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Please help me with my F5000 McLaren M10A!


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#51 Twin Window

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Posted 14 May 2006 - 21:12

Ian

I'm pretty certain that the orange patch is a 1970/1 creation, rather than a 1960s one. The newer - rather more abstract - kiwi design used on it was introduced around that time (I have a sticker to the same design of the patch).

I also have the same shield-shaped cloth patch as you have there, and a [used] sticker version of the shield pin in your pic which was sent to me by the team.

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#52 Exact10

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Posted 14 May 2006 - 22:37

Thanks for the info Stuart, I see what you mean the orange patch does look a bit more 70"s doesn't it?


#53 Lotus11

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Posted 16 May 2006 - 00:14

I may have photographs of that car racing at Elkhart Lake. Do you have an idea as to the number of the car. Most of the stuff I did was in black and white. I will see if I have any entry sheets for the F5000 races at Elkhart but I must admit my filing system is in about the same shape as that car in your pictures. Well, it is here and there in my office and in a stack somewhere. I will be happy to see what I have once I can establish the car #. Sounds like a wonderful project. Ron Nelson and also at www.prairiestreetart.com for vintage race photographs.

#54 Exact10

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Posted 16 May 2006 - 00:31

Hi Ron,
the car raced as number 98 whilst run by George Eaton, it was raced later by Ludwig Heimrath but I have no idea what number he ran. If you can find any pictures I'd be very glad to see them and buy some copies.
Thanks
Ian

#55 Allen Brown

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Posted 16 May 2006 - 06:51

At Elkhart Lake 18 Jul 1970, Heimrath was entered as #38. At Mosport Park 13 Sep 1970 (a round of the Canadian series) he was entered as #39.

Allen

#56 275 GTB-4

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Posted 16 May 2006 - 10:40

Originally posted by Exact10
I visited Ryan Falconer today at his workshop in Salinas, California, I was there to collect an injection system the same as the one fitted to Eaton's McLaren in 1969.
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I just love the look of "the cat who got the cream" look on Ryans face....why can't we download the knowledge of some of our experts into smart systems for posterity :

Now....Exact10...the resto is moving apace....full marks to you and best of luck with your noble efforts :up: Absolutely fascinatinating stuff :up:

One thing I'm wondering about.....and excuse my ignorance if you have already covered this aspect....who's a gunna drive this magnificent beast when you have finished ????
(no offence, but you.....of all people should know where I'm coming from....respect :) )

#57 eldougo

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Posted 16 May 2006 - 10:52

Originally posted by Exact10
. :wave:
Glad to help and i see it first hand in Oct . I booked the trip last week. :up:



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Final Thanks go to "El Dougo" he gave me his copy of Sports Car World September 1969, he actually listed pics of it earlier in the posting but very kindly sent it to me all the way from Australia so Doug take a bow, Thanks very much!!


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#58 David M. Kane

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Posted 16 May 2006 - 11:11

Thanks for posting the photos of Ryan. I wonder where Bob Slade is going to dyno his motors now?
He used Ryan's dyno to tune and test my DFV some five years ago.

#59 Exact10

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Posted 16 May 2006 - 13:27



pics



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#60 Exact10

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Posted 19 May 2006 - 01:18

Here is the control unit, it's a very nice piece of engineering indeed, I bought it from Henry at Supertec in LA, he's a well known engine builder in the Porsche world, he bought a number of these boxes from Ryan, in order, I think to fit them to 911's.


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The holes in the wheel are to allow for easy adjustments, by simply untightening the bolt and replacing it in another hole, this advances the cam to richen or lean off the mixture.
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#61 Lotus11

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Posted 19 May 2006 - 04:25

Here is a photograph of the car Ian is putting back together. George Eaton going into corner 5 up at Elkhart Lake. I think this is 69 or 70, Interesting. I will post more as time goes on. Ron Nelson Posted Image

#62 Exact10

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Posted 19 May 2006 - 05:00

Absolutely Fantastic Ron! More Please
I've found it so difficult to get real close up pics of the car, this shot is really the first where you can make out the stickers used on the sides

#63 markmanroe

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Posted 20 May 2006 - 00:55

Lotus 11,

Please do post any similar photos if you have them. I like the Lolas, but what a nice picture of the McLaren.

