51 replies to this topic

[Bonde]

Take a look at this item: http://www.herregaar...il.aspx?EID=272

It doesn't state what marque the car is, but I'm sure several TNF members will recognize it. I would have thought 1947 would realistically be too early considering immediate post-war Germany's predicament...

[uechtel]

Thank you very much for pointing me to that! In fact I am very surprised!

Not by the given date of production, even if I think 1947 is indeed just a little bit too early. But from 1948 onward German enthusiasts created quite a number of Formula 2 racers based on pre-war BMW 328 machinery.

But what surprises me really is the car itself, as I have to admit, that I do not recognize it. So what can it be?

I can not imagine, that in those days a car like this was created without any public attention (so that we should know about it today). For example when Holbein and Polensky announced Germany´s first Formula 2 cars in 1948 the press did some extra coverage and there was even an article in the Swiss "Automobil Revue". So either that car was created much later and a real looser (so that nobody took any notice of it) or it must have received some major modifications in its further life, which make it hard to identify, what it has been before.

The radiator inlet is a little bit Veritas-like, but this is contradicted by the BMW engine, and the offset-position of the air intake on the bonnet does not fit to either of them. My first impression was, that it looked like a Formula Junior, but these came into fashion much later, around 1959/60. The only thing I found with any similiarity is the car on the following picture, which itself is still a mystery to me:



Other than I wrote before meanwhile I found out, that it is for sure not an AFM and not Heeks the driver. To me indications point towards Willi Sturzebecher in a Veritas at Dessau 1953, but that still needs a final confirmation.

[roger_valentine]

If uechtel can't identify it, nobody can. Looks a bit like Bertil Lundberg's special.

[uechtel]

Originally posted by roger_valentine
If uechtel can't identify it, nobody can.

Roger, thank you for the laurels, but nobody can know everything, in particular on this subject.

So always best thing to get closer to the truth is discussion:

Looks a bit like Bertil Lundberg's special.

Had this idea, too, and with the rear part of the car you could be right. But at the front the Lundberg car has much more bulky lines:




I even wonder how a BMW 328 would fit under that bonnet.

[Vitesse2]

Well, I can't believe you haven't identified it, Markus: it's obviously an Eigenbau! Sorry - couldn't resist!

It does look a bit small for an F2 - I get the impression it's only about as big as a Cisitalia D46 - which would mean a 328 would be a bit of a squeeze in there!

[RTH]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Well, I can't believe you haven't identified it, Markus: it's obviously an Eigenbau! Sorry - couldn't resist!

Richard, I think for those of us who failed 'O' Level German that needs a bit of explanation, I take it the literal translation of Eigenbau is Self-Built or what we might here call a' home made special', but perhaps in German there is a double meaning ?

[uechtel]

Originally posted by RTH


Richard, I think for those of us who failed 'O' Level German that needs a bit of explanation, I take it the literal translation of Eigenbau is Self-Built or what we might here call a' home made special', but perhaps in German there is a double meaning ?

No, your explanation is perfect!

[Vitesse2]

Sorry - in-joke!;)

The entry lists of most East German F2 races of the late 1940s and early 1950s suggest that by far the most prolific constructor was Eigenbau, in fact in some races almost every car was an Eigenbau-BMW. Unfortunately 'Eigenbau' is German for 'Special' and in the absence of a contemporary East German motor racing publication East German historians can shed little light on the origins of some of the cars.

Article initialled ML (Mike Lawrence) in David Hodges' A-Z of Formula Racing Cars.

The word East is somewhat superfluous, since there are (or were) quite a few mysterious West German Eigenbaus too!

[Michael Müller]

For all who don't know why a 328 engine could not fit under this bonnet:



The auction description talks about 3 Weber carbs, which - if not unlikely at all - for sure are not periodlike. And even if Webers are mounted, that does not explain the air scoop located on the side.

[Tomas Karlsson]

I saw this car ten years ago at a Swedish museum owned by a well-known restorer. Since I have a special interest in the post-war German cars, I tried to find out more about the car from the owner. When he understood that I knew a bit about these cars, he became very secretive and didn't want to tell me more. All I got to know was that it was a Veritas (?) and that it had been found the eastern part of Europe.
I heard somewhere that it had caused some sort of discussion at a veteran cars meeting in Sweden. That was the last I heard of it.
I remember that it had a BMW engine, but my impression was that it was a modern fake.
I'll see if I have some more pictures.

