35 replies to this topic

[MODE]

do you know where we can find this beautiful car with its dramatic history (Elio De Angelis) ? I remember having seen one in the Donington museum, it seems not to be there anymore, some remembers of an american museum ?

[Gary C]

Doesn't Bernie own them all??

[MODE]

I know that BMW owns a BT52 and a BT54.

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by Gary C
Doesn't Bernie own them all??

Apparently Bernie still has nearly all of the Brabhams from his time - a couple have escaped (BT49 raced in TGP and some earlier cars), and he was out of it when the last cars were made (the ones that have been for sale as a 'complete team' for years), apart from those he doesn't appear to have ever sold any of them - maybe he had to give some to BMW but they would have had to fight hard for them!!

The ones that were (are?) on display in Donington were on loan from his collection, as was a BT49 that was raced in TGP by a friend of his. The same is probably true of any other cars in other museums.

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by Peter Morley

...a couple have escaped; a BT49 raced in TGP...

As I understand it, BCE leased/loaned/sold that particular BT49.

And I also believe that, as Peter says, he owns almost all the cars from his tenure as MRD gaffer.

With regard to the exhibits at Donington, they rotate them don't they? Standard practice for a museum with a great stock of exhibits, I think.

[MODE]

Originally posted by Twin Window
As I understand it, BCE leased/loaned/sold that particular BT49.

The BT49 who runs in TGP is owned by its driver. He bought it from another collector who was driving it in TGP too I think, and this one bought it from G Murray who had kept this car. For the other Brabham cars, yes, Bernie seems to have them all (except BT44 and BT42), if there are cars in museums (except the ones owned by BMW), in which museums are they ?
There was an interesting article in a Racecar Engineering issue 2 or 3 years ago about Activa, a company which restored Brabham BMW cars (BT52, BT53, BT54). It was said in the article that they were owned by a collector "based in Switzerland". After some research, it seems that Brabham didn't sell any car to collectors, that mysterious collector "based in Switzerland" should be Bernie himself.

[Gary C]

'that mysterious collector "based in Switzerland" should be Bernie himself.'
It is indeed!

[jorism]

There is also a 1972 BT37 running in Grand Prix Masters, that was the first car Bernie run after Tauranac left.

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by Twin Window
As I understand it, BCE leased/loaned/sold that particular BT49.

And I also believe that, as Peter says, he owns almost all the cars from his tenure as MRD gaffer.

With regard to the exhibits at Donington, they rotate them don't they? Standard practice for a museum with a great stock of exhibits, I think.

At one time there were 2 BT49s running in TGP (or whatever it was called at the time).

The escapee that had been given to Gordon Murray and had been on display in something like the Coventry motor Museum, this has recently been sold to another collector/driver.

Then there was the car lent by Bernie to his friend - who was given the choice of all of them, and chose his favourite (Brizilian GP winner?).
Part of the arrangement covered the presentation of the car - e.g. it had to be presented in a very high standard as did the trailer etc.
This will have returned to Bernie's stable.

The other earlier cars that have escaped - BT34, BT37, BT42, BT44 were all sold to other teams in period (e.g. the early days before Bernie could keep all of them - the lack of sponsorship on these cars in period might account for that!).
BT34 & BT37 (?) are one-offs (or only 1 surviving) that Bernie doesn't have but I'm sure he will have at least one off each of the others.

[simonlewisbooks]

I was told once by a good source that at the end of each season one Brabham went into Bernie's "Fort Knox" collection and one was loaned to Donington for display. ALL the other chassis were cut up and destroyed by the mechanics on Bernie's orders....
That must mean a LOT of chassis' and a great deal of history going into the crusher over the years.

Simon Lewis :

[2F-001]

Is BT34 still owned by Ean Pugh?

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by 2F-001
Is BT34 still owned by Ean Pugh?

Yes, and he has been going pretty well with it in TGP.

[f1steveuk]

There's a bit of mis-information so far, I'll try and help!!