Thanks.

#64 P 4 Staff

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Posted 20 May 2006 - 09:51

Hi.
I have followed your rebuild with great interest.

A bit O.T. though. I´ve noticed you are friends with Howden Ganley.
I visited the Austrian GP in 1972 and shot some pics of Howden in the BRM team.
Hope you don´t mind I put them up here.

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Best: Staffan.

#65 Exact10

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Posted 20 May 2006 - 11:29

Ranting by me!

#66 Allen Brown

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Posted 20 May 2006 - 13:24

OT does traditionally mean Off Topic and I can see that you meant that your pictures were OT but maybe exact10 didn't realise that.

Don't stay away Steffan - I'm sure this was just a simple misunderstanding.

Allen

#67 Exact10

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Posted 20 May 2006 - 13:31

Eaton's car represents a fantastic piece of racing history, Eaton the man is an enigma, obviously he was a damn good driver in the day, the 69 season in both F5000 and Can Am earned him an F1 seat with BRM, sadly he has no interest in seeing the car or talking to me about it, I hope one day that he will but I have to respect his privacy.
I have spent my life as a Ferrari fan, I followed Niki Lauda religiously, my ambition since 14 years old to buy his 312T.
My father worked in Leamington Spa* at AP Lockheed (for 29 years), I spent a lot of time bugging the racing department.
I had not the least interest in McLaren until the opportunity to buy this car, when I did I became totally immersed in the cars and in the story of McLaren the man.
I post on the site all of the things I have found and am learning, the car, firstly finding it, then trying to identify it, the people I've met on the road, those who worked on it in the day especially the ones still around who have stories or, better still, parts. I also want to show all of the pieces that have drawn me into the McLaren world, the badges, the art work, all of the things that allude to McLaren and 69, but most especially to F5000.
You see, in my opinion, F5000 cars are an incredible story in themselves, a formula to challenge F1, it should have made it, all of the right ingredients are there right down to a control engine. It was the drivers skill and the constructors ingenuity, to say nothing of inovators like Ryan Falconer-Isn't this what we all want in F1?
It certainly wasn't a lack of excitement that killed F5000, the cars regularly challenged and beat their F1 counterparts.
So today it makes no sense to me why these cars are so worthless, I paid $22k for my car, what sort of F1 machine would you get for that ?

*Leamington Spa, where the first real Tyrrel was designed and built in a suburban semi!
Home town of David Hobbs, Donald Healey, Automotive Products AP

Best Regards
Ian

#68 Klem

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Posted 20 May 2006 - 14:22

This is a very nice tread, thank you for keeping us upated, with your restoration progres :up:.I hope it's going to look as nice as this one, when it's finished. http://www.atspeedim...ren_m10b_f5000/

#69 Exact10

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Posted 20 May 2006 - 14:40

Thanks Klem,
That's Bruce Leeson's car, a very nice M10B Bruce campaigns regularly.
It's looked after by a shop at Sears Point (sorry Infineon)
Bruce is trying to raise the awareness of F5000 racing in the US and I'll try to get him to post some info on this site, he's actually pushing a class for old F5000 cars.

Here are some pics of Giles Greenfield's M10A, I have mentioned it before, it was the Sir Nicholas Williamson car, now if I hadn't bought my car this is the car I'd buy and without hesitation,.
As you can see Giles drives it, actually Giles wears it, he's a very tall fellow!

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#70 P 4 Staff

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Posted 20 May 2006 - 17:19

Originally posted by Allen Brown
OT does traditionally mean Off Topic and I can see that you meant that your pictures were OT but maybe exact10 didn't realise that.

Don't stay away Steffan - I'm sure this was just a simple misunderstanding.

Allen


Thankyou Allen.

A misunderstanding was exactly what it was. Me and Ian have talked it over and it´s forgotten.

Best Regards: Staffan.

#71 Twin Window

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Posted 23 May 2006 - 08:57

I thought I'd mention that there's a supposed 'original' 1960s McLaren shield sticker on eBay at the moment listed here going for silly money.