Lundbergs BLG was partly destroyed in the sixties, when some young guys started to rebuild it into a sportscar. The beautiful aluminium body was cut up, and trown away. They put on an Ockelbo glassfibre body in stead. The remains of the car still exists and the present owner is building it up again. I don't know how far he has got, but he has been very thorough in his research.

[Tomas Karlsson]

Actually it was eleven years since I saw the car and now I remember that my camera had broken down at the time. But I did a quick drawing of the car.
I also remember that the owner didn't call it a "Veritas", but "a F2-car built by BMW"!?!
According to the sign at the museum the car was from 1948...

[Bonde]

A 'mystery car' indeed!

For the benefit of non-Scandinavian TNF readers, here's the (literal) translation form the Danish auction caption:

"BMW FII racing car, model 1947 with 6 cylinder 2-litre engine with 3 double Weber carburettors. Built with [sic] tubular chassis and aluminium bodywork. Formula Two [sic] was a racing category for open racing cars [sic] and was run in support of formula 1 [sic]. FII is the descendant of well-known pre-WWII Voiturette class [sic]. The car is ready to run and in original condition [sic]. My be viewed by special arrangemet".

None of this, of course, throws any light on the matter, but I do find €200.000+ a bit steep for a car with an undisclosed heritage and history. Had it been an AFM or Veritas it would surely have been recognized as such? Still, it appears to be a rather pretty little car, with a somewhat Lago-Talbotesque nose...

[uechtel]

Tomas, congratulations for your drawing skills!

Originally posted by Tomas Karlsson
I saw this car ten years ago at a Swedish museum owned by a well-known restorer. Since I have a special interest in the post-war German cars, I tried to find out more about the car from the owner. When he understood that I knew a bit about these cars, he became very secretive and didn't want to tell me more.

That is exactly what makes me feel uncomfortable with the car. The information given is so little and vague, while the price seems very concrete. And in all my sources and records there is not much space for such a car.

Here all BMW- related Formula 2 cars of German origin I have to offer. Candidates for the mystery car in blue:

1947 Braun "Eigenbau": Much more bulky and completely different shape and suspension -> out
1947 Gerbel "Eigenbau": Started at Eggberg in 1947 and 1948 and Schauinsland in 1950 and 1951. Fate unknown
1948 "Monopol" (Polensky) : Rear engined -> out
1948 "HH 48" (Holbein) : Converted into a sports car by Wahlberg (you know the story better than me...) -> out
1948 Zaiser "Eigenbau": Only an entry for Hockenheim, no further mention at all. Fate unknown (if it ever came to existence)
1948 Baum "Eigenbau": Car exists today; completely different shape -> out
1948 Veritas Monoposto "#1" (the later Orley Speciale) : Unknown fate
1948 Prinzbach "Eigenbau": Started in 1949 at the Schauinsland. Fate unknown
1949 AFM "#1": Different shape -> very unlikely
1949 AFM "#2": Different shape -> very unlikely
1949 Veritas Monoposto "#2": Mysterious car appearing only in the result lists of the Schauinsland 1949 and 1950. Unknown fate
1949 "HH 49" (Holbein) : Car exists today; different shape -> out
1949 "Der weiße Traum" (H. Weber) : different shape -> out
1950 AFM "#3" (Rieß) : Car exists today -> out
1950 AFM "#4" (Stuck) : Car converted into sports car later -> out
1950 AFM "#5" (Gommann) : Car converted into sports car later -> out
1951 "Heck" (Klodwig) : rear engined -> out
1953 Veritas Monoposto (Sturzebecher) : see picture above; but was it BMW engined?

Hope I have them all.

Nothing among them that would put my money on...

[Terry Walker]

Just a suggestion: curved right-angled tubular inlet manifolds and 3 horizontal dual throat Webs? Then body tidied up. That would make the bonnet a bit lower. It does seem a bit sleek for a home made car from the forties.