I worked for BCE for 6 years, and sometimes that included the "museum". Ignoring the road cars (all very interesting, Mussolini's Lancia etc etc) he did indeed have ALL the cars his factory built, none were cut up, and he didn't like to sell any of them! BMW have some on loan, but I counted 4 BT55s on the shelves (yep they are stored on big boys shelves). There are no BT42s, and only one BT44 (ex Pace, never been touched and I just could not reach the pedals, how tall was Pace?). There are all the drawings, wind tunnel models and the very very rare BT43 (I think that was the model number given to the battery trolley!!). There was also everything left over from FORCE, all the THL1s and 2s, VW10 and McLaren M23-8 (or 8/2 or 10 which ever you want to call it, but the Hunt championship car). But in summary ALL of BCE's Brabhams are there or in his other big shed which indeed is in Swizterland. For some reason BCE and Tom fell out, and Bernie recovered all his cars from Donnington as well. I believe BCE tried to get the BT34 back and the BT42s and the other BT44s, but of course the prices asked for were silly in the extreme. Finally, the BT49, sorry Gordon didn't have one and BCE lent out runners to the TGP (well that's what he said) and one was returned to BT48 spec to go along with the real BT48 sitting down the end. I was horrified when RD had to restore the BT46b, because it was soooooooooooo original, but maybe it was better it ran again!!

[MCS]

Originally posted by f1steveuk
...There are all the drawings, wind tunnel models and the very very rare BT43 (I think that was the model number given to the battery trolley!!)...

Not quite, it was the one-off F5000 model, currently languishing at the bottom of the Thames according to this thread...

http://forums.autosp...ht=Brabham BT43

Wonder if Mr Ecclestone would be interested in funding a salvage job so that he could add it to his collection...?

[Cris]

These sheds of his, these racks...any pictures perchance?

[Gary C]

'These sheds of his, these racks...any pictures perchance?'
You must be joking???? ?

[MODE]

Originally posted by f1steveuk

I worked for BCE for 6 years, and sometimes that included the "museum". Ignoring the road cars (all very interesting, Mussolini's Lancia etc etc) he did indeed have ALL the cars his factory built, none were cut up, and he didn't like to sell any of them! BMW have some on loan, but I counted 4 BT55s on the shelves (yep they are stored on big boys shelves). There are no BT42s, and only one BT44 (ex Pace, never been touched and I just could not reach the pedals, how tall was Pace?). There are all the drawings, wind tunnel models and the very very rare BT43 (I think that was the model number given to the battery trolley!!). There was also everything left over from FORCE, all the THL1s and 2s, VW10 and McLaren M23-8 (or 8/2 or 10 which ever you want to call it, but the Hunt championship car). But in summary ALL of BCE's Brabhams are there or in his other big shed which indeed is in Swizterland. For some reason BCE and Tom fell out, and Bernie recovered all his cars from Donnington as well. I believe BCE tried to get the BT34 back and the BT42s and the other BT44s, but of course the prices asked for were silly in the extreme. Finally, the BT49, sorry Gordon didn't have one and BCE lent out runners to the TGP (well that's what he said) and one was returned to BT48 spec to go along with the real BT48 sitting down the end. I was horrified when RD had to restore the BT46b, because it was soooooooooooo original, but maybe it was better it ran again!!

It seems we've got here the definitive answer, if BCE needs a shed keeper in Switzerland, I'm his man

[h4887]

Originally posted by Peter Morley



Then there was the car lent by Bernie to his friend -

So Bernie has a friend?

[Jonathan]

Originally posted by f1steveuk
I was horrified when RD had to restore the BT46b, because it was soooooooooooo original, but maybe it was better it ran again!!

The BT46 was origionally designed to use a two layer monoque (the idea being to use the entire chassis as an engine cooling radiator) was it not ?

This design was later hastily adapted to use these huge radiators in front of the rear wheels, and then as the BT46B used a special engine mounted fan in an attempt to better cool the large flat-twelve Alfa engine. but was later ruled illegal because the engine mounted fan was thought to aid in ground effects (effectively a mobile areodynamic device). It never raced after winning the Swedish Grand Prix in 1978. I miss this car.

[Antoine Pilette]

Originally posted by h4887


So Bernie has a friend?

My uncle Teddy saw him at the Monaco GP this year and Bernie doesn't seem such an evil person!
I have a picture but I don't dare to post it here with out their authorizations!

[MODE]

Originally posted by Jonathan
The BT46 was origionally designed to use a two layer monoque (the idea being to use the entire chassis as an engine cooling radiator) was it not ?

