107 replies to this topic

[man]

So, A1 GP will finally be kicking off this weekend at the slightly watered down but still splendid Brands Hatch GP circuit. Many were sceptical when the concept was initially announced but it seems that for now at least, it has succeeded in generating substantial interest from the mainstream media and fans alike. So how does it go down with the old farts in the nostalgia forum?;)

In my opinion, there is a slight inherent contradiction within the formula; The idea assumes that the series will enable us to see which nation is the best (the motor racing version of the football World Cup) however, not having Schumacher representing Germany or Fisichella representing Italy for instance would be comparable of France not using Henry for their football line-up. Does this 'flaw' defeat the purpose of A1 GP?

So how do you perceive it? Just another one make series tarted up to attract the tabloid press or does it have some substance?

[2F-001]

The contradictions seem to be rather more than "slight"!
The series will, in no way, indicate the relative motor racing prowess of the various competing nations. As a franchise operation, the only qualification for getting an entry appears to be a successful business pitch, or, more likely, money. Who determined that Arden Motorsport and Alex Lloyd were the cream of the crop and should therefore represent "my" nation in this "World Cup"? Under what circumstances can they be relegated and replaced by someone else?

The marketing and numerous media interviews with the operators have claimed that this is the first time that racing has been staged with an inter-nation element to the competition, which not the case - maybe as a full series in recent years it is, but the hype is extraordianary. And the hype-to-reality ratio is one of the areas they seem pledged to redress relative to "FIA F1". (Have the FIA really let them use the GP handle?)

Further, the teams... whatever the nationality of the entrepreneurs and celebrities fronting up or attracting the finance for the franchises, the teams actually running the cars and going racing (at least, those likely to be winning) are European (largely British) outfits from F3000, GP2 etc: Supernova, Arden, West Surrey Racing, DAMS, Alan Docking, Carlin, Rosberg, John Village, Jan Lammers etc, with a few of them running more than one national team. The spread of driver experience (and likely, ability too) is quite alarming. I'll be interested in the spread of performance from front-to-back and to what extent "the show" might take precedence.
If they want to stage a series on this basis, fine, but the hype seems just as great as we're used to elsewhere.

You may have gathered that I'm not wholly enthusiastic about it - but then I've never regarded motorsport as an activity in which I need to "support" any particular competitor in order to enjoy it. Sure, there have been individuals, teams or machines that I've had a particular interest in or a eagerness to see do well, either because of a personal contact, a technical interest or whatever, but that has never been central to my enjoyment of the sport.
I guess I have to accept that for A1GP, like a lot of higher-profile motorsport currently, I am not in the target audience for the marketing.

Does anyone know how Ralph Firman Jnr gets to represent Ireland?

(One last gripe, the A1GP machine - displayed at the Goodwood FOS - is possibly the ugliest single-seater I have ever seen!)

[Maldwyn]

I've read a great deal about A1GP, and at no point has the vast media coverage sparked any level of interest for me. An idea of a 'World Cup of Motorsport' has no merit in my eyes as my interest rests with the participants rather than a dreamed up concept of nations competing against each other.

[Gilles4Ever]

Its a joke!

The cars are ugly!
The teams that do well in GP2, F3000, F3 whatever that run A1GP teams will do well in A1GP - The "country" that contracted the best team to run the car wins.
The race format will not encourage racing!

It will certainly be a "show" for the first few races while its a novelty. When the spectators realise nationality has nothing to do with results it will be another one make series like GP2 F3 etc, except that there is no benefit to the driver's carreer for doing well.

[BRG]

Originally posted by 2F-001
The contradictions seem to be rather more than "slight"!

Who determined that Arden Motorsport and Alex Lloyd were the cream of the crop and should therefore represent "my" nation in this "World Cup"?

Fast John did - you want to argue with him? Be glad he didn't decide to put his son Henry in the car, like Jones and Lauda are doing. Anyway it is Robbie Kerr 'representing' us Brands - a former F3 champion and deserving of a break at this level (depending on what level A1GP turns out to be at!)

Does anyone know how Ralph Firman Jnr gets to represent Ireland?

His mother is Irish - he raced as an Irishman in f1. But I do think it is a bit cynical - firstly to get around Eddie Jordan for the F1 seat and now to get a shot in A1GP.

However, I agree that the World Cup thing is a bit artificial but at least it is someone trying something new. And putting some effort into promoting the sport for once (at least they are in the British media - don't know about elsewhere). The front and back page of Metro this morning was a Sky Sports ad for A1GP. So let's at least give them a chance. A bit of competition is always a good thing and if A1GP is a success and puts the wind up F1 a bit, that has to be a (very) good thing. Bernie the monopolist has had it all his own way for far too long.

