55 replies to this topic

[Jerome]

Pedra de la Rosa made some interesting remarks about driving with the Mercedes V8 engine. He told Autosport-Atlas that the cars will not only be slower, but also more difficult to drive.

That intrigues me, because I have been thinking about making a thread about the drivingstyle of the new Formula 1 car. I have to say I just don't get it. In the old days, when a car spun, and there was a slomo, I could always see there was going to be trouble. For example: someone missed his apex, steered in too sharply, oversteer, reaction, car snaps away... badabingbadaboom.

Nowadays I often see strange little spins (big accidents seem the same to me). For example, when Niki Lauda testdrove the Jaguar. He approached a slow corner, seemed to break normally, steered in, applied the throttle gently (there was an onboard as well), and oopsydaysie! He was backwards! As if he applied way too much pedal (and he didn't!)

My impression is that cars nowadays (perhaps not next year!) are very very twitchy steering in, but very correctable midcorner.

But I hope there are experienced racers on this thread who would like to react and, foremost of all, explain! Is Pedro right about the change in driving style? And how it affect and whom will it effect?

[wawawa]

I remember reading somewhere that in Barcelona 1994, when Schumacher's Benetton was stuck in 5th gear for 2/3rds of the race, he was able to keep up a fairly decent pace by altering his lines so as to maximize midcorner speed. He was able to adapt his lines very quickly, apparently because of his sports-car experience.

[Jerome]

Attention Bira, I did not know it was a quote taken from Atlas. I read it on f1racing.nl, which did not quote your site... http://www.f1racing....hp?newsID=98273

But thanx for the editing

[BedR]

two words:

MICHAEL SCHUMACHER

[Jerome]

Yeah, that was what I was thinking... but think of it. If people HAVE to drive a certain a way, it is possible they discover: hey, this method is better than my old one.

Don't laugh about that. There have been very succesfull drivers who late in life discovered some weird things about their style.

But on topic: are there any friction circle expers wishing to elaborate?

[Earthling]

Its simple really, and Pedro describes it perfectly. The driver has to carry more speed into the corner cuz the cars have alot of grip, and they will have to brake less due to the slower speeds they will be at.

Ofcourse there is more to it as well, but thats just the begining.

[Jerome]

Okay earthling, that is the part I understand. What I don't understand is what makes the current cars so twitchy in corner entry.

Thoughts?

[karlth]

What de la Rosa is describing is identical to the correct way to drive a rental kart.

Interestingly Alain Prost always said that a race car should be driven according to its engine so we might well see some changes.

[Jerome]

Karlth:

So you mean: break earlier, early turn in, sort the bastard out in the mid of the corner (dixit Eddy Irvine, meaning: entry exit not that important)?

Instead of: brake late, turn in late, sort the bastard out before the corner, point the nose right and vrooooom?

[MPea3]

Pretty much all of these drivers can drive fast and will adapt to whatever they need to do. After all, the evolution of the current cars, with increases in aero, grip, and horsepower, means that they probably drive somewhat differently than just a few years ago. The things that make someone a champion at this level are as much mental as anything, and those who have what it takes to put together effective and consistant weekends will still be up front, given a competitive car.

I still think that there's a decent chance that one car may end up being ahead of others on the learning curve, similar to 1966, and surprise everyone.

[HP]

Thing is in comparison to the V10 his impression might be right. But it's the same for everyone, and possibly the current style is faster to the one that PdlR describes.


Let's see V8 also means less top speed before a corner. Given the same brake power, they can brake later and gain some time. Or they could brake as is now and gain some time on the exit. Sounds to me like the different driving style we see between current drivers nowadays. Now if aero is further reduced, then I'd agree that people have to drive a little more like PdlR describes.

[jimm]

If true look for LESS passing next year. Less braking means shorter breaking zones...Add to that that they will be going slower at top speed anyway...


This V-8 stuff was a crap idea. Sounds like they will be big karts...All grip and no power. Maybe next year it will come down to Button and Trulli as they have the best Karting records (before the MS express hits me , he was good in Karts also but no where as good as Trulli who was a karting legend).