This design was later hastily adapted to use these huge radiators in front of the rear wheels, and then as the BT46B used a special engine mounted fan in an attempt to better cool the large flat-twelve Alfa engine. but was later ruled illegal because the engine mounted fan was thought to aid in ground effects (effectively a mobile areodynamic device). It never raced after winning the Swedish Grand Prix in 1978. I miss this car.

It was at Goodwood in 2003, 2004 ? first and last time you could see it ? I saw and have photos but always with the body :

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by Jonathan

The BT46 was origionally designed to use a two layer monoque (the idea being to use the entire chassis as an engine cooling radiator) was it not ?

I'm not really a technical person but, from memory, the concept behind the BT46 was that it's liquid cooling would be achieved by heat-transfer. I *think* this was supposed to work rather like solar heating, but in reverse...

The original chassis was launched in 1977 (in Martini livery) and had these 'solar' type panels placed over the slab sides of the monocoque plus on the upper deck of the engine cover. At that point it had either no conventional radiators, or maybe very small ones. (I think it had none.)

Certainly the BT46 never raced in that configuration; indeed for the first races of 1978 the team dusted off modified BT45s ('C's?)

Originally posted by Cris

These sheds of his, these racks...any pictures perchance?

I believe Ron Dennis stores his [massive] collection in exactly the same way.

[f1steveuk]

The BT 46 was originally going to be "surface cooled", but it over heated!!!!

The 46B as Gordon told me had a cooling fan from a tank fitted!!! This sucked air through a top mounted radiator, and of course from the sealed with rubber skirts, flat bottom. Sadly the fan wasn't designed to spin at the revs Gordon required, and the first ones exploded, until Brabham's had rebuilt them with new materials. The car was never banned, Brabham withdrew it, then the idea was banned, just after Gordon had drawn up a twin fan version. It was a shame to restore it though, it really was nice as it was, ex Lauda Sweden winner, then driven by Piquet and retired.

[mfd]

Maybe off topic, slightly but did someone mention Ron Dennis ?? !!!

I once saw the "Dexion" racking of some McLaren F1 cars in a unit on the Albert Drive Industrial Estate. IIRC they were stacked three high and some were bubble wrapped ! In the same unit were ten identical (whatever the current year) West showcars. Each one was a part of the arrangement with the co-sponsors, where they were all given a car for their own promotional use.

There was stuff in different units all over that trading estate. There was one for the paint shop, another for the F3000 team, then another just with spares for the roadcar.

Of all of these the most amazing thing I saw was in the back of the TAG Electronics building. There was the McLaren land speed record car. Yes, it really existed, but the project got canned. It was sitting next to a pristine MP4/4 that was destined for the Senna Foundation.

Back to the Brabhams...I think the racking system also existed at the Bernie facility at Biggin Hill airfield. I heard this from a well known car racer & restorer, as he was summoned by BCE down to look at a BT49 with a view to making sure it was raceable etc. He said he was absolutely staggered by the whole deal !

[f1steveuk]

Yep it was Biggin, my office used to look over the racking, and regardless of how high the racking was, they were dusted regularly! The BT52s were all in the original colours, e.g the black and white, and the white and black after BCE changed his mind which looked better. I sometimes wonder if the "wee one" knows what he has, for example the original San Marino Trophy was just sitting on a book case in the corner of an aircraft hanger!

[f1steveuk]

Oh yes Ron Dennis. He was well known as a mechanic at Brabham in the black jack days, he then set up Rondel with Neil Trundle, then MP, which lead on to McLaren. All the cars used to be displayed at H/Q, but West got the hump with laods of red and white cars in the lobby, so loads were pcked up and sent to the south coast. I like the story that all the steering wheel trophies from Marlboro races were hung on the wall, until someone told Ron they were based on the Ferrari wheel, then down they came!!

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by f1steveuk
There's a bit of mis-information so far, I'll try and help!!

I worked for BCE for 6 years, and sometimes that included the "museum". I believe BCE tried to get the BT34 back and the BT42s and the other BT44s, but of course the prices asked for were silly in the extreme. Finally, the BT49, sorry Gordon didn't have one and BCE lent out runners to the TGP (well that's what he said) and one was returned to BT48 spec to go along with the real BT48 sitting down the end.

Must be some interesting stories from those 6 years?

