122 replies to this topic

[Gary C]

Lads, I have a good contact at BBC Worldwide (who release the BBC back catalogue of TV & radio programmes) and am writing to him (unbelievably, I used to work with him 20 years ago!), with the idea of a motor racing DVD compilation culled from the BBC Archive. Can anyone suggest any gems? For me, I'd just LOVE to release the whole of the 1973 British Grand Prix in its' entirerity, which I know exists on the original VT (we all know THAT'S not going to happen!!). Which was the race that JYS crashed into the bank at Copse, RIGHT in front of the camera?? Int.Trophy?

[D-Type]

Villeneuve and Arnoux at Dijon
Villeneuve leading the train in Spain
Hunt at Suzuka
Merzario in Austria (or was it Hungary?)
Mansell's tyre in Australia
Peterson taking Woodcote
Anybody at the Nurburgring
Some of the classic overtaking moves: Mansell and Piquet, Mansell and Senna, Senna and Prost
Some of the early stuff - I don't know what the BBC have. Gonzalez winning at Silverstone, Hawthorn at Reims, Moss/Brooks at Aintree (I've seen Pathe news of this), Moss at Monaco (any of his 3 wins)
I could go on for ever, but I'll leave that to those with better memories

[Andre Acker]

Gary,

I do not know what BBC may have on archive, but F1, F2, F5000, SP races from the 60's and 70's would be very welcome as there are not many DVDs about that period. More, for the years after Ecclestone, FOCA and company took control of motor racing, there will be "copyright" (license) to be paid, surely.
A special race come to my mind, Italy GP 1971. I never saw even a little piece of film about it.
Regards,
André Acker.

[MonzaDriver]

I've read on the thread " 1 litre Formula 3 "
that during the '68 '69 '70 BBC aired the F3 races.
Maybe this a good idea, on the thread the TNFers describe those races like something mythical.
Some British's GPs of the 60's, I have never seen a whole GP with Jim Clark.
Any way you know, everything from 1963 until 1978 is OK!!!
All the very best for your initiative. From the heart.
MonzaDriver.

[Paul Taylor]

Yeah, that was the 1971 Intl Trophy, Gary...

I think whole races would be great, to be honest. A lot of Grand Prix from the 70s that have been shown on the TV are simply 10 minute highlights, if not shorter.

[Stephen W]

The two races the BBC have shown as 10 minute fillers would be nice to see in full:

a) Gerry Marshall in the Vauxhall at Crystal Palace in a Special Saloon race.

b) The Formula Three race at Crystal Palace featuring the James Hunt/Dave Morgan punch up!

On the Formula One front I don't know if any footage still exists of the 1967 Italian Grand Prix but I remember that as being a cracking race.

What about all the Formula Two races from Thruxton?

There must be zillions of hours of priceless material!

[Gary C]

'There must be zillions of hours of priceless material!'
Well, I wouldn't bet on that, Stephen, this IS the BBC, after all!
Incidentally, the F3 Crystal Palace Hunt/Morgan race WAS shown in its' entireity in the series '100 Great Sporting Moments' in about 1985. Time to see it again, methinks!

[St.Hubbins]

The Saloon race was also featured on "100 Great Sporting Moments", but whether it was the full race I am not sure.

[MCS]

The final laps of the 1970 Monaco Grand Prix, especially the last corner of the last lap when Brabham went into the straw bales and Rindt passed for victory...

[Barry Boor]

I want as much of the 1961 Monaco Grand Prix, (in black and white!) as possible but I bet it has long since gone in a skip.

[Cirrus]

You know my choice, Gary - THAT Crystal Palace F3 race (plus any other 1 Litre F3 races that haven't been wiped).

The '73 British GP wasn't broadcast in it's entirity at the time, IIRC, so yeah - that one as well

And Monaco '70

And Monza '67

And, And, And...........

But, is this a pipe dream? - or might it actually happen?

[Gary C]

Fingers crossed Alan. My contact is quite high up at BBC Worldwide, so hopefully we'll hear something from him when he's next in the office on Monday.

[Lec CRP1]

Personally, I'd love to see any motor racing footage from the 60s and 70s in all its videotaped glory (some of it may have ended up telecined, but there's a way to restore that these days).