[xype]

Originally posted by BedR
two words:

JACQUES VILLENEUVE

There, fixed that for you!

[Keffo]

Originally posted by wawawa
I remember reading somewhere that in Barcelona 1994, when Schumacher's Benetton was stuck in 5th gear for 2/3rds of the race, he was able to keep up a fairly decent pace by altering his lines so as to maximize midcorner speed. He was able to adapt his lines very quickly, apparently because of his sports-car experience.

only Hakkinen was able to overtake him, and he finished behind Damon Hill in second if I'm correct

[peroa]

Originally posted by jimm
If true look for LESS passing next year. Less braking means shorter breaking zones...Add to that that they will be going slower at top speed anyway...


This V-8 stuff was a crap idea. Sounds like they will be big karts...All grip and no power. Maybe next year it will come down to Button and Trulli as they have the best Karting records (before the MS express hits me , he was good in Karts also but no where as good as Trulli who was a karting legend).

Of course.

The weight stays the same, the brakes stay the same, the aero stays the same (more or less).
That means less topspeed, means braking 50m before the corner, not 75 or 100m like now.

With the current downforce on the front we won`t see any passing at all, at least if the one in fornt doesn`t screw up.

So again a crappy rule.

[kozmo]

while obviously the V8's will produce less power/torque than the V10's, perhaps de la Rosa's comments are somewhat unique to McLaren.

i.e.: the Mercedes engine maybe more deficient in the power delivery area at this stage of development than its competitors...

[Palio]

while I understand a transmission to v8 engine will result in a change in driving style, I dont see the point of asking people, who quite possibly have never driven a v8 let alone a v10 or a race car, to assess credibly how the styles will change and who will be more benefited...

[xype]

Originally posted by Palio
while I understand a transmission to v8 engine will result in a change in driving style, I dont see the point of asking people, who quite possibly have never driven a v8 let alone a v10 or a race car, to assess credibly how the styles will change and who will be more benefited...

You're spoiling our party!

[Jerome]

Palio:

I have to admit I posted this thread a bit under false pretenses. I am interested (if anyone knows!) what will be the effect of the V8's, but I am equally or me transfixed by the strange (in my eyes) handling of the current formula 1 cars. Which is, I think: Unforgiving on the entry, forgiving on the midcorner en exit. Perhaps that 'problem' will get even worse.

So... discuss! Perhaps this idea of mine is totally false. I am open for any critique.

[Alfisti]

You have to say that smooth drivers are going to benefit so Schumi jnr and Button come to mind.

Montoya/Webber types may need to adjust.

[dnbn]

Originally posted by Jerome.Inen
So... discuss! Perhaps this idea of mine is totally false. I am open for any critique.

My understanding is that it has nothing to do with the handling of the car. It has to do with the lower power/torque of the V8. Currently they brake very late and very hard and use the excellent acceleration of the V10 to get up to speed from the slow exit. With the V8 they will need to brake earlier and more gently, resulting in lower entry speed but not as low exit speed, so less reliance on the acceleration.

[karlth]

Originally posted by Alfisti
You have to say that smooth drivers are going to benefit so Schumi jnr and Button come to mind.

Montoya/Webber types may need to adjust.

Montoya is in fact a very smooth driver. It is when driving a car not setup to his liking that he seems a very ragged. Montoya's driving has been likened to Nelson Piquet's.

The real ball breakers in my opinion are Alonso and the Schumacher brothers.

http://forums.atlasf...&threadid=45657

[Jerome]

What's clean driving nowadays?


Can't say I immediately agree with you, Alfisti. I once saw the telemetry of Herbert and Schumacher compared for one curve, and it was quite shocking. Herberts line on the graph looked smooth and simple. One turn in, one exit turn, a clear decreasing line for the throttle. Schumachers line looked like that of a idiot. 'Sixteen' little steeringmovements turn in, 'sixteen' turnouts, midcorner there were about a 'twelve' corrections... but in that corner alone Schumacher won 0.2 on Herbert... That's why I never bought the theories about Schumacher driving with driving aids and his teammates without... it would have looked totally different... (Alonso has also some very interesting input past the apex. Totally unexpected!)

