92 replies to this topic

[polaris]

Moving on from the painful JV arguments is a much much more interesting discussion: A new team in the sport and a whole new pent up following of a marque with a remarkable history in motorsport.

Im laying my cards on the table and admitting that i am a one eyed totally biased bmw nut and have been for some 25 years. Without laying any blame I have been absolutely frustrated with the association with Williams and have been begging BMW to go it on their own from day one so I am understandably extremely overjoyed that it is finally happening!

The whole thing has been somewhat subdued since the announcement but if i realise that they will be humiliated for a time while they find their legs (like toyota was) i can understand why.

I know they have been back in F1 with the engines but they have never had a complete team which makes this for me the biggest thing in F1 in the last few years

To me the fact is bigger than any of the players eg JV or Mario for that matter and it at last gives me personally a team I can root for.

Anyway if nothing else this will generate a new layer in the the discussions on this board!

[lustigson]

I think BMW could be in the top-four or five quicker than Toyota. Their team is better compared to Renault: they too bought an existing, (at the time) mid-field team and took two learning years, 2001 and 2002. In 2003 they already reaped rewards and in 2005 they delivered the WDC. The same thing could happen for BMW: learning years in 2006 and 2007, WDC and/or WCC in 2009.

[Clatter]

I see another Jaguar happening.

[tripleM]

Mario will let his ego get in the way & the BMW board will see him for the fraud that he truly is.

[fifi]

Originally posted by Clatter
I see another Jaguar happening.

this is my fear..............

[polaris]

Originally posted by Clatter
I see another Jaguar happening.

of course failure is always a worry and it will be amplified by the knockers from within but BMW have already been there for a while with the engines and frankly the way they were going with williams it was either quit or move forward.

BMW works teams were never easy in any category but hell did they make it work when the commitment came so I am hopeful.

[ensign14]

Wonder what they'll come up with engine-wise, they've done **** all with them over the past year, presumably because they always knew they wanted to enter on their own behalf.

[D. Heimgartner]

BMW are driven by a bunch of yuppies!

[taran]

There is a major difference between Jaguar and Renault.

Renault did its F1 program in-house. Their first sojourn was with a works team, then with chassis partners and their second attempt was again with their own team, albeit the former Benetton stable.

Jaguar lacks that same in-house racing pedigree. Their recent successes (since the early 80’s) came courtesy of TWR. Although built upon the Stewart team, Jaguar F1 never seemed comfortable and/or settled as a racing team. Compare that with Renault, even during their dreadful 2001 season.

BMW is very similar to Jaguar in that it doesn’t compete with a works team in their usual racing programs but uses outside partners who are given (semi) factory status. Think Schnitzer, Hartge, Linder etc. Their Le Mans program was also a cooperative effort with Williams.

It remains therefore to be seen if BMW has the right institutional mindset and organization for a full blown factory operation or not.

My take is that if they use Team Sauber as a base on which to build, they can do well from the start. If they try to do it “the BMW way” they will have all sorts of problems because there isn’t a “BMW way” yet.

[Ali_G]

IMO, a few years ago, all car companies should have been banned from entering F1 through buying out an existing private team.

This would have done a few things. For a start, more teams on the grid. More teams could have been left in, say to a max of 26 or 28. 26 was always the old standard and 28 isn't untenable.

At the same time, private teams would be protected and if major car companies were to pull out we would still have had enough privateer teams to easily keep F1 going.

Manufacturers pulling out of F1 now can have serious consecquences compared to the days when only Ferrari had a works effort.

[HP]

Originally posted by Ali_G
IMO, a few years ago, all car companies should have been banned from entering F1 through buying out an existing private team.

This would have done a few things. For a start, more teams on the grid. More teams could have been left in, say to a max of 26 or 28. 26 was always the old standard and 28 isn't untenable.

At the same time, private teams would be protected and if major car companies were to pull out we would still have had enough privateer teams to easily keep F1 going.

Manufacturers pulling out of F1 now can have serious consecquences compared to the days when only Ferrari had a works effort.