[2F-001]

The Crystal Palace saloon (mentioned previously) from "100 Great Sporting Moments" was a cracker - Gerry Marshall, Mike Crabtree and I think it was either martin Birrane or Martin Thomas engaged in race-long dice.

I'm sure a fair chunk of the '69 British GP was shown more or less live) or at least on the same day) - a tremedous battle between Stewart and Rindt. That was the first time I'd been to Silverstone - and my first GP - we went to practice, then saw some of the race on the telly (in the days when the race was on Saturday, of course). I don't think I've seen it since - so I wonder if that still exists.

From the same year, some of the Gp from the 'Ring was shown too. But a D-type said - anything from the Ring!

[Cirrus]

Inspred by this thread, I've just watched the 1970 Crystal Palace F3 race again. It's in colour, the camera angles are good, and although Dave Walker was never challenged for the win, the six car battle for second was superb. Although the cameras did not capture the shunt itself, they caught the build-up, and the post-shunt fisicuffs.

MonzaDriver - if Gary's dream DVD gets made - you'll love his race.

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by Lec CRP1

Personally, I'd love to see any motor racing footage from the 60s and 70s in all its videotaped glory...

And that goes for me too, Matt.

I sincerely hope something comes of this!

[fuz]

Originally posted by Stephen W

On the Formula One front I don't know if any footage still exists of the 1967 Italian Grand Prix but I remember that as being a cracking race.

Footage definitely exists as I have seen live coverage of much of the race from various sources, particularly the last 3 laps where Clark almost clinched victory after that amazing drive, and of course the finish between Surtees and Black Jack.

[David Beard]

Originally posted by Gary C
Which was the race that JYS crashed into the bank at Copse, RIGHT in front of the camera?? Int.Trophy?

Yes, and I was right behind the BBC camera man...



I know...I've posted this before...but any excuse

[jpm2]

Here's what I'd like to see again:

The dice between Clark and Gurney in 1965 RoC.

The first victory of the Eagle-Weslake in 1967 RoC.

The incredible 1967 Italy GP. And the 1969 and 1971 GPs also

The 1969 British GP (that can be seen as a tribute to J. Rindt)

The 1973 Sweden GP

[Andrew Fellowes]

Gary, got any ITN contacts? Their archive looks interesting though more news clip related.
http://www.itnarchive.com/

1 race I would like to see for sure. F2, Crystal Palace 1971, a golden age indeed, otherwise any 1960's F3 -!!!

[nmansellfan]

Originally posted by fuz


Footage definitely exists as I have seen live coverage of much of the race from various sources, particularly the last 3 laps where Clark almost clinched victory after that amazing drive, and of course the finish between Surtees and Black Jack.

The last few laps were on a programme called "Grand Prix 500" (narrated by Nigel Roebuck) shown on Boxing day 1990, complete with original commentary by Raymond Baxter. "Jim Clark has achieved the incredible!"

Unless there were some edits for "Grand Prix 500", im not sure if the '67 Italian GP was broadcasted live, rather it was shown edited later in the day. I say this because watching it again today (the programme was released on video as "The history of Formula One" in about '91) you can see Brabham overtaking Surtees into the Curva Grande, with Clark ahead already building up a big gap again. Baxter says there is three laps to go at this point. As soon as the Brabham and Honda move out of picture (camera shot is near the start/finish line opposite the pits, and follows the cars all the way down the straight) The camera lingers at the end of the straight for a second, then the next shot is of Surtees and Brabham through the Lesmos with Clark a couple of car lengths behind. (Jim lost the lead on the final lap didn't he?) From the one camera shot to the next Baxter continues commentating and expresses major suprise when Jim comes through the Lesmos in third place!

However Baxter's voice does sound like he was commentating at the track (it has that 'on the telephone' quality to it that you used to get with some european races up until the early 90's) So maybe it was all done live. I think some time back Rob29 posted a list of races the the BBC showed in '67, i can't remember if he posted the times they were on as well though.


On the same tape, there is also a clip of the '69 Italian GP with Murray Walker commentating. Its only the last half lap, but it ain't half good!