I've compared it to the one the team sent me, and the font used is completely different. Actually, that should read fonts, as mine uses two - but this one appears to only use one. Oh, and the car graphic is different to mine too - the wishbones are in the wrong place...

#72 macoran

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Posted 23 May 2006 - 09:49

Googled this one up at a site about McLaren.
Why the difference in colour scheme and text between the patch and the decals ?

http://img82.imagesh...clarenl15cv.gif

#73 Patrick Fletcher

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Posted 23 May 2006 - 10:07

E 10 - is there a spacer .. approx 22mm between the bellhouse and the gearbox on you car ?
If you can find a copy of the Teretonga 25 book have a look at page 87 [top rear link to tub by cockpit]
It may not matter but it is a great photo of GPMcR and Teddy Pilette.

#74 Twin Window

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Posted 23 May 2006 - 10:09

Originally posted by macoran

Googled this one up at a site about McLaren.
Why the difference in colour scheme and text between the patch and the decals ?

http://img82.imagesh...clarenl15cv.gif

I don't know much about the patch (I have one the same, but I didn't get it from the team), however the linked illustration depicts the exact design on the sticker I have and clearly shows how wrong the eBay item is.

#75 Exact10

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Posted 23 May 2006 - 12:33

Hi Patrick,
there isn't a spacer on my car but I may have a clue why they did that.
The M10B had, I believe, a longer wheelbase than the A, this was done by using a longer bellhousing and the appropriate shafts in the gearbox itself. Maybe the car your reffering to, I haven't seen the book or pic, could have been an A that they lengthened with a spacer.
I have two different bellhousings, both original parts.
I had a converstaion with Chuck Haynes regarding this and it was he who originally told me about the length difference, he has the correct parts for sale to lengthen an early car.
I'll post some pics of the bellhousing seperate from the motor.

#76 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 24 May 2006 - 06:11

Here you go...photo of McRae and Pilette McLarens from Teretonga 25...

http://img98.imagesh...photo2974ez.jpg

Vince Howlett, Victoria, B.C., Canada

#77 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 24 May 2006 - 06:15

Oops...let's try that again...(no, they hadn't both crashed!)

http://img128.images...photo2978sp.jpg

Vince H.

#78 Exact10

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Posted 26 May 2006 - 00:18

Thanks for posting the pics Vince, can't make out enough detail to see the spacer on the gearbox though!

#79 Milan Fistonic

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Posted 26 May 2006 - 03:07

This is getting way OT but as the subject of McLaren badges has come up...




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#80 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 30 May 2006 - 19:51

Pictures of Dave Isselhard's McLaren, s/n 300-09, at the Mission, B.C., Canada Historic races are at:

http://public.fotki....n_formula_5000/

Pictures taken by my friend Phil Dauphinee. Rained on and off all weekend, and Dave understandably didn't run till the last race of the weekend when it was pretty dry...only to have someone drop oil around much of the track...he ended up in a barrier and bent the left front suspension!

Vince H.

#81 Exact10

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Posted 07 June 2006 - 22:19

Thanks for the links to the pictures, that's a very nice car, it has a stunning tub by Bahner and used to belong to Wes McNay. I looked at the car when it was at Fantasy Junction in Emmeryville, I'd be very interested in buying the old high wing if your friend is interested in selling it, I saw it in the spares cache just before it went to Oregon.
Best Regards
Ian

#82 David M. Kane

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Posted 07 June 2006 - 22:41

I saw Wes drive that car many times, he would really get after it!