Max Mosley did voice those concerns, and I think is also why GPWC is a bad idea after all.

But I don't think BMW will do a Jaguar. BMW is larger than Jaguar and has no 'mother' company to worry about.

[Ali_G]

Still though. More private teams give F1 way more downside protection.

And the ways things have gone, I can't see anymore private teams entering F1 for years, especially if they still have that bond to lodge with the FIA.

[GregAU]

Originally posted by fifi


this is my fear..............

this is my hope...

Sorry Mario but you suck.

[HP]

Originally posted by Ali_G
Still though. More private teams give F1 way more downside protection.

And the ways things have gone, I can't see anymore private teams entering F1 for years, especially if they still have that bond to lodge with the FIA.

I've read that FOM/FIA want to scrap that bond. I just fear there is some protectionsim going on. In any case, I wonder what the manufacturor series want on this point.

Usually, manufacturors bring in the big cash, private teams the passion. Give me more private teams anyday.

Also what happens with Petronas? Still sponsoring the new outfit?

[Zoe]

Originally posted by HP
Usually, manufacturors bring in the big cash, private teams the passion.

Andrea Moda had a lot of passion

Basically you are right, but you need more preprties than being a privateer alone.

Zoe

[Timstr11]

Originally posted by lustigson
I think BMW could be in the top-four or five quicker than Toyota. Their team is better compared to Renault: they too bought an existing, (at the time) mid-field team and took two learning years, 2001 and 2002. In 2003 they already reaped rewards and in 2005 they delivered the WDC. The same thing could happen for BMW: learning years in 2006 and 2007, WDC and/or WCC in 2009.

You are overestimating Sauber/BMW.
From 2008 and onwards, the championship might be wide open. But IMO for 2006 and 2007 there are 5 teams that potentially have a shot at the WC:
Toyota, BAR Honda, Ferrari, Renault, MacLaren (random order).

I don't see BMW being a contender.

[xype]

Sauber was doing well in 2004 and 2005 they basically sucked because of a smaller budget.

I dn't get where all the hate for Theissen is coming from. Because he cut his ties with Williams?

Anyway, BMW is not simply throwing money at the problem like Toyota does, and they're not underfunding the project either, like Jaguar did. They are not promising a 1st-race 1st-win, like BAR did, and said they are in for the long run. If Theissen really promised BMW a title by 2007 then he might have been a bit optimistic. But then again, he knows what's going on at BMW and Sauber and we don't.

Theissen said they will have to go from 8th place in the CC and maybe challenge Williams. I'd say they can finish 5th or 6th.

Oh, and whoever said people are overestimating BMW - Toyota and BAR are promising wins for how long now? They aren't setting the world on fire and while BMW wont at first, either, expecting anything more than an odd podium from Toyota or BAR is just speculation.

[joriswouters]

I've read somewhere that although Mario convinced the BMW-board of the commercial benefits of a F1 worksteam for BMW, the BMW employees aren't too sure of any success. They claim BMW are in it over their head. The engine program was tenable according to those insiders, but an entire F1program, albeit with the bought assets of Sauber, is too big even for BMW.

If even the 'company' can't support it entirely, I see it fail in a couple of years.


Sauber wasn't able anymore to be on top of F1 with his limited budget, but I would have liked it better when BMW started up a program on its own instead of buying Sauber. With the buys of Sauber and Minardi, F1 is two privateers down. For me it's now no more a championship of privateers, except for Williams. All the rest is constructor (or company) owned.

[ViMaMo]

No doubt Sauber engineers stay. With the extra money, they could possibly do with better research and developement , gain a few tenths.

But BMW does not have F1 expertise, whatever talent is available is from the current pool... they have to poach designers, engineers, aero people. But isn't that workforce limited? Everyone is a well funded works team, not short of cash. Meanwhile costs are definitely going to escalate.

Its going to be very tough for BMW. Renault, Toyota, Honda know it so well. Minimum 4-5 years to build cars that could compete for wins.

