28 replies to this topic

[danielking]

I have a couple of curious photographs that I am hoping someone may be able to help with!

Today, seven photos were provided to me by a Spanish contributor, Toni Arch, taken by his father during the 1951 Spanish Grand Prix at Pedralbes. These are now online here.

First is the #10 car seen in this photo , a BRM P15. In various entry lists, #10 either doesn't appear or it appears as belonging to Peter Whitehead with a private Ferrari 375. Reg Parnell is listed with BRM #40 and there is also an unallocated #42 BRM but neither of these drivers appear in the final results. Is this photo of Parnell running the #10, or perhaps Whitehead in the spare BRM?

Second - the #30 car in this photo . All sources that I've seen indicate that #30 belonged to Chiron and his Talbot Lago T26C. But in the picture we can see what looks like a Maserati 4CLT/48. Did Chiron test a Maserati in practice? or is this one of the other Maserati entrants. (i.e. did the allocated entry numbers occassionally change between practice & the race?)

Anything info that you fellows can provide will be very much appreciated!

[gerard BARATHIEU]

DANIEL,

on the car N°28 or 38 ot seems to be PHILIPPE ETANCELIN and not LOUIS ROSIER.

More in 1951 LOUIS ROSIER xaw not at the end pf his career :it was killed in a race in 1956 !!!

[Roger Clark]

I think the pictures are from 1950, not 1951.

[Barry Boor]

I think Roger is correct.

The driver of car #6 is MUCH too thin to be Gonzales!

[Toni Arch]

Hello everybody,

First of all, thanks to Daniel King to introduce to me in this Forum with the doubt that I send to him
I've been searching a lot for datas about these pics.

I assume that it has to be 1951, not 1950 attending to the info that appears at http://www.silhouet....50/1950.html#py ("1950 Non-World Championship Formula One Races") As a resume:

1950

1 Alberto Ascari Ferrari 375 '375-2'
2 Dorino Serafini Ferrari 375 '375-1'
3 Piero Taruffi Ferrari 340/F1 '125-C-04'
4 Philippe Etancelin Talbot-Lago T26C '110008'
5 Emmanuel de Graffenried Maserati 4CLT/48 '1601'
6 Yves Giraud-Cabantous Talbot-Lago T26C '110002'
7 Georges Grignard Talbot-Lago T26C '110006'
NC Henri Louveau Talbot-Lago T26C-GS '110001'
NC David Murray Maserati 4CLT/48 '1595'
NC Juan Jover Maserati Milano-Speluzzi

Fastest Lap: Alberto Ascari (Ferrari 375), 2:24.2, 157.90 kph


Did Not Finish
Robert Manzon Simca-Gordini T15 '0014-GC'
Peter Walker BRM P15 MkI '152'
André Simon Simca-Gordini T15 '0011-GC'
Francisco Godia-Sales Maserati 4CLT/50 Milano
Louis Chiron Maserati 4CLT/48 '1606'
Johnny Claes Talbot-Lago T26C '110011'
Louis Rosier Talbot-Lago T26C '110001'
"B.Bira" Maserati 4CLT/48 '1598'
Maurice Trintignant Simca-Gordini T15 '0012-GC'
Luigi Chinetti Ferrari 125 '125-C-02'
Franco Rol Maserati 4CLT/48 '1604'
Reg Parnell BRM P15 MkI '151'

Then, number 6 should be a Talbot Lago, but we can see clearly a Ferrari, but it's true that the driver in car #6 seems to be too thin to be Gonzalez. Of course, it the info can be wrong, as well as can be wrong the info for 1951.

And yes, Rosier run a lot of GPs (15) after Pedralbes 51 (The wrong comment comes from a mistake from my side) Unfortunatelly, it's also true that Rosier did not reach the good results as in precedent years.
Also taking a look to the driver (as with Gonzalez), it's very common to see pictures of Etancelin wearing a kinf of cap instead a helmet, and in the picture seems to be seen a cap. But then, the car should be number 34, attending to the sources, and the number in the pic cannot be a "4" (can be a 2,3,6,8,9,0) attending to the curve of the upper part of the number.

It's very confused.

[Tomas Karlsson]

Quote

Then, number 6 should be a Talbot Lago,

Sorry, but where are the starting list for 1950? I haven't seen any numbers from that event. Just results and grid places.
The picture of the BRM must be from 1950. And it is definitely Etancelin in the Lago-Talbot.

[ReWind]

The pictures definitely are from 1950.