My assumption is that clean drivers like Button and Coulthard are going to suffer a little in qualifying, but benefit in the race if we keep the one tire rule. Alonso and Schumacher will benefit, and also Villeneuve, I think. Because Jacques, if I remember correctly, likes to set his car with as little wing as possible. Something that brought him in conflict with Patrick Head many times.

My idea is, that under breaking, the current formula 1 cars 'suffer' from a heavy loading and unloading from rear to front tires. I.E: the centrifugal powers that travel straight forward. Once the power is on, it doesn't matter anymore, because the g forces will work sideways through the car.

Could that be an explanation why F1 cars are so midcorner friendly?

[Menace]

Drivers like Alonso and Kimi will adjust the best IMHO, as well as Trulli Schumacher and Button.

[jimm]

Originally posted by karlth


Montoya is in fact a very smooth driver. It is when driving a car not setup to his liking that he seems a very ragged. Montoya's driving has been likened to Nelson Piquet's.

The real ball breakers in my opinion are Alonso and the Schumacher brothers.

http://forums.atlasf...&threadid=45657

Actually, looking from onboards, Button may be the most smooth.. One turn in, no sawing at the wheel, little correction on the way out.

[MrSlow]

I remember a discussion about different driving styles with bikes. It was when the MotoGP was called GP500 and Doohan was the champ. Apparently, the GP500 bikes had plenty power and a brutal delivery of that power. Because of that the riders drove tight corners more V-shaped than smooth. They dived into the corner, braked in a more or less straight line, turned the bike around and accelerated. The 125 drivers on he other hand always had very smooth lines because the engine was not there. I do not think the V8 will make as much difference as between a 125 and 500 GP bike, but sure, it will be a bit different.

But. Then they managed to get those bikes a bit more driveable. And Valentino came around. Suddenly the "big" guys abandoned the V-shaped lines and started to drive smooth. If it was engine managment, Valentino or both I can not say. But I do believe that the engine characteristic will dictate the driving style, not the power. And as always - the best drivers will adapt to it quickest. Look at last years discussions about how the one tyre rule would affect the driving style and who would manage it best. Best drivers then are best now.

[eoin]

Nah, it won't make much difference. By the time we get to next march we will see engines with ~800hp, which is where we were a few years ago.

[Jerome]

Excellent Post, mr. Slow... with one critique. Isn't it obvious that Coulthard benefited from the one tyre rule... and he was washed out last year (or so people said?)

So sometimes some drivers do suddenly emerge because of a new technical rule...

I read somewhere that Clark was the ideal driver for the light engined Formula 1. By contrast, I believe Helmut Marko once said about Lauda (I am not sure) that the Austrian got better the more power his machinery got...

But the characteristics of the engine, that remark is really on the mark. The question is: which engine will be the most torguey? And suddenly I get visions of the old days... that some engines will work fantastic at some tracks, and at other tracks much less... that would be fun, no, if different engines would have stronger tracks from eachother?

[FordFan]

The V8s are down on power now, but give them three years and they will easily be in the 850 range or so, just like the V10s were LAST YEAR - when no one was complaining about how wimpy F1 engines were. The power curves might be significantly different though, as there will likely be a greater rev range.

The race-weekend/two race-weekends/v8/and eventually 6 race-weekend rules are as much about keeping power in the same range as cost savings. Good god, where do you think power would be now if we still had unlimited turbos? No one wants 1800 BHP engines.

[crackr]

These guys are pros, I believe the new engines will not change current driver ranking... Some will have to adjust more than others but in the end we´ll see the same difference between top and average drivers.

[F1Champion]

Originally posted by Jerome.Inen
What's clean driving nowadays?


