24 replies to this topic

[crono33]

good morning

is there any source of information on how these crankshafts are manufactured?

gm

[Kevin Thomas]

In the book Ferrari Formula One, They show the insides of the 2000 Ferrari engine. The crankshaft is a fairly conventional billet steel piece. The only exotic bits are tungsten inserts in the counterweights. In Race Engine Tech Magazine, F1 engine directors are frequently asked about the details of internal parts. There have been suggestions that some teams are using built-up welded hollow crankshafts but no one aknowleges that usually saying the cost would be prohibitive.

[desmo]

http://www.racecar.c...dkecrankshafts/

This site, Doug Kiddie Engineering's, used to have some movies on it showing how a modern racing crank is machined from billet which I can't seem to find anymore.. They've done some F1 cranks for Cosworth. Maybe if you wrote them they'd have more info.

[TestaRoasta]

http://ferrarichat.c...ead.php?t=70540

[knighty]

I'm told that in the late 90's Cosworth started producing what they term a "composite crank".......no dont get all excited, not a carbon fibre crankshaft..........what they were aparrently doingwas rather than inserting round tungsten inserts into the steel counterweights, they were making the entire counterweight from tungsten and bolting it on to the crank.

I have seen this done in the heavy diesel crankshaft industry, like 2 metre long cranks for V18 tanks and generators)......... I once visited the Krupp-Mavilor crank machining plant in southern france and this was a common solution for long-stroke forged crankshafts, the reason being that the designers needed loads of counterweight mass which was impossible to forge, therefore they simply bolted the counterweights on using two bolts - a very simple solution.

The reason Cosworth pursued this option (i'm told) was the maximum swept radius of the crank could be reduced, therefor the crank could be mounted lower, hence a lower centre of gravity, and the car corners quicker, not to mention the possible reduced crank rotating inertia???...

I'm told the F1 chassis designers give the engine designers free blow jobs when they reduce the engine C of G by only 1mm..........hope that helps!

If someone from Cosworth is reading the above - and its wrong - please feel free to correct me!

knighty

[knighty]

I forgot to mention - the company that makes crankshafts for Ferrari F1 and Renault F1 is called "Chambon" in france.......do a web search and they may have some interesting stuff on a wed-site

The F1 V10 049 Ferrari crank pictures on the other link are well interesting!!!!......well worth a look

SK

[jgm]

If hollow cranks are being used how would you get oil along the crankshaft to lubricate the
journals and big ends?

[McGuire]

Originally posted by crono33
good morning

is there any source of information on how these crankshafts are manufactured?

gm

Now it can be told...in order to obtain the incredibly tight tolerances and dimensional control required in its high-precision engines, Honda created this race of miniature engine builders. The top secret program utilizes a combination of selective breeding and intensive reverse hormone therapy...

[Lazarus II]

Originally posted by McGuire


Now it can be told...in order to obtain the incredibly tight tolerances and dimensional control required in its high-precision engines, Honda created this race of miniature engine builders. The top secret program utilizes a combination of selective breeding and intensive reverse hormone therapy...

Oompa Loompa's!

I always wondered were they all went

[zac510]

Originally posted by Lazarus II

Oompa Loompa's!

I always wondered were they all went

On topic, can anybody repost the photos from that ferrari forum thread? It appears to be a member only forum. Thanks.

[desmo]

It is member's only, I joined so I could download the images onto my hard drive. They are small.

[Kevin Thomas]

In the latest issue of EVO magazine there's an article on the Toyota F1 engine including a good pic of the crankshaft.

[TestaRoasta]

Can you post it?

[Kevin Thomas]

Can you post it?

Unfortunatly i don't have a scanner.

[Rainer Nyberg]

Somebody posted pictures in this forum, of Peugeot V10 internals, some time ago.

I will try to search for that thread, and see if the picture links still are alive.

[Rainer Nyberg]

This thread has pics in the first post.

[desmo]

http://members.atlas...iatech2001.html

Here's a direct link to the photos, although a read through the thread Rainier linked to will perhaps offer a little more insight into what is shown.

[12.9:1]

Some perspective on the massive hardware needed to make 900hp
Here a Peugeot


[IMG]http://img251.images...f1finger5kd.jpg[/IMG]

[Rainer Nyberg]

Notice how short the throw really is (about 45 mm) , no wonder +19K rpm is possible.

[TestaRoasta]

So what do the bolts in the counterweights do?

[NTSOS]

I think that's how they add metal (heavier?) to help balance the crank.

John

[TestaRoasta]

No it looks like they're simply removable rather than a part of the whole cast. Not that they'd need to remove them it's simply cheaper to produce.

[desmo]

They are high density tungsten or DU bolt on counterweights. They designed to be tunable by changing their masses, though other teams use plugs that aren't changable. Tuning might be in order in response to changes in reciprocating masses or redlines.

[knighty]

as I told you above - otherwise known as a "composite crank" - bolt on tungsten counterweights which drastically reduce the swept radius of the crank, allowing a more compact crank-case and much lower engine installation ;-)

[m9a3r5i7o2n]

I seem to note a certain amount of surprise that counterweights are bolted onto the crankshaft, but this is old stuff. It was used on the Oakland-Pontiac V-8 of 1930-32-32 V-8 on the 180 degrees crankshaft used there. No telling how much earlier than that! M.L. Anderson