BT34 was sold at auction and Ean Pugh (plus the under-bidder) clearly thought the price wasn't crazy!

I heard that Bernie also failed to buy the Rindt Cooper Maserati (as his manager he apparently would like his cars as well - but so does someone else!), because when he was a long way along with the deal he said the price should be dollars not pounds, so someone else bought the car (which was not outrageously priced even in pounds).
Presumably he has enough cars that he doesn't mind turning down the odd one or two (like the Mercedes W154 - which really was ridiculously expensive!).

There was a BT49 on display in a British museum (not Donington), it had apparently been given to someone (I forget who, but Gordon is the obvious candidate) because they were happy to take a large amount of money for it, and since then it has been sold onto someone else. Given that Bernie didn't stop the sale(s) he presumably agrees that it isn't his (e.g. he doesn't think that his legal people could retrieve it)?

I understand that a replica Auto-Union is joining the Lancia D-50 and very original ex-Colin Crabbe Mercedes W125 amongst other goodies.

Is part (?) of Abba Cogan's collection not located at Biggin as well? Or has he taken over Bernie's hanger/shelving?

[Macca]

Apart from the Brabhams and some one-offs, BCE has what was the collection of Ferrari single-seaters that Albert Obrist had; he got the whole collection (something to do with security on a deal) but sold the sportscars, including the most original P4 (c/n 0856) for $10m allegedly, and presumably top prices for the others too.

Most of them haven't been seen publicly in years, apart from a 1951 4.5L car that Schumacher has demonstrated occasionally and that was demonstrated at a See Red meeting at Brands a few years ago.

Does anyone know if those cars are at Biggin too? Among them is said to be the 1966 312F1 c/n 010 in which Surtees won the Belgian GP.

The ex-Rindt Cooper-Maserati that BCE was after; was it the T86 'flatiron' that was displayed at Coys in 2000 (IIRC)?

Paul M

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by Macca

The ex-Rindt Cooper-Maserati that BCE was after; was it the T86 'flatiron' that was displayed at Coys in 2000 (IIRC)?

Paul M

Possibly not - it would have been around 2000 when I saw the car (in Folkingham) and they were only just starting to restore it.

My recollection is that it had been driven by Ickx as well as Rindt but I'm not certain.

It was in original green/white colours, the big problem was the engine had been "modified" to make a wine rack out of the block! But the price included restoration so whatever the cost/difficulty of a new block was down to the vendor.

Thanks for reminding me about the Obrist collection I was trying to work out if the original 156 engine that John Bosch has fitted to the Chris Rea sharknose replica came from that?

[mark f1]

Question I have is what happens to all of this when BCE eventually departs......?

[Cris]

This goes a ways towards answering that question...

http://www.timesonli...1741755,00.html

[simonlewisbooks]

Originally posted by Cris
This goes a ways towards answering that question...

http://www.timesonli...1741755,00.html

More than a few errors in that piece - if BCE gave up racing in '51 no wonder he didn't qualify for the 1957 Monaco GP in his Connaught, he must have been 'ring rusty' in the extreme....
As for the reasons Stallone didn't make his film about F1, I'm sure there was a lot more to it than that. Didn't it have something to do with harming the image of the sport and a certain plot element in particular?

Simon

[Macca]

http://www.ferrarihi...ollections.html

(List of notable Ferrari collections past & present.)

I'm not sure that the 120deg V6 engine that Terry Hoyle fitted in the ex-Rea sharknose came from Obrist's collection - Bardinon had quite a few spare engines.

Paul M

[f1steveuk]

Talk inside Bakersville at the time said Sly's film was given the boot for two reasons. 1] BCE wanted large sum of money (surely not!!). 2] Some of us got to read the plot, "Rocky in a car" and scenes like the street chase fro Drivel, sorry Driven were in there, so it's not much of a surprise!!

Adam Faith WAS to have played Bernie, it was agreed years ago that if anything ever happened that needed someone to play BCE, it would be Adam, can't remember if he was about when Driven was being planned. If he was, he would have played him, if he wasn't BCE would hae said that no one would

[deangelis86]

At last, I discover the picture I found years ago:



Now...can any of you chaps tell me where you think this BT55 is, or was, located?

[Pedro 917]

Although I have never been there, it looks like the Stavelot museum. There's a VDS Lola F5000 next to it.