# 2 Ferrari 375/F1 (Alberto Ascari)
# 6 Ferrari 375/F1 (Dorino Serafini)
# 10 BRM P15 (Peter Walker)
# 28 Talbot-Lago T26C (César Apezteguía) non-starter
# 30 Maserati 4CLT/48 (Toulo de Graffenried)
# 38 Maserati 4CLT/48 (David Murray)
I cannot identify the starting number in the last picture. Étancelin had car # 20.

[Toni Arch]

I begin to see that the pictures could belong to the non-championship Grand Prix at Pedralbes in 1950, not 1951.

Until now, I was very sure that it was 1951, but there is a couple of facts that make me think in different way:

- In the pictures set, there is no Alfa Romeo neither Simca Gordini. (both run in 1951, only Simca in 1950). It could be very surprising that the aficionado photographer didn't take any picture of any of the Alfa Romeo cars, mainly beeing one of those cars who won the race and the 1951 championship (Fangio) in Pedralbes.
- I just have seen a pic of Ascari with his Ferrari in Pedralbes ( at http://www.jmfangio....95108espana.htm ). The Scuderia cars wear numbers 2, 4, 6, 8 painted in the front and rear (in the car's nose and tail). In the posted pics, also Ferraris wear number 2 and 6 (coincidence) but in the tail and in the car's side, not in the nose!! (definitely).

Thanks for your comments that made me look again and deeper.

Final question: Somebody can post or indicate a link with the entries (with car number!) of the non-championship Grand Prix at Pedralbes in 1950? It colud be the way to know each driver's name of the posted pics.

Thanks again

[Reyna]

Hola !

From the book "Los Grandes Premios Internacionales de la Penya Rhin" Pablo Gimeno Vallador.

1950. X Gran Premio Penya Rhin, VII Copa Barcelona.

[Toni Arch]

Roger is correct. 1950. With the datas sent by Reyna and ReWind I have all the info that i was searching.

Thanks everybody to help in this who-is-who of these old pictures.

If somebody is interested, I have similar pictures from F2 & F3 at Montjuic - Barcelona 1967 (Clark, Hill, Hulme, Rindt, etc.) In this case, I think that there is no confussion about the identities (I was sure, but from now on I'll ask in the forum before to say it loud)

Best Regards

[Egon Thurner]

Just a few notes on chassis-numbers

#22 Giraud-Cabantous raced 110002. (110003 never was in Ecurie-France-ownership)
#16 Chinetti's car was NOT 125 C-02. This car was the Thinwall. Chinetti raced Vallones ex-F2, with 125-engine.

[GIGLEUX]

I fully agree with Egon . In 1950 110003 was existing no more as at the beginning of that same year it was transformed and updated by the works and renumbered 110053!

[GIGLEUX]

I doubt 110002 and 110007 were entered under the Ecurie France banner.
-110002 ex Ecurie Mundia-Course for "Raph" in 1948, was bought conjointly by Guy Mairesse and Paul Vallée, founder and owner of Ecurie France and entered by this team for Mairesse during the 1949 season.
-110007 was entered by Ecurie France from end of 1948 to end of 1949 for Chiron except at the GP du Salon 1949 (Schell).
-For 1950 both men were rather occupied by their respective businesses so Ecurie France was put on stand-by and never entered cars. Mairesse drove in three races and loaned 110002 to G.Cabantous who entered it under his name. 110007 never raced in 1950 but Cesar Apezteguia had an arrangement with Vallée and loaned the car for the Penya-Rhin race. He used it during practice but by the same time Vallée sold the car to Harry Dale (Australia) and poor Apezteguia can't use the car he had entered, for the race. My sources never said the car was entered by Ecurie France.

[a_tifoosi]

I write here so not to open a new topic.

I’d like to know which is the Talbot-Lago car –as well as its chassis number– that César Apezteguía used during the Penya Rhin race of 1948.

Darren Galpin’s website (whose information –I assume– comes from Paul Sheldon) states that Apezteguía used a Talbot-Lago T26C in Barcelona 1948. Apezteguía, however, wrote in its self-edited autobiograpy (“Vivencias”, 2001) that he bought a ‘Talbot 26 SS’ from Ciro Bassadona, ‘the same car used by Louis Rosier in Albi 1947 and Pau 1948’.

According to Galpin’s website, Rosier drove the Talbot-Lago T150SS ‘90111’ in Albi and a Talbot-Lago ‘82930’ in Pau. Pierre Darmendrail’s book on Pau, on the other hand, wrote that Apezteguía used a Talbot-Lago SS, whilst Christian Navaux talks about a Talbot-Lago 150C.