[RTH]

There were 2 documentaries each about 1/2 hr which I have never seen since they went out, most likely BBC.

A fly on the wall about Graham Hill's Embassy Shadow DN1 team right at the very beginning circa '73 ? I think this was made by Tony Maylem's independant production company if I remember correctly

A similar programme about Brian Henton's venture in to GP racing with his own self funded "British Racing Team " in a very secondhand wide nose March so probably '76, '77 ?

They were both quite fascinating, I would love to see them again.

Slightly different in the mid 60's there was a drama staring John Leyton , who was a pop singer as well as an actor , a story all about him racing a Hillman Imp, I remember a scene with him washing the carburetters in the kitchen sink ! ( struck a cord with me at the time ! )

There was a 1/2 hr documentary all about the Clan Crusader company who I think were in Washington new town who had brought in a PR company to help them boost flagging sales, you may remember that was the all GRP monocoque sports car with imp running gear which went on to be a frequent race winner

[Billy Sollocks]

Monaco Grand Prix from any year.
1962 Goodwood TT
1964 Silverstone Int. Trophy Race.


If only they would have kept the same sort of film archive of Motor Racing as they have of Cricket.

We are enthusiasts, and we would love to see everything possible... it is the BBC so don't lets get daft about this, we are living in dreamland aren't we...there isn't a prayer anyone in that building will produce anything worthwhile to interest us.... that is assuming the idiots haven't actually destroyed everything before 1978.

Put it all online and let us buy what we want... of what's left that is, ha silly me, too easy, much too easy.

Dream on folks!!

[Gary C]

what if they let me produce it for them?

[2F-001]

After all, those of us the UK have already paid for the material to be filmed in the first place...
(Or is that me being impossibly idealistic?)
;)

[simonlewisbooks]

Originally posted by Billy Sollocks
..that is assuming the idiots haven't actually destroyed everything before 1978.

[/B]

And there lies the problem!

Lets not forget this is the same BBC who managed to wipe the original Dr Who tapes in the not too distant past . Among thousands of hours of classic TV they also wiped a lot of the Peter Cook & Dudley Moore stuff, despite Cook pleading with them to be allowed to buy the tapes himself. All because they could save a few hundred quid on re-using the original tapes. And think how much revenue they could have earned from dvds of Dr Who alone!
Then there were all those 'lost' Dads Army and Hancock episodes that only emerged because they had been transferred to 16mm for export use and promptly forgotten. The original videos had been wiped years before...

It doesn't really look too promising chaps I'm afraid, so don't get too excited.
Best of luck Gary!

Simon Lewis

[Nordic]

Just in case this has escaped anyones notice.

http://www.britishpathe.com

British Pathe News was the forerunner of the TV news and ran in cinema's in the UK up till 1970 or so. They have hundreds of files available for download.

If you seach Le Mans, brooklands or other races 'TT' as the 'keyword' you get a treasure trove of clips.

Whilst there is a charge for a hi res version a low res is available free.

www.movietone.com is another archive of clips that may amuse.

[Superliner II]

Any of "The Power and the Glory" series.

1985 and 1986 British GP

[MCS]

Originally posted by simonlewisbooks


And there lies the problem!

Lets not forget this is the same BBC who managed to wipe the original Dr Who tapes in the not too distant past . Among thousands of hours of classic TV they also wiped a lot of the Peter Cook & Dudley Moore stuff, despite Cook pleading with them to be allowed to buy the tapes himself. All because they could save a few hundred quid on re-using the original tapes. And think how much revenue they could have earned from dvds of Dr Who alone!
Then there were all those 'lost' Dads Army and Hancock episodes that only emerged because they had been transferred to 16mm for export use and promptly forgotten. The original videos had been wiped years before...

It doesn't really look too promising chaps I'm afraid, so don't get too excited.

It doesn't really look too promising chaps I'm afraid, so don't get too excited.

Sadly, I couldn't agree more. The BBC - give me strength...

[PhilKerr]

Bernie's ownership of F1 footage is not from 1978 onwards it is retrospective and includes everything since 1950 so Bernie would have to be paid a fee for all the clips listed above so I don't see it being worth the BBC's while but good luck

[Eric McLoughlin]

The edition of Horizon called "Supercharged" about the pre-war Mercs and Auto Unions.