Can't say I immediately agree with you, Alfisti. I once saw the telemetry of Herbert and Schumacher compared for one curve, and it was quite shocking. Herberts line on the graph looked smooth and simple. One turn in, one exit turn, a clear decreasing line for the throttle. Schumachers line looked like that of a idiot. 'Sixteen' little steeringmovements turn in, 'sixteen' turnouts, midcorner there were about a 'twelve' corrections... but in that corner alone Schumacher won 0.2 on Herbert... That's why I never bought the theories about Schumacher driving with driving aids and his teammates without... it would have looked totally different...

Mindboggling, isn't it.



As for changing the driving styles all that is really required is later braking. The entry and mid corner speeds should be about the same. Possibly exit speeds will be mostly affected because of the reduced acceleration out of a corner, so some drivers relying on their exit speed may have to adjust a little.

[MrSlow]

Originally posted by F1Champion
As for changing the driving styles all that is really required is later braking.

Later braking gives by default a more unstable car at turn in. That can very easily make it neccesary to slow down more than if you brake early. You simply cannot really turn in hard if your rear have already lost grip. Waiting for the rear to regain grip will also force you to wait until you can get on the throttle again. Lower corner entry speed AND later throttle application is propably exactly what you want to avoid if you are low on power. But again, a very peaky engine might not be very pleasant unless the car is pointing in the direction of the next straight and therefore reject any attempt of smoothness. That said, I guess TC will handle the peakyness and the driver should just make sure that he does not lose too much speed and keep the revs up.
So if I have to guess, I say they will brake earlier, smoother, than before. If they have to change anything at all that is.

The software guys will have a lot of work though...

[amiga1]

Im sure a different engine will change driving styles a bit but...

Its nothing new to F1

In fact i seem to remember a current driver doing quite well in a cosworth v8 - with less power than these 20,000 rpm beasts.

[MPea3]

Originally posted by amiga1
Im sure a different engine will change driving styles a bit but...

Its nothing new to F1

In fact i seem to remember a current driver doing quite well in a cosworth v8 - with less power than these 20,000 rpm beasts.

Very true, but a 3.5 litre V-8...

[angst]

Originally posted by MPea3


Very true, but a 3.5 litre V-8...

... and with much less aero grip than today.

Again and again its so clear. Reduce the downforce - significantly - and get rid of that awful TC. Two simple steps to better racing, a reduction in speed and allowing greater (more visible)distinction between driving styles and talent.

[Spunout]

Can't say I immediately agree with you, Alfisti. I once saw the telemetry of Herbert and Schumacher compared for one curve, and it was quite shocking. Herberts line on the graph looked smooth and simple. One turn in, one exit turn, a clear decreasing line for the throttle. Schumachers line looked like that of a idiot. 'Sixteen' little steeringmovements turn in, 'sixteen' turnouts, midcorner there were about a 'twelve' corrections... but in that corner alone Schumacher won 0.2 on Herbert... That's why I never bought the theories about Schumacher driving with driving aids and his teammates without... it would have looked totally different... (Alonso has also some very interesting input past the apex. Totally unexpected!)

What you are talking about is steering graph. I bet my a** if you take a look at SPEED graph you´ll notice Schumacher has smaller "drop" compared to Herbert. Kind of "U" instead of "V". Basically this means being consistently on the limit in all the parts of the corner.

[MrSlow]

Originally posted by Spunout


What you are talking about is steering graph. I bet my a** if you take a look at SPEED graph you´ll notice Schumacher has smaller "drop" compared to Herbert. Kind of "U" instead of "V". Basically this means being consistently on the limit in all the parts of the corner.

I have seen that plot also. I do not think Herbert was better then, or as good as, Schumi, but looking at one corner does not really say much. Maybe Herbert simply got it wrong. Was there other cars there? A wasp in the cockpit? Tyres where cooked? Car setup was bad? I surely would like to see many different corners at different occasions before I would say that "this is the difference in driving style".

[baddog]

the power will be extremely high.. not as high as right now but higher than the rest of the worlds racing cars, so whats the big deal?

gokarts my ass

[karlth]

Originally posted by baddog
the power will be extremely high.. not as high as right now but higher than the rest of the worlds racing cars, so whats the big deal?

gokarts my ass

Well you obviously don't know one from the other Shaun.