[uechtel]

Originally posted by Terry Walker
Just a suggestion: curved right-angled tubular inlet manifolds and 3 horizontal dual throat Webs? Then body tidied up. That would make the bonnet a bit lower. It does seem a bit sleek for a home made car from the forties.

Everything is possible, but it would have been very unusual. Nobody else seemed to have problems with the downdraught configuration, not even when production continued at Bristol. And for sure they would have far better technological means for such adaptions.

[Tomas Karlsson]

It does seem a bit sleek for a home made car from the forties.

The guy who owned the car when I saw it, was an expert on aluminium bodies...

[uechtel]

What about the "Orley Speciale"? Veritas origin with BMW implanted later. The car was used frequently between 1949 and 1952, but before it disappeared I found a final entry for Orley at the Schauinsland hillclimb in 1953 with a "Veritas Ford-Spezial".

So which Ford engine would have been in question? Could that explain the different air intake position? If so, then [speculation mode=on] the restorator could have had a problem fitting the original carbs of the BMW beneath the low bonnet... [speculation mode=off].


To see what I am talking about here a picture of the car from 1952:





And also one from the rear:





Do we know about the fate of the "Orley Speciale"?

[uechtel]

And that bulge in the bonnet already indicates the problems they have had to get the engine inside:

[Tomas Karlsson]

A friend of mine thought he had heard, that the car was found in the Check republic...

[st59cz]

Check republic...

I don't know this animal.

[Tomas Karlsson]

It should have been "Czech Republic" of course...

English isn't my first language, as you can understand... (strange English spelling BTW).

But if we talk about the car: Have we got any experts on the Czechoslovakian racing history?

[st59cz]

We have not, but i try to see, when i am at home again..

[sat]

I have not find similar car among Czech racing cars. For me look car too new and pretty. It is possible that it differ from his original appearance, as in many other "restorations".

[Hugo Boecker]

I do not think that the shape of the car is original so you cann't compare it with the "real" cars from the 40/50s.
If it is found in Czechoslovakia I belive it has an East-German background. And at least I would not rule out the Holbein cars.
http://cp.hoca.de/pd...aben/21-100.pdf
As you can see BMW built a new HH 49 from some remains. Yes the HH 48 was convertered into a sportscar, and Walberg met his fate with this car. But there were a lot of parts still remaining. So we not building a "new" car with them ?

[Tomas Karlsson]

According to a friend of mine the car came in its present form to Sweden from somewhere in Eastern Europe. Probably the Czech Republic. So it has probably not been "restored" in Sweden.
I think we can assume that it didn't look like this when it raced, which make it hard to identify.
I got a new name: Roland Moll, who is said to have converted two 328s to monoposto form. Anyone who knows more about him?

[alessandro silva]

It is Roland MALL. He drove two cars, but no monoposto. It could have been modified later, of course. Uechtel can tell more.

[st59cz]

I have not stated it was "restored" in Sweden. Such type of artist you can find around the world. But also I not insist this is the case, only estimate...

[Tomas Karlsson]

Don't misunderstand me, I myself have suspected that it was a fake, built in Sweden right up until now.
Since I found it at an experienced restorer, I thought that he had at least built the body.
But doing some more research, I have changed my opinion. It could well be a real racing car. The question is which one....

[Hugo Boecker]

Here are pictures of the Mall-BMWs.
This is Schotten 47. Mall's car is the one in front with a ponton form

and this is Mall at a race in Berlin 1949 with his "Spitzmüller-BMW"


As far as I know after 1949 Mall and his cars disappeared from the German racing scene. So a "may be ..."

[uechtel]

In fact Mall´s car was a rebodied Neumaier Spezial. I can´t imagine, that it was converted into that monoposto, it would have meant to build it completely new. Also it can´t have been in 1947 as Mall still drove the car throughout 1949.

And still the question who would have done that conversion and why no information about this to the public.

Sorry, I´m a bit in hurry at the moment...

[Tomas Karlsson]

The Moll (sic)/Mall suggestion came though a friend of mine from Halwart Schrader. But having seen the pictures, I think we can count him out. He didn't even change the car to a centre-seat.

[Michael Müller]

Originally posted by Tomas Karlsson
When he understood that I knew a bit about these cars, he became very secretive and didn't want to tell me more. All I got to know was that it was a Veritas (?) and that it had been found the eastern part of Europe.