#83 Exact10

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Posted 07 June 2006 - 22:51

Well the story continues...
In the last couple of weeks I've made three trips to Infineon to see Tony at Robin Automotive. I delivered firstly my spare uprights, brake calipers and hats, steering racks and suspension arms and then returned with various gearbox parts I was unable to identify. Tony Nicholson is the owner of Robin and has been working on McLaren's finest since 1994, prepping in his first year an M6A and an M19 F1 car, never looking back he has restored several important cars and has built a thriving business based up at the circuirt now known as Infineon, he'll be restoring the pieces for me back to race condition.
The shop is on the lower end of the business park and walking inside you are greeted by some stunning cars both Can Am and F1. When I arrived there was an F1 Shadow sitting on a stand in the far corner flanked by a lovely Lotus 22, it's amazing how small this car is in comparison to the big V8 Can Am monsters. I had first to pass several Can Ams from the pretty little M6 by the door all the way through to the later giants of the era all lined up in smart formation.
The shop is obviously a very well sorted and set up operation, the work areas are clean and bright, the benches ordered with the stacked parts from each of the cars arranged neatly in front, leading into the back there is a machine room with a lathe where at the time they were making a special run of wheel nuts for magnesium minilights.
Tony has been busy in the manufacture of lots of new-replacement parts for these old McLaren chargers (being a Kiwi I think he has a special affinity) including cast magnesium M10 wheels, the originals now so prone to cracking, axles and suspension components such as ball joints are now on the easy-to-supply list. I took along my axles and uprights and unlike so many who've told me"Chuck em away, buy new" Tony had them crack checked and saved me the thick end of 3k on two axles alone. Nearly all of the parts he identified instantly, but a couple, especially a steering rack, some 3" shorter than my M10 one we are still in the dark on.
Here are some pics of Robin Automotive, the Shadow was the DN3/5a Tom Pryce car and reflects the great style that's characteristic of Don Nichols with lovely detail right down to the drivers name engraved on the wheel.
I have lots of spare parts and anyone needing anything M10 or the Can Am equivalent part drop me a line and I'll see if I have it.

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Tony with The Shadow Wheel

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#84 Exact10

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Posted 09 August 2006 - 01:22

Here are some pictures sent to me by Ryan Falconer, he's still trying to help!

These are Laguna Seca 1969, Ryan is in the green shirt leaning over the motor, The little boy in the background is Ryans son Eric with his mom.
Eric is at least 6' now!
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This shot clearly shows the injection system, note the stacks, they differ in some of the pictures.
Alternating them changes the torque band

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You can clearly see the revetment here cut into the rear bulkhead in order for the drive belts to reach the injection pump. As I noted earlier these were done at Carroll Shelby's works in Torrance.
Look how high up that oil cooler is mounted

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Ralph Frisken, told me the reason narrow wheels were fitted to the back of the M10 was due to the dimensions of the trailer, it was ordered based on the width of an M6 Can Am McLaren, the car delivered turned out to be far wider!

#85 Magee

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 00:08

Hi Ian,

Here's a view of the McLaren that Vince mentioned. It's sitting in pre-grid ready to go. It's a beauty!

http://www.westerndr...ult.aspx?ID=177

#86 Duncan Fox

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 09:51

Ian, Ive sent some upper panel templates to Tony for you,I will email you regarding some more parts you may want.
That Mclaren yellow paint that was on your car has been on my mind ever since reading one of your early posts, and I think I've now got it worked out.
At the Trust there were some B&W photos taken at Trojans Purley Works. One sequence Ive dated around the 3rd week in Mar 69, and another probably early Mar.
In the early shots there are 3 M10 A tubs to be seen. A dark coloured one to the left of Harry Pearces office, a light one, yellow I would say to the right and a nearly complete one in the jig in the foreground. Counting M10A-1 as the first in the series ( this was the usual thing at this point in time) we now have the first 4 cars. The light coloured car is the only one with anybody working on it ,and has wiring, gages, steering , roll hoop, and the front suspension is going on .As the most complete this was probably to be Trojans Show car, Possibly for the downunder tour. This duty was subsequently carried out by McReas car 300-06 The dark car is a bare painted tub looks as if it might possibly be red

Bruce McLaren states in a letter dated 14/4/69 “ that the production cars have been badly behind schedule. But that with luck there will be 3 cars at the 1st US race of the season. One of them was a special favour for GoodYears and we fitted the engine and finished the car off last week, it was a fuel injection /dry sump one and the only way to get it done in time was to pitch in myself, rather spoilt my weekend , but surprised the hell out of some of our new staff! First time I had worked in the workshop since building the one for the show.”