And even though Renault have built a championship winning car this season, it ultimately shows that McLaren the veteran of building F1 cars, has the ultimate pace and could win the WCC easily.

[WACKO]

It is very early days to predict on the new BMW team. It will depend totally on how BMW and Sauber gel together, how much effort BMW puts in and how they approach it. They have been impressive on the engine side before, Sauber has state-of-the-art equipment, but you have to make it work. It may take some time for all pieces to fall in place.

[xype]

I think Theissen said the response to their position openings was overwhelming. Also BMW had a few years to look at how Williams operates and learn from that. Now they've seeing how Sauber operates and next year, they'll likely get the best of both worlds.

[kodandaram]

I think the first thing to hit them is that its not going to be easy to get BOTH the engine and the chassis right straight away . BMW have hankered a lot about Williams chassis' being bad for many years - and it has been justified . BUt I don't think BMW will do any better than Sauber have managed thus far ..in 2006 that is.

I think next year is a write off in terms of results. ..unless they do bring in a really sweet car and engien package. Its all about 2007 and beyond. And if Mario said to the board that he can win the title i n2007 ...good luck to him.

I am also wondering how he thinks that the team will be budgeted fully via sponsorship. :


But BMW have not just thrown a wad of cash - they are doing it slowly and steadily ..trying to keep it efficient like Herr Sauber . It might work . But don't expect podiums next year ...unless they bring out a really good car - luckily.

[Sakae]

Originally posted by HP
Max Mosley did voice those concerns, and I think is also why GPWC is a bad idea after all.

But I don't think BMW will do a Jaguar. BMW is larger than Jaguar and has no 'mother' company to worry about.

Perceptive, and accurate. I am darn sure that a Chairman of the Board will be able at least to remember names of his drivers, once that is established.

[armchair expert]

The BMWs will be the ugliest cars on the grid with the best engines and handling. But the drivers will be confused by the toggle switch that, in addition to running the engine management system and suspension, also operates the sun-roof, air-conditioning, dvd player and gps system. Going no where.

[kayemod]

Well, I don't expect BMW to set the F1 world alight in their first few years, but at the same time, I think we're all tending to underestimate their learning capabilities. I'll ignore the rest of that fiasco, but much of the reason they bought Rover in the 90s was to obtain Land Rover 4 x 4 technology. They took what they needed, learned a lot, and eventually sold Land Rover on to Ford for a good price. Now look at all the X5s and X3s on the roads all over the world. Buying Sauber as a way of stepping up their F1 involvement, was a much more intelligent option than continuing as what the media were always going to see as being the junior partner in the Williams BMW downhill slide. In fact, much of that slide was caused by BMWs steady withdrawal of technology and resources, just look at their starting & traction control problens and the full stop on engine development. Probably all a part of some fiendish long-term plan, as they set their sights on the Sauber deal, which was a far better and safer option for them than trying to go it alone. I haven't been a BMW fan since their E30/M3 and the Brabham/Piquet days, and although I've nothing more to go on than media reports, I'm pretty unimpressed with Thiessen, but I think that they'll do a lot better than most people seem to expect, and I don't think it wil take them 5 to 6 years to be challenging the leaders on a regular basis.

As an aside, wouldn't it be fascinating to know more about the financial side of BMW leaving Williams early? They must have had to pay SFW massive compensation for that, they probably paid him a lot more to get Heidfeld, and whoever is funding Cosworth engines in 2006, I strongly suspect it isn't going to be Sir Frank.

[kayemod]

Originally posted by armchair expert
The BMWs will be the ugliest cars on the grid with the best engines and handling. But the drivers will be confused by the toggle switch that, in addition to running the engine management system and suspension, also operates the sun-roof, air-conditioning, dvd player and gps system. Going no where.

Biggest mistake they could make would be to fit thair F1 cars with that I-Drive system, anyone here ever managed to understand it?