For me this says enough. Before the fall of the iron curtain Eastern Europe was an often used "origin" for racing cars which suddenly appeared on the scene, because nobody was able to countercheck. The auction description without a single word about the car's history is also rather strange. Weber carbs in Eastern Europe? Very unlikely in my opinion.
Without a reasonable and proven history nobody will pay the asking price, times are over when Japanese collectors bought everything...!

[uechtel]

Originally posted by Hugo Boecker
Here are pictures of the Mall-BMWs.
This is Schotten 47. Mall's car is the one in front with a ponton form

and this is Mall at a race in Berlin 1949 with his "Spitzmüller-BMW"


As far as I know after 1949 Mall and his cars disappeared from the German racing scene. So a "may be ..."

In fact these two cars are one and the same, rebodied for the 1949 season.

But don´t forget there was also his brother Hans-Georg Mall:



seen here at the Karlsruhe "testrun" in 1946.

Another Neumaier Spezial (just like the other one above), but with 1500 cc engine. But other than his brother his known appearances end in 1947, but he continued entries until 1950. But his car was of course a two-seater, too, so I think we can exclued it either.


To sum up my opinion I am very much with Michael, for the claimed price I think the information given is suspiciously poor.

[Tomas Karlsson]

The auctionists have presented a bit more information about the mysterious BMW racing car.
http://www.herregaar...oside.aspx?P=30

[Tomas Karlsson]

I will try to translate:
"It is a F2 racing car built in 1947, probably in Hungary, on a well made tube frame.
The front axle is a EMW 340 and the rear axle also from a 340 but shortened.
The engine is a 2-litre BMW 327, fitted with 328 sports ignition and 3 downdrought Weber carburettors.
There is no "dynamo".
The car is in fine condition with an aluminium body, that makes you think of the Veritas racing cars from 1947-48.
In the first years after the war there were no F1 races, but all over Europe F2 cars were built, mostly with parts from pre-war BMW 328's.
In Denmark we didn't have any BMW racing car, because there were no parts to build any.
This actual racer is a bit special in that it is built upon BMW 327 and 340 instead of 328 parts. The wheels are of 349 type and has got 700x16 tyres. Probably to compensate for a 4,5:1 rear axle."

I hope all Danes will forgive me for my lousy translation, but hopefully the important facts are right.

[Michael Müller]

The "additional facts" make the car even more suspicious.....!

"In the first years after the war there were no F1 races, but all over Europe F2 cars were built"

Well, an owner of a racing car from the 40's should know more about this period! Who built the car? Who raced it? Where?

[uechtel]

Tomas thank you, it makes a lot easier to deal with that now.

Some remarks:

It is a F2 racing car built in 1947, probably in Hungary, on a well made tube frame.

Sounds strange, as tube frames just came into the mood around that time in the West. Certainly no need to build such a chassis to be competitive in Hungary

The front axle is a BMW 340 and the rear axle also from a 340 but shortened.

The BMW (EMW) 340 was presented to the public for the first time at the Bruxelles and Leipzig exhibitions in 1949. Production start autumn 1949. So how could one use the parts in 1947?

Of course it might be pre-war BMW 326 parts from which the 340 was developed.

The car is in fine condition with an aluminium body, that makes you think of the Veritas racing cars from 1947-48.

We all know Veritas did not start building racing cars like this before 1949/50 (ok, besides the Orley prototype, but that did by far not look that professional).

In the first years after the war there were no F1 races, but all over Europe F2 cars were built, mostly with parts from pre-war BMW 328's.

But in all my sources I did not find a single occasion of a Formula 2 race in Hungary neither any appearance of an Hungarian car nor driver in any Formula 2 race in the times of the two litre formula.

In Denmark we didn't have any BMW racing car, because there were no parts to build any.

One of the reasons why the Eisenach factory finally surrendered in the legal strife with BMW (Munich) and changed the company name into "EMW" was, that otherwise they would have lost their sources of desperately needed foreign currencies, basically the export markets of the Netherlands and ... Denmark!

So the most common place to find BMW/EMW 340 parts outside East Germany would have been there...

This actual racer is a bit special in that it is built upon BMW 327 and 340 instead of 328 parts.