Does Bernie really own the rights to F1 prior to 1981? Why hasn't HE packaged the years 1950 to 1980 then? I know that TV and film footage before 1981 is patchy but a highlights package could be sorted out if sufficient material was still around.

The BBC get a lot of stick for wiping old tapes. In actual fact, it was common practice in the TV industry up until the 1970s to do this as videotape was expensive and the beauty of it was that it was reuseable. Also, up until the 1970s no one really had any notion that there would be nostalgic interest in old TV programming. Don't forget, the raison d'etre of TV was that images were being broadcast LIVE (even if recorded previously on tape) and, once the programme was finished being broadcast, it was assumed no one would want to see it again. Before 1980, most households had no means of watching pre-recorded material (unless being broadcast by the original TV channel) so there was no market for old TV product. Indeed, the message from the general public seemed to be "stop showing repeats" - the BBC in particular got loads of flak for showing repeats (they still do). This, of course, is totally ironic as a lot of the product of satellite channels is made up of endless repeats.

[Gary C]

'Bernie's ownership of F1 footage is not from 1978 onwards it is retrospective and includes everything since 1950'
That's not right.

[RTH]

If the BBC no longer have copies of much of the material and say many members here have VHS copies of programmes that went out in the post home video era of 1980 onwards, what I wonder is the position in getting viewers copy re-issued commercially in DVD form?

David Weguelin's www.motorfilms.com MotorFilms Quarterly in the 13 90min volumes so far , most of it is re-issue of other people's old archive professionally made motor racing films over the last 100 years, so presumably this is feasable ?

Might be helpful to hear what people here have copies of ?

[Gary C]

Richard, David actually pays for the use of those old films

[Eric McLoughlin]

Unfortunately, I would expect that the era of the BBC (and other broadcasters) retaining video footage as a matter of course probably pre-dates (by a couple of years) the availability of home recording.

From what I recall, the first VHS machines went on the market around 1976 but that most households did not consider acquiring them until the 1980/81 period (exactly the period when Bernie's FOCA acquired the rights for the F1 TV and video rights - no coincidence, I'm sure). Personally, I started retaining copies of F1 race highlights at the start of the 1983 season. I had contemplated doing it for 1982 as we acquired our first VCR at the end of 1981 but I felt at the time that VHS tapes were too expensive. In 1981, a blank three hour VHS tape cost around £6.99 to £7.99.

In 1983, the cost of blank tapes began to fall dramatically and that was why I started taping all the races (I finally stopped only this year).

[RTH]

I imagine viability on this sort of project depends entirely how much you have to pay,whether it is a one off up front fee, or a royalty per DVD sold .

As sales may well be under 1000 copies (maybe only a few hundred ) the copyright owners would need to take a very realistic view otherwise it's a complete non-runner for everyone and the materials originators would get nothing at all anyway.

Presumably David has a payment scheme which works for him as his business has been going some years now. Would be interesting to know exactly how it works.

[nigel red5]

Originally posted by Gary C
'Bernie's ownership of F1 footage is not from 1978 onwards it is retrospective and includes everything since 1950'
That's not right.

Seconded. It's from Long Beach 1981.

Gary,
I would ask you to consider the following thought... If say everything at your end goes well and a DVD such as this idea comes to fruition, to my mind it is'nt worth bunging a load of 10 min highlights of various races on it, which the originals of whatever races come to light have (for example) 35 minutes of each race. It would be much more advantageous to everyone if everything available from a particular race was to be released.. why? Because once you know everything is out and unlocked, then everybody knows, you, me, and the other enthusiasts who hunt the web and archive centres looking for a certain race, that there is nothing left anymore to collect of that race....meaning you can move onto the next one and see what's available for that If you go down the highlights route, then what happens if say several years down the line, you think "would'nt it be nice to get the rest of this race". You go back to the source and they say "sorry mate no, you already said 10 mins was what you need the last time". I'd ask you to consider that very carefully before making a judgment if you are closer to the key to unlock the jewels than the rest of us are.