Ángel Campos’s book on Pedralbes reproduces the text of Apezteguía’s autobiography; can’t look up Pablo Gimeno’s “Penya Rhin” as I don’t own it.

Summing up: T26C, T26SS, T150SS and T150C, not taking into account the chassis number.

Thanks in advance.


Narcís.
(Excuse my written English)

Edited by a_tifoosi, 05 May 2012 - 19:53.

[marlondylan]

Apezteguía drove Louis Rosier's "Speciale", the T150C S/N 82933 (1936), renumbered 82930 in 1937 (changed for customs reasons to take part in the 1937 Mille Miglia), rebodied in 1946/1947.

Edited by marlondylan, 05 May 2012 - 20:52.

[a_tifoosi]

Thanks for your answer, marlondylan.

Continuing with my questions: which were the chassis numbers of Scuderia Automobilistica Spagnola da Corsa's four Maserati 4CL (shown below in Albi '48 with yellow bonnets)? Which were the drivers entered for these cars? Did finally Bira drive one of them?


© Casimir Aumacellas/Arxiu Nacional de Catalunya

Thanks for your help.
Narcís.

Edited by a_tifoosi, 07 May 2012 - 07:22.

[David McKinney]

Three four-cyilnder Maseratis were leased by the Spanish team from Scuderia Milan for the 1948 Albi race. Bira drove a fourth Milan car

In the picture are a Scuderia Ambrosiana 4CL 1580 (Villoresi), then 4CM 1555 (Godia) and at the back of the line, behind Comotti’s Talbot, the 4CLs 1568 and 1570 of Jover (18) and Fabregas (22), or possibly the other way around

[a_tifoosi]

Thanks David.

The image previously posted is a bit confusing. Here, the same photo with a better quality:



The first car is not Villoresi's 4CL (#10, Scuderia Ambrosiana), but Paco Godia's 4CL (#20, Scuderia Automobilistica Spagnola da Corsa, 1555?). Below, a photo showing this car:


Both © Casimir Aumacellas/Arxiu Nacional de Catalunya

Behind Godia's Maserati we can see a second car from the Spanish team (yellow bonnet) without number, and at the back –behind the Talbot–, both #18 (Jover, 1568?)) and #22 (Fàbregas –whose reserve driver was Enrique Tintoré–, 1570?).

Therefore, the Spanish team had four cars from the Scuderia Milan. It seems that this fourth car –second in the photo– isn't included in the entry list. César Apezteguía wrote in his autobiography that he drove a car for 'four or five laps' (the unnamed one?), but for the race he lent the car to Bira (although it's not clear whether this loan was in Albi, Valentino –GP d'Italia– or Monthléry –GP du Salon–). That's the reason why I was asking for Bira's car in Albi.

I'd like to confirm the chassis numbers of those three #18, #20 and #22 cars and, finally, to identify the unnamed car (driver, chassis, etc.). Thanks again!


Narcís.

Edited by a_tifoosi, 07 May 2012 - 17:17.

[Doug Nye]

What magnificent photos!

DCN - green with envy...

[David McKinney]

My response was based on the knowledge that there were only three Spanish-entered cars listed in the programme

An unraced spare means that the 'lead' car is indeed Godia's 4CL, 1580.

The unnumbered car behind it, 4CM 1555, seems to be the unraced one, and the two at the back 1568 and 1570

Whether or not 1555 is the car Bira took over (as No.12) is unclear. He had run his own 4CLT/48 in practice but not, it seems, in the race

[PAULOAFONSOTREVISAN123]

The Maserati 4CM chassis1555 come to Brazil in 1952 and clearly is the second car featured in the image above, the one with the Spanish colors. This body with tipical front grill was made by Waeffler in Lausanne, Swiss in 1945. The car is at my property and it is at Museu do Automobilismo Brasileiro, here in Passo Fundo (Brazil's South Region). In my collection I also have another Maserati, the 4CLT48 chassis 1594 of Villoresi. PAULO TREVISAN. 

[Michael Oliver]

PAULOAFONSOTREVISAN123, on 18 Aug 2014 - 21:46, said:

The Maserati 4CM chassis1555 come to Brazil in 1952 and clearly is the second car featured in the image above, the one with the Spanish colors. This body with tipical front grill was made by Waeffler in Lausanne, Swiss in 1945. The car is at my property and it is at Museu do Automobilismo Brasileiro, here in Passo Fundo (Brazil's South Region). In my collection I also have another Maserati, the 4CLT48 chassis 1594 of Villoresi. PAULO TREVISAN. 