[taran]

Originally posted by kayemod
As an aside, wouldn't it be fascinating to know more about the financial side of BMW leaving Williams early? They must have had to pay SFW massive compensation for that, they probably paid him a lot more to get Heidfeld, and whoever is funding Cosworth engines in 2006, I strongly suspect it isn't going to be Sir Frank.

Hi there Kayemod
Welcome to this BB.

If you are a member of Atlas, you can check out the archive. There are articles about the last negotiatons between Williams and BMW to extend their partnership beyond 2004. The first deal was for 5 years (2000-2004). During those negotiations, BMW was already very disappointed by Williams' apparent inability to produce a top notch chassis to accompany their 'super' engines.

The new contract was for another 5 year deal (2005-2009) but included strict performance targets which Williams-BMW had to meet or the contract could be cancelled without penalty for BMW. According to the well-informed German media, Williams-BMW failed to meet those targets in 2005 and BMW walked. They did not have to pay Williams a cent.

[Cosmograph]

Originally posted by tripleM
Mario will let his ego get in the way & the BMW board will see him for the fraud that he truly is.

This is my biggest fear. F1 is very competitive. Think what you will of BMW's road cars but the glamour of the margue is no guarantee that they won't continue to inhabit the midfield for years to come.

Mario's culture of blaming his partners does not serve as a good omen. That and BMW's inability to build a top flight engine over the past couple of years.

[Sakae]

Wasn't it actually Head who blamed publicly (at least to some extend) BMW for their situation, rather than the other way around? I also think that love for the team let some fans to slip into fingerpointing outside of their own nest, which could be fun and satisfying for a while, but surely as hell it's not going to be helfull to find root causes for your own problems.

[tojack]

For me it will be interesting to see how BMW fairs against Red Bull Light.

[kayemod]

Originally posted by taran


Hi there Kayemod

The new contract was for another 5 year deal (2005-2009) but included strict performance targets which Williams-BMW had to meet or the contract could be cancelled without penalty for BMW. According to the well-informed German media, Williams-BMW failed to meet those targets in 2005 and BMW walked. They did not have to pay Williams a cent.

Hello Taran, don't live anywhere near Munich do you?

Williams do appear to be far from blameless in the Williams BMW underachievement saga, but it's undeniable that the BMW engines are lagging behind the opposition now, have made no progress over the last year or so, and their startline/traction control software is a joke. I suspect that BMW decided some time ago that they wanted to go it alone, and it clearly suited them to be able to blame everything on Williams, so I don't believe that their lack of progress on the engine and software fronts was entirely accidental. "Strict performance targets" are also a joke in the world of F1where you can never have much more than aspirations, and I don't believe for a moment that as sharp a cookie as SFW would ever have agreed to anything like that. You have to remember that both Williams and BMW wanted the whole thing to work in the beginning, and It would be a very strange and unusual contract that would allow an underperforming party to walk away early and actually profit from failing in their side of the deal.

I've seen everything that has appeared on AA for the past few years, but only translations of German Media reports. Much of it is no more than speculation or stuff planted by one or other interested party, so I don't believe that it can all be taken too seriously. Like I said earlier, I doubt if we'll ever really know who paid what to whom, but from what I know of SFW and his business sense, I'm pretty certain that he won't have come out of the affair too badly, and may even have profited at the end of the day.

[xype]

Originally posted by kayemod
Like I said earlier, I doubt if we'll ever really know who paid what to whom, but from what I know of SFW and his business sense, I'm pretty certain that he won't have come out of the affair too badly, and may even have profited at the end of the day.

I think I read someplace that Bernie himself is paying for the Williams Cosworth's partly - but that would be a bit of a stretch, really.

[kodandaram]

Bernie paying for Franks engine ?

Bernie wouldn pay for his own clothing if he had it his way ..hell ..he wouldn pay for anything .

But I get the point , Xype ...and I am quite sure that Williams will have made sufficient funds available for a decent development programme . The way I understood the interview with Patrick was that there is only one planned major upgrade for the Cossie in 2006 as per the contract but they are still working on it.