You mentioned Britain 1973 If there's a full tape in there, get it out. I saw from your words that you suspect the same as myself - that a lot of the old stuff is 'fair game'. Therefore it's likely that the permission is granted by who holds any particular film, which as you know is the European broadcasters themselves who may / may not hold some tapes, such as our very own BBC. If that is indeed the case, the why won't they do it? I'd really love to know that.

Billy mentioned any old Monaco Grand Prix. Well they should be pretty easy. Everything from the 60s and 70s should be able to come out in it's entirity with no trouble at all. Monaco 1970 was sitting in one particular tv archive centre (lengthy highlights). This tv network aired the race because they "got the program for free in 1970, as the government in Monaco looked
upon such programs as tourist commercials ." Well.....once you hear words like that it's party-time! So in theory a lot of the Monacos should be able to come.

Richard : no go on that one i'm afraid. I contacted Mr Maylam myself about 18 months - 2 years ago, and he was very clear that he has no plans to transfer the film from it's original format into a DVD or VHS format for distribution or release. But that was then and this is now....

I'm glad that finally someone else is trying to get locked-up jewels released. Gary I wish you all the luck in the world with this project, because i know how hard it is to look for and unearth old material. Oh, and please check your PMs...

[Criceto]

A couple more nuggets that I know exist in the BBC vaults;

In 1993, the Gold Cup was run as a BTCC event. This gave the Beeb an opportunity to show several minutes of the 1965 Oulton Park Formula 1 race with Raymond Baxter commentary. This is very unlikely to have gone astray from the libraries in the modern era.

Also that year, during the celebrations of the Donington GP and the commemoration of the 25th anniverary of the loss of Jim Clark, Murray Walker and Tiff Needell introduced footage of club racing from Donington circa 1938 and sequences of a touring car race at Brands in 1966 with Clark three-wheeling a Lotus Cortina.

Again, it's out there. Someone somewhere must be able to prise it out of them.

[Gary C]

'Someone somewhere must be able to prise it out of them.'
Let's hope it's me then!!

[MrAerodynamicist]

For a while there has been the occasional rumbling about all of the BBC's archive being availabe online. Whether this will ever be more than hyperbole, who knows, but it's nice dream!

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by Gary C

Bernie's ownership of F1 footage is not from 1978 onwards it is retrospective and includes everything since 1950

That's not right.

I agree - it is, as far as I and my colleagues are aware, from 1983 (or is it 1982 - not strictly-speaking my dept!) onwards...

[Simpson RX1]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by RTH

Slightly different in the mid 60's there was a drama staring John Leyton , who was a pop singer as well as an actor , a story all about him racing a Hillman Imp, I remember a scene with him washing the carburetters in the kitchen sink ! ( struck a cord with me at the time ! )

Ah, John Leyton, had a hit with the road death song "Johnny Remember Me" (as produced by the legendary Joe Meek) which he performed on the ill-fated TV soap 'Harpers West One'.

Don't recall the Hillman programme, but sounds a bit like the series 'Driving Ambition' about the housewife that is pursueded by the ('Days Of Thunder' style) wronged mechanic to race a Modsports Mini which he has built................would love to have that series on DVD

[Eric McLoughlin]

Bernie's FOCA has the rights for the 1981 F1 season onwards. The first video they released WAS the 1981 season - narrated by Simon Taylor. Well worth watching too. It all seemed so casual then.

[Lec CRP1]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Simpson RX1
[QUOTE] Originally posted by RTH

Slightly different in the mid 60's there was a drama staring John Leyton , who was a pop singer as well as an actor , a story all about him racing a Hillman Imp, I remember a scene with him washing the carburetters in the kitchen sink ! ( struck a cord with me at the time ! )

Ah, John Leyton, had a hit with the road death song "Johnny Remember Me" (as produced by the legendary Joe Meek) which he performed on the ill-fated TV soap 'Harpers West One'.[/QUOTE]

Glad to see someone else here knows about Joe Meek

[Eric McLoughlin]

Mr Meek was the most successful producer in the UK pop charts up until the arrival of George Martin and The Beatles. Listening to the stuff his artistes recorded nowadays, they do seem rather naff.