[scheivlak]

Let's wait and see.

Some of my thoughts ATM:
- the cars are extremely ugly (why the high nose? Why not something more like, say, a Champ Car layout if you can determine the chassis for everyone?)
- the nations concept doensn't work for me as such and, as already mentioned, is fakish as well
- that said, I kinda like the idea that drivers from e.g. some Asian countries get a chance, might help driver development over there and stimulate interest
- the difference in driver abilities one can expect is kinda Nostalgia appealing (professionals vs. amateurs in the ol'days)
- it'll be interesting to see how cars perform on some new circuits
- the points system (10-9-8-7-6 etc) is beyond stupid. An incentive to defensive racing and avoiding risky passes.

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by 2F-001
The contradictions seem to be rather more than "slight"!

You may have gathered that I'm not wholly enthusiastic about it - but then I've never regarded motorsport as an activity in which I need to "support" any particular competitor in order to enjoy it. Sure, there have been individuals, teams or machines that I've had a particular interest in or a eagerness to see do well, either because of a personal contact, a technical interest or whatever, but that has never been central to my enjoyment of the sport.
I guess I have to accept that for A1GP, like a lot of higher-profile motorsport currently, I am not in the target audience for the marketing.

Does anyone know how Ralph Firman Jnr gets to represent Ireland?

Like you I don't understand the idea that you need to support someone to enjoy something.

I particularly hate the idea of events that suggest one country is better than another, especially when based on the performance of a few individuals.

Given that one UK team is running teams representing 3 different non-UK countries, the whole concept is quite ridiculous anyway.

But the concept might work (in marketing terms, rather than racing) - the cars could produce better racing than F1 (but so does the M25), and the idea might appeal to the type of person who has recently decided that cricket is their favourite sport.

Didn't Ralph Firman go on a stag night to Dublin once (or was it that he once drank a whole pint of Guiness!), that would probably make him Irish enough for the purposes of this "World Cup".

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Peter Morley
.....I particularly hate the idea of events that suggest one country is better than another, especially when based on the performance of a few individuals.....

One of the core problems of our modern world...

Olympians, for instance, shouldn't be representing their country, they should be allowed to be individuals.

[petefenelon]

As someone who tends towards anarchism and is generally anti-nationalistic, the 'World Cup' aspect of it doesn't really interest me; I'd actually be more interested if the teams were competing under their own names as to me it's really a sort of second-level teams' championship hindered by driver choice rules ;) -- but I can see that in the developing world where motorsport isn't well established (oh and the USA ;)) having a 'local' team to support is a way to get instant buy-in.

(It's almost like the old P1GP idea, where 'tribal loyalties' to football teams were to be transported into racing).

What does interest me is it looks like a well-screwed-together racing car, and of the drivers linked with it, there are some well-established names with good track records and potential; with a bit of luck it'll provide some racing of a quality similar to GP2.

Before GP2 emerged as the (surprisingly!) excellent formula it's turned out to be (it didn't look very promising to me, but it's got the grip/power/aero balance just right and it's turned out to be much more fun than one-make F3000 ever was), A1GP was my last remaining hope for a truly international single-seater formula that I could remain interested in (I've always been a CART/Champcar fan but I see that as a North American series that occasionally races overseas!).

Anyway, my take on A1GP is that on the whole it's going to be a Good Thing:
- it provides a ready made way to take top level motorsport into new markets
- it keeps single-seater racing in the public eye during the Northern Hemisphere 'off season'.
- there seems to be nothing much wrong with the cars, most of the teams, and a fair number of the drivers

The "hardcore" racing fans will look through the national colours and see a straight battle between solid teams and drivers; the newcomers will get hooked by the national angle and hopefully progress in their interest in the sport. It's got something for everyone.

[Maldwyn]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
One of the core problems of our modern world...

Olympians, for instance, shouldn't be representing their country, they should be allowed to be individuals.

I agree. The A1GP idea of a competition to find the best nation has the potential to be divisive, particularly as the nationality element appears to reflect the financial backing of the teams more than anything else.

Having said that I agree that it may take interest in motorsport to new areas, which is a good thing.

[WHITE]

Originally posted by Ray Bell


One of the core problems of our modern world...

Olympians, for instance, shouldn't be representing their country, they should be allowed to be individuals.

Well Ray, I think they have always been individuals pretending to represent a country.

[WHITE]

Originally posted by Maldwyn

I agree. The A1GP idea of a competition to find the best nation has the potential to be divisive, particularly as the nationality element appears to reflect the financial backing of the teams more than anything else.