[Victor]

Whats all the fuss about? Has BMW any tradition in this sport? All I can remeber are their recent victories in Le Mans, which is far from being a very competitive race...

[kayemod]

Originally posted by Victor
Whats all the fuss about? Has BMW any tradition in this sport? All I can remeber are their recent victories in Le Mans, which is far from being a very competitive race...

It's going back a few years, but BMW were quite something in the Nelson Piquet days with Brabham winning world championships, and to be fair about the Williams/BMW affair, they had their moments there as well once they got going.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Victor
Whats all the fuss about? Has BMW any tradition in this sport? All I can remeber are their recent victories in Le Mans, which is far from being a very competitive race...

At least to the 30s, when Austin 7 based specials raced in sportscars. Look at the post-war German Grands Prix and see which manufacturer's engine powered most of the home specials.

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by Victor
Whats all the fuss about? Has BMW any tradition in this sport? All I can remeber are their recent victories in Le Mans, which is far from being a very competitive race...

My, my, what ignorance

Have a look a this http://etcc-history.it4us.nl/
;)

[polaris]

Originally posted by vivian
No doubt Sauber engineers stay. With the extra money, they could possibly do with better research and developement , gain a few tenths.

But BMW does not have F1 expertise, whatever talent is available is from the current pool... they have to poach designers, engineers, aero people. But isn't that workforce limited? Everyone is a well funded works team, not short of cash. Meanwhile costs are definitely going to escalate.

Its going to be very tough for BMW. Renault, Toyota, Honda know it so well. Minimum 4-5 years to build cars that could compete for wins.

And even though Renault have built a championship winning car this season, it ultimately shows that McLaren the veteran of building F1 cars, has the ultimate pace and could win the WCC easily.

im not taking anything away from renault but they hve been lucky that macs have handed it them from the beginning of the season and more so that ferarri have dropped right off from where they should be if they had progressed from last year

[polaris]

Originally posted by kodandaram
I think the first thing to hit them is that its not going to be easy to get BOTH the engine and the chassis right straight away . BMW have hankered a lot about Williams chassis' being bad for many years - and it has been justified . BUt I don't think BMW will do any better than Sauber have managed thus far ..in 2006 that is.

I think next year is a write off in terms of results. ..unless they do bring in a really sweet car and engien package. Its all about 2007 and beyond. And if Mario said to the board that he can win the title i n2007 ...good luck to him.

I am also wondering how he thinks that the team will be budgeted fully via sponsorship. :


But BMW have not just thrown a wad of cash - they are doing it slowly and steadily ..trying to keep it efficient like Herr Sauber . It might work . But don't expect podiums next year ...unless they bring out a really good car - luckily.

[kayemod]

Originally posted by kayemod
I haven't been a BMW fan since their E30/M3 and the Brabham/Piquet days.

Thanks for that lovely photo-reminder schleivlak, the BMW E30/M3 is one of the great cars of all time. I have to admit that I don't take a great deal of interest in forms of racing outside F1, but there is another world out there, and the original M3 and the 635s are all-time classics.

[polaris]

Originally posted by kodandaram
I think the first thing to hit them is that its not going to be easy to get BOTH the engine and the chassis right straight away . BMW have hankered a lot about Williams chassis' being bad for many years - and it has been justified . BUt I don't think BMW will do any better than Sauber have managed thus far ..in 2006 that is.

I think next year is a write off in terms of results. ..unless they do bring in a really sweet car and engien package. Its all about 2007 and beyond. And if Mario said to the board that he can win the title i n2007 ...good luck to him.