The driving style de la Rosa is talking about is the optimal one used for rental 4 stroke GoKarts. Rental karts are so underpowered that it becomes essential to keep the speed up through the corners as acceleration is so slow. No one is saying the driving style will be idential but the concept as described by Pedro is the same.

[baddog]

Originally posted by karlth


Well you obviously don't know one from the other Shaun.

The driving style de la Rosa is talking about is the optimal one used for rental 4 stroke GoKarts. Rental karts are so underpowered that it becomes essential to keep the speed up through the corners as acceleration is so slow. No one is saying the driving style will be idential but the concept as described by Pedro is the same.

Its essential in ALL cars to keep the speed in corners.. its just more necessary the lower the power to weight ratio. it just seems cheap and thoughtless to describe F1 cars of any stripe as like karts.. especially as it was originally said as a disparaging thing.. 'god they will just be big karts'.. they wont.

Shaun

[jimm]

Originally posted by baddog
the power will be extremely high.. not as high as right now but higher than the rest of the worlds racing cars, so whats the big deal?

gokarts my ass

The final HP number will get close to what it was about 4-5 years ago (~800) BUT to do that they will have to twist the **** out of it. THis means the torque and drivability will not be near what it is now to get that high number. While I agree with your other point (that drivers always have to keep speed up), you drive to maximize the cars strong parts and minimize the rest. If the car has more power than grip, you want to get the thing turned in a hurry so you can step down on the gas.

if you have crap loads of grip and no power, you drive to keep the speed up because you can't get it back on the way out.

[jimm]

BTW..... Power wise they will not be much above CART or IRL

[baddog]

power to weight ratio?

[Admiral Thrawn]

What is the current power estimate of the V8's? 750hp?

If so, that is where the V10's were in 1999 / 2000.

The problem is that the cars have way more grip now, so it is difficult to compare based just on engine output.

[Calorus]

Originally posted by baddog
power to weight ratio?

Champcar: 750 BHP / 710 kg = 1055 BHP/Tonne
Indy Racing League: 650 BHP / 690 = 942 BHP/Tonne
F1: (Expected) 800 BHP / 650 kg = 1230 BHP/Tonne


Differences:

F1 vs CART -> + 16.5% BHP/Tonne
F1 vs IRL -> + 30.5% BHP/Tonne


For Driving styles: See Also

[Spunout]

I have seen that plot also. I do not think Herbert was better then, or as good as, Schumi, but looking at one corner does not really say much. Maybe Herbert simply got it wrong. Was there other cars there? A wasp in the cockpit? Tyres where cooked? Car setup was bad? I surely would like to see many different corners at different occasions before I would say that "this is the difference in driving style".

Not sure if you can call it a "style" thing, but when it comes to speed graph, that´s usually one of the differences between good and great drivers.

[baddog]

Originally posted by Calorus


Champcar: 750 BHP / 710 kg = 1055 BHP/Tonne
Indy Racing League: 650 BHP / 690 = 942 BHP/Tonne
F1: (Expected) 800 BHP / 650 kg = 1230 BHP/Tonne


Differences:

F1 vs CART -> + 16.5% BHP/Tonne
F1 vs IRL -> + 30.5% BHP/Tonne


For Driving styles: See Also

Thanks..

Shaun

[MrSlow]

Originally posted by Spunout


Not sure if you can call it a "style" thing, but when it comes to speed graph, that´s usually one of the differences between good and great drivers.

But it does not change the fact that one, carefully selected, graph can show anything. I was out karting a couple of weeks ago and there was one corner that was kind of tricky. At lap 11 or so I could really feel that I got it absolutely right. Next lap was again not perfect. Looking at the laptimes, lap 11 was the best. I am sure that if Johnny Herbert himself had selected a corner to compare it would have looked different.

[HBoss]

Weren't there some talks about F1 cars losing ballast and becomming 50kg lighter? What ever happened of that?

[Jerome]

The telemetry I referred to were both their fastest qualifying times from Silverstone 1994.

Throttle, steering, speed, braking

Quite comprehensive