Would nation A be better than nation B simply by winning more car races ?

[RTH]

It's 'one make' racing

[Frank de Jong]

I'm curious about how the show will be - I'm positive about the whole thing now. Great idea to have some motorsport over the winter apart from the Paris-Dakar in which I'm not very interested. I think there's a lot of interest in the Netherlands - and "we" have a truly national team with Lammers.
I do admire the fact that they managed to get 25 cars on the grid on sunday, where P1GP only created hype and nothing else.
To create a link to "nostalgia": in the Opel/Vauxhall Lotus days, there was a nations cup there as well, providing entertaining motorsport.

I only hope that A1GP has a better start than GP2 or Renault World Series: so no failing clutches and/or brakes please.

[ensign14]

The nation thing is a great idea to pitch to non-motor racing markets. China, Pakistan and India - population between them getting on for 2,500,000,000 people - have a direct interest in the outcome, unlike in F1. Middle Eastern countries will be interested in the Lebanese entry. The fact that Al-Jazeera is covering the races live is significant.

And, if the nationality aspect does not prove popular, they can merely shift it over to a more conventional 1 make series - having already hooked maybe half of the world.

I wonder whether this nation basis is merely a sprat to catch a mackerel. Like the free Krispy Kremes they used to dole out in the city centre. Now everyone's addicted we have to get our fix at a big price from Selfridges...

And, of course, it is a direct throw-back to the very earliest days of motoring. Somewhere, the likes of Charron and Thery will be exchanging knowing smiles. Question is whether Basil Shabaan can pull of an Edgesque shock result?

I am very excited by the prospect of good drivers in identical cars. Should demonstrate the real talents.

[2F-001]

My earlier post did focus on the more negative points that came to mind -- I was actually thinking about going along to Brands to take a look... (I believe TGP is on the bill too).

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by RTH
It's 'one make' racing

So, to a first approximation, is every major single-seater category these days. F1 cars are so closely regulated that by 2008 (control tyre, new engine regs, downforce-reduction) they'll be virtually spec cars; the whole Renault hierarchy of FR1600/FR2000/WSR/GP2 is one-make, FBMW's one make, FNippon's one make now, F3's 1.5-make (you can try to build something to beat Dallara consistently but let's face it, you're not going to bother...), Champcar will be one-make next time round, A1GP's one-make, GPM's one make, IRL isn't, quite, but it's a closed-shop and the cars are very closely specified...

What are you left with as a series where radically chassis actually compete with each other? Anything beyond FFord?

Why do you think I like sports car racing these days?;)

[toAgoriPou]

Who do you expect to do well in the first weekend ?

[David Beard]

Originally posted by ensign14

I am very excited by the prospect of good drivers in identical cars. Should demonstrate the real talents.

I hold quite the opposite view. I like motor racing, not driver racing. The ultimate extension of the "make the cars the same" argument is to have no cars at all. We will be watching athletics instead.

Imagine the Goodwood Revival of the future after all motor sport has degenerated to one make contests.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by David Beard


I hold quite the opposite view. I like motor racing, not driver racing.

We have that in Formula 1.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Shame, I thought this thread was actually rather interesting within a TNF context.

[Séamas M.]

Originally posted by petefenelon


...

What are you left with as a series where radically chassis actually compete with each other? Anything beyond FFord?

Ah, proper race cars (no downforce!) and proper racing! And having something of a revival in the UK this past year or so. Check out www.ff1600.co.uk

[paulhooft]

Originally posted by David Beard


I hold quite the opposite view. I like motor racing, not driver racing.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree:
Let's take off those bloody wings,
put on normal tyres,
and start racing again!!!

[Alan Lewis]

So, it is the opinion of this Forum that the Coupe Internationale was a daft idea and it's a shame that the Grand Prix de l'ACF wasn't instituted in 1896 rather than 1906?

APL

[Felix]

Does anyone know how Ralph Firman Jnr gets to represent Ireland?

His mother is Irish - he raced as an Irishman in f1. But I do think it is a bit cynical - firstly to get around Eddie Jordan for the F1 seat and now to get a shot in A1GP.

He not the only one - Adam Khan dropped being 'Langley' when he suddenly discovered the need for a Pakistani grand father, and Stephen Simpson - born in the English shires before spending some seven years in South Africa, only to return after winning a Ford title off a couple of has-beens and even more never-beens - has been scrambling around getting an SA passport!