Unusual indeed. The 327/340 were no match at all for the 328. But on the other hand also not. For example von Falkenhausen and Krause used parts of the 326 in their cars.

[Hugo Boecker]

But in all my sources I did not find a single occasion of a Formula 2 race in Hungary neither any appearance of an Hungarian car nor driver in any Formula 2 race in the times of the two litre formula.

and if such a car exist in Hungary in 47/49 it would have been a copetitive starter at the Brno race in the early 50's. But no such car was there.

[Kaha]

The car has some large signs on the side that is the logo of Motorima .

Motorima is a Swedish company that used to build advanced "kit cars" and later switched to restoring old cars and creating new bodies for old cars, being experts at crafting very nice aluminium bodyworks.

While I have the highest regards for their skills as restorers/builders, I have to say that the history of some of the cars that has been restored/rebuilt there has been a bit if not questionable at least exaggerated (this could of course be due to the owners trying to increase the value/intrest for their cars).

I think that I have seen this car raced by Magnus Ahlqvist himself some times.

[Tomas Karlsson]

That was what came to my mind when I saw it a decade ago (see previous mail). But according to Gunnar Elmgren the car looked like this when Ahlqvist got it.

[Bonde]

If you go to the Motorima website and click 'Race', there's a photo of the vehicle in question at some 'Oldtimer Grand Prix' at Anderstorp.

I'm beginning to sense that this car has little to no original racing pedigree - if so it's way too expensive IMHO.

[uechtel]

Thanks for the link.

And I found also pictures of an interesting Veritas there:





Also from this car the chassis looks a little bit unfamiliar to me:



So is anything known about the identity of that car?

[karlcars]

Very interesting thread indeed.

The information about the engine solves the question of the bonnet height, which doesn't have to be so high with a 327 engine. Also the only engines of this ilk I know of that could take double-throat Weber carburetors -- downdraft -- were the six-port heads made by Bristol for their sports cars.

A quick check of the relevant BMW engine does show both inlets and exhausts on the right, which is in accord with the photos.

[Tomas Karlsson]

So is anything known about the identity of that car?

The Veritas is really a Veritas, but not an RS. It was a coupé (Comet?), but the body was unrestorable, so the new Swedish owner thought that he rather would have an RS. That's where Ahlqvist comes in...

[Hugo Boecker]

There was a Veritas Coupe at the Allan Söderström museum in Malmö, but I think the museum is closed and I don't know what happened with the car. Could it be that car ?

[Tomas Karlsson]

I have no idea...
Is there someone who knows more about the Veritas chassis-numbers? I haven't really understood how they were numbered.

[Bonde]

Slightly OT, but FWIW from what I believe is the same workshop, this recreation/rebuild has also emerged: http://www.race-cars...131105487ss.htm

[uechtel]

Yes, I think the car is to be seen in the fourth pciture in my last post.

To "convert" a Comet into an RS by cutting the roof off in my eyes is a double sacrilege. Not only that you build up a fake, but also you destroy an invaluable original.

@Tomas: Veritas chassis numbers is a mysterious thing. Most are four digits, but also some five digit numbers. Also the Meteor cars seem to have "42xx" numbers while the RS numbers usually start with 5.

[Tomas Karlsson]

Slightly OT, but FWIW from what I believe is the same workshop, this recreation/rebuild has also emerged: http://www.race-cars...131105487ss.htm

I tried to understand the text about the car, but I only got more confused. How can they call it a Ferrari?
I wonder what the restorer can make of my Opel Astra.... A Bugatti?

[Tomas Karlsson]

I have been in contact with Ahlqvist whose father owned the BMW previously. It had been imported to Sweden from Hungary in the early 80ies by Gert-Ove Johansson. Ingemar Ahlqvist bought it and only repainted the car (it had been in many colours and chrome) and changed the seat to a more comfortable one.
Along with the car was a photo and a magazine about Hungarian post-war racing where the car was supposed to appear on a picture. It was called "old number 3".
The car was later sold to Denmark. But Ahlqvist didn't even know that the car was on an auction today.

About the "Ferrari" - Magnus Ahlqvist only did the body to the owners specifications and he had nothing to do with the rest of the car. He was a bit shocked when he saw that the car was called a Ferrari in the advert...