As yours had its engine fitted in the US it cannot have been the car finished at McLarens works. As Lothar Motschenbacher had GoodYear sponsorship, and we know he travelled to England to help finish his car I think it was his .I am going to ask some ex team guys If they remember this car. I don’t know what colour Jerry Hansons was but Id put money on the yellow one going across to Eaton in view of the delays, as that was the most complete suggesting yours may be 300- 02? . See if you can find out whether Eatons crew repainted the car, or did it have a quick repaint at Trojan? I only see these 3 cars in the first race , but Allen suggests a 4th was entered by Barker

There is not a trace of a production M10 being assembled in the works photos late Mar other than M10A-1 over by the roller door.( it would have been there for last minute detail drawings etc.) It had its injected engine fitted so it can only have been there at Trojans for no more than a week There would have been Im sure another tub on the jig , but I cannot see that. The staff are working on the Prophet M6 GT an the 1st batch of M12 chassis. The John Woolf M6 has a prototype M12 rear body section sitting on it. They were behind schedule with these cars also.

#87 Allen Brown

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 12:35

Duncan

Good analysis. I'll try to help with a few snippets.

Jerry Hansen's cars were usually orange but I can't be sure about the M10A. This link shows his Lola T140 from the previous season which looks like it may be Lola's standard "Golden Yellow".

An article in Autoweek 10 May 1969 dated 18 April (Autoweek's normal production lag) says that Motschenbacher, Hansen and Barker will drive M10As so Barker's was definitely an early order but may not have been built until later. The article says that "Motschenbacher's and Hansen's cars arrived in the United States last week". Eaton's isn't mentioned.

It's distinctly possible that the pale car in the pictures is Hansen's.

Motschenbacher had 300-05 as we know where it was in 1970 but we also know he had more than one car (he advertised two on 1 Nov 1969) so it's possible he had 300-05 as well as an even earlier number.

It would really help if we knew the number of the first production car. Maybe 300-01 but maybe 300-02 to leave room for the prototype. Maybe even 300-03 to leave two spaces for planned works cars as we see in other Trojan production runs. There aren't that many early cars (before Motschenbacher's 300-05 and McCaig's 300-07), just Eaton's, Hansen's, maybe Barker's and possibly John Ward's.

Allen

#88 Allen Brown

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Posted 11 August 2006 - 13:15

I forgot that I have the 1969 Seattle entry list which mentions colours. Hansen's was orange, Motschenbacher's red, Eaton's red and Ward's blue.

#89 Duncan Fox

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Posted 12 August 2006 - 06:33

Ian ,in post 27 you stated that Eaton had painted the car Red . Do you know this for sure? Can you ask Ralph Fisken? also how much time did they have to prep the car before Round 1?.

Since my last post closer scrutiny of the big late Feb early Mar photo found 3 Painted noses ,1x dark hue and 2 light colour ones , one darker than the other.It would appear there is a tub not visable in the shot. So now we have 4 cars plus10A-1 which now puts Lothars 300-05 in the picture, presumably the one on the jig. It had to be there, in order for it to be completed by McLarens for shipping around April 10th at the latest. We know that was to be Red so now there are two dark cars one Orange and one McLorange. the painted tub is next to the Red rear body panel of the 6GT and it is a lighter colour, it could possibly be Blue. The missing tub is the McLorange one. Hansens would be the Orange one , Barkers car could be the dark painted tub ,and Eatons could be the Trojan car in the paint shop being redone in Red. ( remember it is missing from the photo)

In order of Build and state of completion assuming Trojans car was the 1st prototype we could now have :Trojan/Eaton 02 Hansen 03 Barker 04 Lothar 05 Allen what do you think??? Do we know what colour Wards car was?

#90 David McKinney

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Posted 12 August 2006 - 11:30

Wasn't 04 the car Keith Holland raced in 1969 (in Europe)?

#91 Allen Brown

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Posted 12 August 2006 - 19:11

Not an M10A David. Holland drove a Lola T142 in 1969 and in 1970. At the end of 1970 he bought Sid Taylor's M10B 400-06 and promptly dropped it in the lake at Mallory. Two cars emerged from that...