The Lebanese team is bankrolled by an ex-Iraqi living in the UK, and the Indian team is owned by a South African. Dig a bit deeper and you'll find all sorts of anomalies, all of which reflects rather badly on the concept.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Firman starts out as the A1GP test driver, then is one of the drivers who tests and is considered for A1GP UK (testing in F3000 cars). He decides he doesnt want to do A1GP and goes back to racing in Japan. Then he decides he does want to do A1GP if there's a Team Ireland.

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld

Firman starts out as the A1GP test driver, then is one of the drivers who tests and is considered for A1GP UK (testing in F3000 cars). He decides he doesnt want to do A1GP and goes back to racing in Japan. Then he decides he does want to do A1GP if there's a Team Ireland.

Perhaps proving to the media that, after all, he's 'typically' Irish?

Or maybe that he's simply related to Jenson Button...

[SeanValen]

I really don't know what to make of the A1GP idea, but I like the fact the cars are designed well for overtaking, so we'll see some racing. Generally A1GP seems interesting because it's different, and that's why I'll watch it, and it times well with f1 gone in the fall, expecting nothing great, but if it's good, then I'll accept it as snacks until new f1 season comes.

[angst]

I'd agree with the general consensus that the 'nation against nation' aspect of it is something of a sham(I mean, if it really was the World Cup of motorsport shouldn't Michael Schumacher or Nick Heidfeld be driving for Germany, shouldn't Alosnso represent Spain - I know, there's no Spanish team, but the point stands), especially given the anomalies already pointed out.

What I do find interesting is the way the business side has been handled. Maybe Bernie will be looking at this with some interest. Each 'franchise' basically buy shares in the series. Now, what would be great for Bernie is if he could somehow scupper F1 as is, rip up the Concorde Agreement and set up GP1..... hmmm. Seems like a good money-making exercise.

[Corners]

Ungrateful bastards ! How long has it been since we've seen any higher speed racing at Brands on the full track or a series outside the F1 calender ? We get to see more racing and its great, its really hard to knock up a championship and it will need developing so give them a break and let's enjoy it.

[Felix]

Sure the Seat Holders buy the 'franchise', but, given that the fee - incl 2 cars - is a reputed $10m, where does the money come from? Not a single sponsor worth shouting about anywhere. Look at the cars - barer than folk at a nudist colony. Surely that is enough to raise suspicions over funding?

GP2's entry 'franchise' is said to be just $2m for 2 cars...

[D-Type]

Sorry, I can't get fired up over this.

To me, it is organised, scripted Entertainment - not real Racing.

Motor racing is a contest of man and machine.

By going to a one-make series the "machine" element is eliminated and replaced, to an extent, by "team". (echos of US racing and any of the Formula repmobile categories)

Now, let's consider drivers: the first criterion for selection is nationality, the second is sponsorship (as ever nowadays) and the third is ability.

So what do we have? A one-make series with drivers selected on a semi-random basis.

To win produces a "So what" response. In the words of the immortal jenks: "Who did he beat?"

And to lose? You couldn't even beat a bunch of drivers selected on nationality not ability"


On the plus side - If it shakes up the complacency of the "Formula 1" establishment then some good may come of it.

[Felix]

Ungrateful bastards !

Ungrateful about what, exactly? You'll be calling us 'unpatriotic' next...

[Ross Stonefeld]

Yeah the source of the money has me really wondering, especially with how many entries were done at the last minute. I've got a fair idea of what it takes to assemble a one of drive with a team already up and running, nevermind putting an entry together from scratch!

[Twin Window]

I hear that the bloke who everyone has been led to believe is the 'money man' might not be, after all...

[Earthling]

Im rather surprized that Trevor Carlin is the Racing Director for team Lebanon! Anyways, knowing how much little experiance in single seaters the 2 drivers have, they'll need all the help they can get.

Being a half Lebanese by blood, and going there every year, and most of all, knowing 1 of the drivers will really make me want to root for them and paying more attention to this series!

plus its racing during the F1 off season

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by Twin Window
I hear that the bloke who everyone has been led to believe is the 'money man' might not be, after all...

Errr, which means?

[nigel red5]

When the whole A1GP concept was launched i thought it was a good idea, but the more i'm hearing about it from you guys who are studying it closer than i, the more i'm wary of the whole thing.

In my view at least the backing, team manager, drivers, and maybe some of the race engineers should come from the said country. Maybe not so much the run of the mill mechanics....because if they are'nt skilled enough then you could be heading down the road of a bad safety and competence issue, therefore putting the drivers at risk.

But all this stuff i'm reading about money coming and going from different places, and Ross's post which reading between the lines i took to imply that possibly Maktoum has rushed through some teams recently out of his own pocket - then no, i don't like the sounds of this at all.