[simonlewisbooks]

Originally posted by Eric McLoughlin
Mr Meek was the most successful producer in the UK pop charts up until the arrival of George Martin and The Beatles. Listening to the stuff his artistes recorded nowadays, they do seem rather naff.

But Meek did practically invent the modern multi-track studio style of recording I believe.
As for the sound of his recordings - well anything that's the height of fashion at ony time is always 'naff' to a later generation, thats the flaw of fashion in general.
For example, buildings styled to the highest of 50's or 60s avant garde fashion now look damned atrocious and not fab and groovy, man...

This thread has all gone wonderfully OT again...

Simon Lewis
Transport Books
www.simonlewis.com

[RTH]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Simpson RX1
[QUOTE]

Don't recall the Hillman programme, but sounds a bit like the series 'Driving Ambition' about the housewife that is pursueded by the ('Days Of Thunder' style) wronged mechanic to race a Modsports Mini which he has built................would love to have that series on DVD [/QUOTE]

........Trust me you wouldn't really, I supplied one of the cars on that series a F3 Ensign and spent a fascinating day at the disused Ex - Handley Page aerodrome in St Albans where the BBC filmed the action shots, - with an absolute army of BBC staff - they even brought enough film extras ( with costumes ) to fill the grandstand they had built ! .....as well as a 20 strong lighting crew - it was a bright sunny June day !......and 3 40 ' catering trucks with the most fabulous buffet lunch for everyone.........and I got very hansomely paid.

It was a 13 part 1hr made for TV series in 1983 and to be honest was too bad to relate to anyone

.....Wasn't Joe Meek responsable for 'Telstar' by the Tornados ?

[ian senior]

Originally posted by RTH


........Trust me you wouldn't really, I supplied one of the cars on that series a F3 Ensign and spent a fascinating day at the disused Ex - Handley Page aerodrome in St Albans where the BBC filmed the action shots, - with an absolute army of BBC staff - they even brought enough film extras ( with costumes ) to fill the grandstand they had built ! .....as well as a 20 strong lighting crew - it was a bright sunny June day !......and 3 40 ' catering trucks with the most fabulous buffet lunch for everyone.........and I got very hansomely paid.

It was a 13 part 1hr made for TV series in 1983 and to be honest was too bad to relate to anyone

.....Wasn't Joe Meek responsable for 'Telstar' by the Tornados ?

Yes, avoid like the plague unless you are a lover of programmes so bad they are good. Full of sexism - the women are all paragons of virtue, the men are either idle slobs or obsessives, the scripts were weak, the acting was bad.... I could go on, but I won't. Not a bad idea and it could have worked well if they had avoided stereotypes in the characters, and employed a script writer who knew something about motor racing. Glad to hear that Richard made a few quid out of it, though!

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Eric McLoughlin
Mr Meek was the most successful producer in the UK pop charts up until the arrival of George Martin and The Beatles. Listening to the stuff his artistes recorded nowadays, they do seem rather naff.

Some of it's naff (mainly because of the banal lyrics and overblown vocals - his beloved Heinz is guilty of a lot of that) but if you ignore the voices and words and listen to Meek's production and work out just what he was achieving and how he was doing it, with cheap, home-made equipment and a lot of imagination, some of his tracks are phenomenal. Phil Spector's Wall of Sound done in a back room in Holloway. If he'd had George Martin's budget..... wow.

I've got an MP3 of a very odd demo of Telstar with someone (Meek himself presumably?) humming most of the guitar part -- barking but wonderful.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Superliner II
Any of "The Power and the Glory" series.

1985 and 1986 British GP

Whatever happened to the (Rendall-produced?) McLaren series The Team about their 1993 season? - to the best of my knowledge it's never been repeated and never appeared on video or DVD. There were some fantastic scenes in it, particularly a very paternal Ron Dennis talking to youngsters called "Big Boy" and "Charleyrascal" on the phone - at the time we wondered if they were F3 drivers he had under contract or his and Lisa's kids ;)

It pulled a few punches around the area of Michael Andretti's disappointing underperformance and Senna's initial reluctance to sign a full contract, but on the whole it was a very good portrait of an F1 team. (ITV had another one in about '99 based around Arrows, which was occasionally very frank but concentrated more on the 'poor bloody infantry' of the team).