Allen

#92 Allen Brown

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Posted 12 August 2006 - 19:14

Duncan

It was Ward's car that was blue, not Barker's. I don't have a colour for Barker's.

Allen

#93 Exact10

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Posted 12 August 2006 - 19:23

Hi Duncan,
can you post that picture you are talking about, I'd really like to see it and I'm sure everyone else here would as well.
As to the info I posted in 27, I don't have any knowledge as to whether the car was painted in England or in Canada when it arrived, I'll call Ralph Frisken and see if he knows the answer.
What is obvious is that there was orange paint on the car at some stage, its safely hidden under the rear bulkhead and it's safe to assume that Ludwig Heimrath, who bought the car from Eaton racing didn't paint it that color. The history I have takes me from 76 to date, so it's 6 years in the wilderness. The first year obviously in Eaton's tenure, that's 69-70, then to Heimrath, probably another year70-71, so it's 71 to 76.
I have a photocopy of the receipt from a company called Cal Formula who sold it to Jim in 76.

#94 David McKinney

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Posted 12 August 2006 - 19:53

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Not an M10A David. Holland drove a Lola T142 in 1969 and in 1970. At the end of 1970 he bought Sid Taylor's M10B 400-06 and promptly dropped it in the lake at Mallory. Two cars emerged from that...
Allen

I think I see what's happened. I have Ean Pugh owning an M10B (400-04) and an M10A (300-04) at about the same time. The M10B is the ex-Prophet car, and the M10A was said to have been ex-Holland. Maybe there was only one Pugh 04 all along

#95 Allen Brown

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Posted 12 August 2006 - 20:05

Pugh's car is a major puzzle and the biggest single reason I haven't yet published my M10A page. I haven't had a chance to talk to Ean about it yet but I have heard from more than one source that his "ex-Prophet M10B" is actually a M10A.

David, what's the earliest note you have of him owning a M10 of any sort?

Allen

#96 Duncan Fox

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Posted 12 August 2006 - 21:33

Allen ,part of my10B project was comparing cars tubs in period with present day . 400-04 there are 2 cars claiming this : Ean Pugh's car at first glance looks to be an early M10B, certainly the tub is a correct A tub , but when I look closer I see its nose cone although a correct B one is not fitted as such. It lacks the pip pins to the rear of the front anti roll bar. It very well could be an A upgraded to B specs, but then not many teams changed the trans as well. Bruce Leeson's 10B has a late tub so we know its been retubbed somewhere along the ways. So I currently show 400-04 as 2 cars , but I have a suspicion that Ean's car is not what it appears to be.

Similarly on your B page ,Roy Lanes car ;that is an early tub, and as we know who had all the early cars that is either an A ,as it has an L.G. Hewland or its a built up car .

#97 Jerry Entin

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Posted 12 August 2006 - 21:50

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Great picture of the Trojan works. This photo was sent to the site by Duncan Fox

#98 Exact10

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Posted 12 August 2006 - 21:54

Fabulous Picture Duncan and thanks Jerry for posting it.
Which one did you think was the Eaton car?

#99 David McKinney

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Posted 12 August 2006 - 21:57

Originally posted by Allen Brown
David, what's the earliest note you have of him owning a M10 of any sort?

I have him with the purported M10A in 1989, unraced 1990, then raced again 1991 and 1992. Previous owner said to have been Roger Ealand.
The alleged M10B first appears in Pugh hands in 1991, having been raced by Rick Hall in 1989 and 1990

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#100 Duncan Fox

Duncan Fox
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Posted 12 August 2006 - 22:31

Dave
Rick Hall appears to be the common denominator here, Bruce Leesons Prophet M10B (late tub) leaves him in 1988 with fresh FIA paperwork, and another appears in 89-90 (early tub, the Pugh car)

Roger Ealand rings a bell, but I cant place him with an M10A.

Ian, I dont believe the Eaton car is in the picture, the nose is on the wall wrapped in plastic to the left of the office .

On a T.N.F subject. Can someone please explain to me how to insert a Quote into a reply??