The world cup of motorsport my arse.

That said, Earthling has a point, at least it'll give us all a laugh in the winter.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by nigel red5

In my view at least the backing, team manager, drivers, and maybe some of the race engineers should come from the said country. Maybe not so much the run of the mill mechanics....because if they are'nt skilled enough then you could be heading down the road of a bad safety and competence issue, therefore putting the drivers at risk.

One of the interesting things is that it is the diametric opposite of the Gordon Bennett races. In the latter the car, equipment &c had to come from one country, but the driver could come from anywhere (viz the Belgian Jenatzy winning the Cup for Germany).

It may change in years to come, if it takes off. You have A3GP coming soon which will give e.g. Chinese mechanics and team managers experience. At the mo' it is unfeasible.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by D-Type

Motor racing is a contest of man and machine.

There have been occasions where the "machine" element has been noticeably absent at top level racing. E.g. Indy in the 50s, Grand Prix racing to Formula Bugatti in the late 20s. Cos logically if someone builds the best car, and offers it for sale, everyone will buy it.

[Felix]

You have A3GP coming soon which will give e.g. Chinese mechanics and team managers experience

Thanks for mentioning A3, Ensign14, been waiting for opening: when last did you (or anybody else, for that matter) hear of a race being organised for A3? Well, I dount you will - my information is that the 25 cars allegedly built are sitting around in Johannesburg without takers, and that VW, who supplied the engines on the basis of fancy business plans are spitting mad.

[ensign14]

ISTR Autosport saying that they were going to start next year, so I am guessing that it'll support the A1GP series and therefore be 12 months away.

[Felix]

Why then have 25 race-ready cars sitting around for over a year? I am told that the promoters have been attempting to sell ready-to-race packages in SA for over 6 months now, without takers.

In any event, what would have been wrong with taking FRenault or FFord or any other similar category, and using that as feeder series? Why go the expense of commissioning bespoke cars for the pourpose of training drivers? For that matter, why go to the hassle of designing and building 60-ish A1GP cars and engines to run them, when a perfectly good GP2 car exists?

Simple: by formulating special designs A1GP is forcing national teams, from some rather cash-strapped country's, mind, to buy franchises from them - explaining the estimated $8m premium per team!

[Paul Rochdale]

At £35 entrance fee for Sunday, there's plenty of things I could be doing instead.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I had a good look at the A3 car once, and Im pretty sure its the Formula Volkswagen from a few years ago (hence the engine) with a bodywork mod to make it look like an A1 car.

http://www.suttonima...ModifiedTimeAsc

http://www.jaapvanla.../voorderace.jpg

[Felix]

Basic design, maybe, but everything is new, incl a new workshop to build them. As I asked above, why go to all that trouble when plenty suitable chassis exist already?

[Pikachu Racing]

Just wait and see for me. Problem there's no TV deal in the US and I wish there was. I'm looking for "alternative" to Formula 1 since I dislike F1 now.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I could never understand if A3 is meant to be a racing school, or a proper racing series. There was that initial, vague announcement, then nothing...

Again though, hell of a job they've done on PR. Hell UK's backup driver was interviewed on BBC Radio 1 last night as "Britain's top driver", the most racing interviews I've heard on Radio 1 before then was the occasional Button soundbite

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Felix

In any event, what would have been wrong with taking FRenault or FFord or any other similar category, and using that as feeder series? Why go the expense of commissioning bespoke cars for the pourpose of training drivers? For that matter, why go to the hassle of designing and building 60-ish A1GP cars and engines to run them, when a perfectly good GP2 car exists?

Simple: by formulating special designs A1GP is forcing national teams, from some rather cash-strapped country's, mind, to buy franchises from them - explaining the estimated $8m premium per team!

There's that - and there's also the fact that they can be entirely independent of the FIA in setting up a series.

No shortage of takers for A1GP, though, regardless of cost.

[Felix]

No body can be independent of the FIA in setting up an international series, not even GPMA with its possible breakaway championship. Any driver holding an FIA-issued international licence may only compete in FIA-sanctioned championships. Thst has been like that since the 50's (at least) and will remain thus for the foresseable future - same as no body can organise an international football series without the sanction of FIFA.

As for no shortage of takers - see above:

Yeah the source of the money has me really wondering, especially with how many entries were done at the last minute. I've got a fair idea of what it takes to assemble a one of drive with a team already up and running, nevermind putting an entry together from scratch!

and

I hear that the bloke who everyone has been led to believe is the 'money man' might not be, after all...

Why don't you Google the movers and shaker and some of the seat holders?