel, rather than an aerofoil)?

[Engineguy]

Originally posted by Calorus
What is a fender, is it a bumper or a wing (as in the part which covers a wheel, rather than an aerofoil)?

Wing.

[Catalina Park]

Oh, you mean a mudguard!

[Pedro Rodriquez]

Originally posted by McGuire
It's strictly tradition. In the early days fenders and running boards were removed to reduce weight for speed contests, so it came to be that in the public mind, road cars had fenders and pure race cars did not.

Today we know there is nothing worse aerodynamically than a spinning tire and wheel hung out in the breeze, but the idea that pure race cars have exposed wheels remains. Fenders would make the cars both faster and safer but would kill the open wheel brand and image.

And they would have been ugly as well..;)

[desmo]

That's actually the most flattering pic I've ever seen of that Cossie F1 4WD prototype...

[Pioneer]

Thats an actual car? That looks like something I would have drawn on my Trapper Keeper when I was in middle high.

[DOHC]

Originally posted by desmo
That's actually the most flattering pic I've ever seen of that Cossie F1 4WD prototype...

Agreed. For a moment I even thought that it wasn't as square and boxy as I remembered it.

[jonovision_man]

Originally posted by McGuire
It's strictly tradition. In the early days fenders and running boards were removed to reduce weight for speed contests, so it came to be that in the public mind, road cars had fenders and pure race cars did not.

Today we know there is nothing worse aerodynamically than a spinning tire and wheel hung out in the breeze, but the idea that pure race cars have exposed wheels remains. Fenders would make the cars both faster and safer but would kill the open wheel brand and image.

Seems you hit it first try. Thanks.

jono

[McGuire]

Originally posted by Pedro Rodriquez


And they would have been ugly as well..;)

Not necessarily...in streamline version the M-B W196 is fairly rated one of the most beautiful F1 cars of all time, while the same car with the conventional OW bodywork is rather ordinary in appearance...maybe even homely. But Fangio et al preferred the OW version as they could see the front tires...also, the streamline car, while faster, had some terrifying habits at high speed. In the 1950's they hadn't yet learned the the key to automotive aerodynamics: the real goal is downforce, not minimal drag.

[McGuire]

another early attempt at full bodywork from about the same time, this one the Sumar Special at Indianapolis. By the time they got it handling properly, it looked like photo #2:

[McGuire]

Another of the beautiful streamliners from the proto-era of aerodynamics, the Vanwall. I believe Frank Costin had a part in this one. Isn't it interesting how sensual and amorphous are all these shapes... vaguely marine and feminine at the same time?

[desmo]

The "mystique" of pure open wheelers is sort of lost on me, that W196 with the envelope body is sex on wheels compared to the "pure" version. The forms for those pre-downforce cars are very feminine and marine like nothing since. I always liked the Auto-Union streamliners:

http://www.audi.it/w...alta/stream.jpg

[DOHC]

Originally posted by desmo
http://www.audi.it/w...alta/stream.jpg

Definitely cooler than taking the skateboard for a spin in that ramp.

[McGuire]

Of course, converting open wheel formula cars into full-fendered "sports cars" is a sort of American tradition, dating back at the very least to the Zerex Special of that dirty cheating bastard Roger Penske. (Just kidding.)

Here is among the latest along these lines, Arnie Loyning's Swift-Viking. (Fat Boy will enjoy this.) This deal is essentially full-envelope bodywork with a Swift DB4 stuck inside... as the photo shows, you don't even need a full paint job to finish it off; just add some nice contrasting color.

This thing is an absolute rocket ship and will murder a Radical or other "true" sports racing car. Last year 18-year old Tony Loniewski won the SCCA Runoffs in CSR with this car, and this year Arnie himself (about 300 years old I think) won the same title with the exact same chassis I believe. The other thing this unit managed to do was drive up the market value of old DB4 chassis by a zillion percent.

[McGuire]

Continuing the theme, here is Jacek Mucha's similar deal, another formula-car based C sports racer but this one built around a Ralt RT41-Mazda. It's pretty damn fast too.

[shaun979]

Originally posted by McGuire
This thing is an absolute rocket ship and will murder a Radical or other "true" sports racing car.

McGuire, what makes it so quick? TIA

[McGuire]

Originally posted by shaun979


McGuire, what makes it so quick? TIA

Well lots of things I guess. First it is Arnie Loyning's, who is a wizard with cars and engines like these. Then, the Swift was originally built for a professional (more or less) OW racing series, but here it is competing against backyard sports racing specials and track day cars. And it is a formula car with central driver and fuel tank, thinly disguised as a sports car.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by McGuire
[B]Of course, converting open wheel formula cars into full-fendered "sports cars" is a sort of American tradition, dating back at the very least to the Zerex Special of that dirty cheating bastard Roger Penske. (Just kidding.)

Not just an American one.;) -- Look at some of the monstrosities that used to race in the Interserie in central Europe!

[McGuire]

Speaking of the Zerex Special, here it is...with a young Roger Penske behind the wheel, exhibiting a rather sheepish cat-eating-canary expression, as if hoping no one noticed he has taken a Cooper T53 F1 car, stuck some full-width body panels on it and is calling it a "sports car." The first demonstration of the Unfair Advantage, I suppose.

But then a howl rose up and he was forced to cut it up in the middle and make up a full-width cockpit, so then it looked like this:

[McGuire]

Then you have the Can Am revival aka the "single-seater" Can Am, in which the sanctioning body actually provided for converting F5000 cars into full-bodied deals in hopes of recreating the glory days of the original Can Am. Didn't quite happen

This is one of the better-sorted ones, the March 817, which was a conversion of the March 81C Indy car (but using a SB Chevy instead of a Cosworth) which was an adaptation of the March 811 F1 chassis, which was a more or less blatant knockoff of the Williams.



Here is one of the more interesting looking cars from the single-seater Can Am era, the Schkee...

[desmo]

Damn, I'd almost forgot that last one. I wonder if Formula Libre will ever be seen again? There's really nothing else like it.

[jimclark]

I note on the entry list that there will be a Schkee at the vintage gathering this coming weekend at Road Atlanta...wish I could make it.

http://www.svra.com/...eb/EJEN-675NDU/$file/Entry+List+-+Road+Atlanta+Season+Finale.pdf?OpenElement

[Wolf]

Originally posted by McGuire


Not necessarily...in streamline version the M-B W196 is fairly rated one of the most beautiful F1 cars of all time, while the same car with the conventional OW bodywork is rather ordinary in appearance...maybe even homely. But Fangio et al preferred the OW version as they could see the front tires...also, the streamline car, while faster, had some terrifying habits at high speed. In the 1950's they hadn't yet learned the the key to automotive aerodynamics: the real goal is downforce, not minimal drag. [/URL]

Actually they did have a clue about wings in '50ies... Related to this Mercedes picture- their Le Mans cars were equipped with air-brakes and Moss found out that keeping it 'extended out' a bit helped the traction through corners so he used it like that.

Another fine example is Swiss Michael May (drove in GPs as well) who equipped his Porsche with a proper centrally mounted wing for Nurburgring 1000km in '56. Opponents got it banned afer the practice (on safety grounds), and Porsche swiftly employed him*. Later on he worked Ferrari (I think he might've has been involved with engine for '61 Sharknose), and IIRC quite recently has been involved in som way with Jaguar.

Pic of this car: http://8w.forix.com/may/mm-ring56.jpg . A bit more info on 8W: http://8w.forix.com/may.html .