 

There is a great article on the 1951 and 1954 races here:

 

http://8000vueltas.c...campaign=buffer

 

Hope this link works OK!

[JoBo]

a_tifoosi, on 07 May 2012 - 16:48, said:

Thanks David.

The image previously posted is a bit confusing. Here, the same photo with a better quality:



The first car is not Villoresi's 4CL (#10, Scuderia Ambrosiana), but Paco Godia's 4CL (#20, Scuderia Automobilistica Spagnola da Corsa, 1555?). Below, a photo showing this car:


Both © Casimir Aumacellas/Arxiu Nacional de Catalunya

Behind Godia's Maserati we can see a second car from the Spanish team (yellow bonnet) without number, and at the back –behind the Talbot–, both #18 (Jover, 1568?)) and #22 (Fàbregas –whose reserve driver was Enrique Tintoré–, 1570?).

Therefore, the Spanish team had four cars from the Scuderia Milan. It seems that this fourth car –second in the photo– isn't included in the entry list. César Apezteguía wrote in his autobiography that he drove a car for 'four or five laps' (the unnamed one?), but for the race he lent the car to Bira (although it's not clear whether this loan was in Albi, Valentino –GP d'Italia– or Monthléry –GP du Salon–). That's the reason why I was asking for Bira's car in Albi.

I'd like to confirm the chassis numbers of those three #18, #20 and #22 cars and, finally, to identify the unnamed car (driver, chassis, etc.). Thanks again!


Narcís.

 

I stumbled over this older thread from 2012.

 

Narcis:

there was no 4CL with number #1555. This VIN was given to a 4CM. What could happen was that the 4CM #1555 had been converted to 4CL-specs and kept that chassis number.

 

JoBo

Edited by JoBo, 28 January 2015 - 08:19.

[JoBo]

PAULOAFONSOTREVISAN123, on 18 Aug 2014 - 21:46, said:

The Maserati 4CM chassis1555 come to Brazil in 1952 and clearly is the second car featured in the image above, the one with the Spanish colors. This body with tipical front grill was made by Waeffler in Lausanne, Swiss in 1945. The car is at my property and it is at Museu do Automobilismo Brasileiro, here in Passo Fundo (Brazil's South Region). In my collection I also have another Maserati, the 4CLT48 chassis 1594 of Villoresi. PAULO TREVISAN. 

 

Paulo:

not long ago I received this info from Australia:

"...4 CL/CM #1555 was owned by my partners late father Peter Lovett during the 1950-60s . He entered #1555 in the Gp of Australia at Lowood , 12 June 1960 but did not start. It changed hands soon after. I have a photo of it circa mid 90s after a full restoration. I believe this car is still in Melbourne , Australia...."

 

So - who`s who in the zoo..?

 

JoBo

Edited by JoBo, 28 January 2015 - 08:25.

[ozpata]

https://oscarplada.blogspot.com/

[cooper997]

JoBo, on 28 Jan 2015 - 08:23, said:

Paulo:

not long ago I received this info from Australia:

"...4 CL/CM #1555 was owned by my partners late father Peter Lovett during the 1950-60s . He entered #1555 in the Gp of Australia at Lowood , 12 June 1960 but did not start. It changed hands soon after. I have a photo of it circa mid 90s after a full restoration. I believe this car is still in Melbourne , Australia...."

 

So - who`s who in the zoo..?

 

JoBo

 

Lovett was also listed in the Lowood AGP meeting's  Event 2 Division 2 Scratch Race 4 laps

36 P Lovett (NSW) Maserati 1492cc

 

I can't say I'm up with which Maserati is which, but I'm assuming this car was ex Cec Warren/Arnold Glass.

 

So could this car be the late Ian Barker's in more recent times?

 

Stephen

[john medley]

Stephen, correct, and now with Rob Barker and the Barker family, work on it being done by David Rapley

[cooper997]

Thanks John. With David tinkering away on it there's half a chance to see it at a Historic meeting soonish. If I'm still on the right path I may have a photo of the car sitting engineless at one of the Phillip Island Classics. Sometime in the last decade.

 

Stephen

[cooper997]

Here it is on the cover of December 1953 AMS showing Peter Vennermark driving it at the November 1953 Albert Park AGP meeting.

 

 

Stephen