I am also wondering how he thinks that the team will be budgeted fully via sponsorship. :


But BMW have not just thrown a wad of cash - they are doing it slowly and steadily ..trying to keep it efficient like Herr Sauber . It might work . But don't expect podiums next year ...unless they bring out a really good car - luckily.

agree but ill add that all the teams are on a new engine format next year so the playing field will be a little level for a while. Maybe they got the timing right as everyone will be in something of a development role

[polaris]

Lets not forget that apart from the brabham days, le mans, pre war, the e30 m3's in the 80's and recent touring cars, and motorcycles, BMW comprehensively dominated touring cars throughout the seventies with the 3.0 csl in the hands of privateers and their own works team. The straight six engine was producing some 750 BHP which is not that far away from recent f1 v10's.

the first few years in their return to F1 were very successful as far as engine supply was concerned producing the most powerful engine and the highst reving engine to that time. The last couple of years have been puzzling i admit.

the key though is an engine and chasis that work together and that where things have gone wrong lately

[Lada Lover]

Why oh why did BMW stop racing in the ALMS? That car was awesome.

[Cosmograph]

Polaris, you can also make the same case (more so in fact) for Porsche given their enormous success in many different formula. That guarantees nothing in F1, however, and you just can't claim that 70's saloon car success is in any way indicative of success if F1 during this era.

[Melbourne Park]

Originally posted by Cosmograph
Polaris, you can also make the same case (more so in fact) for Porsche given their enormous success in many different formula. That guarantees nothing in F1, however, and you just can't claim that 70's saloon car success is in any way indicative of success if F1 during this era.

I always had the impression that the saloon car program based upon a heavier expenditure than BMW's competition. F1 is very different from that. Also its a much bigger program, about 1,000 people involved if you add them all up.

I am not sure though that outright victory can be a business goal. They have to plan for not winning, surely. How can winning be mandatory when so many large expenditure organisations are competing? Arithmatic and history both point to sustained victories as being impossable. OK Ferrari point to it being possable, but Ferrari's methods shifted the whole learning curve upwards. Now that other teams have learn't how they did things, everyone is back on an almost similar learning curve.

[kayemod]

Originally posted by polaris
BMW comprehensively dominated touring cars throughout the seventies with the 3.0 csl in the hands of privateers and their own works team. The straight six engine was producing some 750 BHP which is not that far away from recent f1 v10's.

I've always been primarily an F1 follower, so you probably know more about this than I do, but are you sure about that BHP figure? From a normally aspirated 3.5 litre straight six? The racing Evo3 M3s only got 300+ from 2.5 litres.

[De Weberis]

BMW is forgeting their own history.

In 1983, Brabham-BMW had a triad that IMO is the project that defines the mandatory elements nevessary for WDC/WCC.
It is a driver (Nelson Piquet), and engine (BMW-Paul Rosche) and a chassis (Brabham-Gordon Murray).

First of all I think they've made their part in 2003, only.
Before that it was only good for top end power.

What about the other elements.
If Theissen can't find the other vertices until the 2007 gate, the decision is kill the process as early as possible.

Let's see if he has the balls.

[metz]

Say what you like but Sauber was always a well run team.
BMW needs to build on that.
I hope Peter stays involved.
More funding will go a long way towards solving the problem.
The BMW engine was also at the pointy end.
The trick will be to get the car and the engine to be more integrated.
That was always Sauber's problem with the Ferrari engine.
And to some extend it was William's problem with BMW.
If they can do this, make it all work well together, we will see a very competitive team.
It'll take 2 or 3 years to find out.

[polaris]

Originally posted by Cosmograph
Polaris, you can also make the same case (more so in fact) for Porsche given their enormous success in many different formula. That guarantees nothing in F1, however, and you just can't claim that 70's saloon car success is in any way indicative of success if F1 during this era.

i was simply pointing out that BMW has had a great deal of success in motor sport. Im not sure if I have understood your point correctly but the F1 engines in the early eighties were derived directly from those in the touring cars.

[polaris]

Originally posted by kayemod


I've always been primarily an F1 follower, so you probably know more about this than I do, but are you sure about that BHP figure? From a normally aspirated 3.5 litre straight six? The racing Evo3 M3s only got 300+ from 2.5 litres.

you are right, maybe i should have been more specific. The normally apirated engine gave some 440 hp and the turbo 750 (In fact up to 800 in some forms)