33 replies to this topic

[Tmeranda]

Why do F1 manufacturers make it so hard to tell their two cars apart? The numbers and drivers names, if present at all, are so small that they cannot be read at speed. If it weren’t for the red/black coloring of the TV cameras they would be identical. What purpose does this serve?

[Ben]

Originally posted by Tmeranda
Why do F1 manufacturers make it so hard to tell their two cars apart? The numbers and drivers names, if present at all, are so small that they cannot be read at speed. If it weren’t for the red/black coloring of the TV cameras they would be identical. What purpose does this serve?

Good question.

I always liked it in the 80s/ early 90s when Ferrari put day-glo yellow strips on the wings of one of the cars. Sauber Group C cars also used to have different day-glo colours on the rear view mirrors.

I think something on the airbox, mirrors, or wings to differentiate between the two would be a good thing seeing as helmet designs are so hard to see as well these days.

Ben

[bluetentacle]

The cars do bear considerable similarity to each other in their basic shapes. It's partly the function of an "ideal" configuration emerging out of 50 years of technological evolution, and partly due to the FIA's restrictive technical regulations.

That said, each car does have unique features, and I'm willing to be that anyone paying marginally close attention to the technical side of F1 is able to do pretty well in identifying a series of cars painted the same color. Personally I'm confident enough to score 100%, given that the cars are presented in freely rotating 3-D models.

Why doesn't someone come up with a Flash app to test exactly this hypothesis?

[mart]

Big numbers take up valuable sponsorship space.

Camera pods are coloured bright orange/red specifically to show which car is driver 1 for each team plus all drivers have their own helmet designs.

[Tmeranda]

I'm not talking about telling a Ferrari from a BAR. I'm talking about telling the difference between drivers from the same team.

[bluetentacle]

Originally posted by Tmeranda
I'm not talking about telling a Ferrari from a BAR. I'm talking about telling the difference between drivers from the same team.

Sorry. Misread you.

[mart]

I'm not talking about telling a Ferrari from a BAR. I'm talking about telling the difference between drivers from the same team.

Tmeranda, I just answered that.

Originally posted by bluetentacle Personally I'm confident enough to score 100%, given that the cars are presented in freely rotating 3-D models.

Why doesn't someone come up with a Flash app to test exactly this hypothesis?

Bluetentacle, don't forget the cars change from race to race in some way so that tiny element you picked up on one car that makes it stand out in a crowd could well turn up on 3 or 4 cars a couple of weeks down the line.

You have given me an idea re. the rotating model identification game tho - lucky I have access to 3D models & a bunch of artists ;)

[bluetentacle]

Originally posted by mart


Bluetentacle, don't forget the cars change from race to race in some way so that tiny element you picked up on one car that makes it stand out in a crowd could well turn up on 3 or 4 cars a couple of weeks down the line.

You have given me an idea re. the rotating model identification game tho - lucky I have access to 3D models & a bunch of artists ;)

Over a season a car rarely strays from its basic outline, though. Implementations of the same aero device usually differ in noticable ways from car to car.

Looking forward to your app.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Weird, Ive never had any problem picking between cars, and its my job to look at a pretty small thumbnail and caption it before going into the gallery. I go 100% by helmets, though thats easier on a static shot.

Ben you mentioned color strips, what about the difference in color in roll hoops? Red tends to be the team #1, or lower numbered car, black is the teammate, and yellow is the friday driver.

[Ricardo F1]

I can tell them pretty easily too ; especially when one has JUAN written on the sidepod and the other KIMI.

[Tmeranda]

Telling the drivers from the helmet design isn't always that easy either. There were several times when MS and RB's helmets were very very similar. If it weren't for the fact that MS was always in the lead, it would have been very hard.

Ricky,

Thats only at some races.Most times they have the same livery.

[turin]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
I can tell them pretty easily too ; especially when one has JUAN written on the sidepod and the other KIMI.

That's even easier. JPM's car is the one crashing.

Seriously though, helmets is the way to go. It was easier in the past though, before the cockpit head protection. Actually, IIRC is part of the reason for Michael going into the red helmet...it was way too similar to RB's.

However, I always liked those big numbers on the front of the car, ala 80's Ferraris, (especially #27)
Nowadays, numbering is ridiculous and basically useless for identification purposes. Does anyone have seen somtehing more useless that the numbers used by Williams a while ago on the front wing, under the nose?....ugly stuff.

-pato

[fumes]

I can't be sure, but I have the feeling that it's worse today than it was before. Or maybe my eyesight is going ...

But more than once I've been amused when one car in team xxx has retired, and the remaining one pits or something, and the TV commentators say "One of the xxx is pitting, and it's - hmmm - ah, yes!, it must be xxxn."

[Ben]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Weird, Ive never had any problem picking between cars, and its my job to look at a pretty small thumbnail and caption it before going into the gallery. I go 100% by helmets, though thats easier on a static shot.

Ben you mentioned color strips, what about the difference in color in roll hoops? Red tends to be the team #1, or lower numbered car, black is the teammate, and yellow is the friday driver.

Honestly never noticed that the cameras where different colours. Probably indicative of the fact that I've watched more motorcycle racing this year :-)

Ben

[Thanh Ha]

The cars are going so fast these days you have to have pretty big numbers to see them at speed, and that would be a waste of space. I personally use the colour of the on-board camera to distinguish drivers and that works pretty well for me.

[Rob G]

Originally posted by turin
Does anyone have seen somtehing more useless that the numbers used by Williams a while ago on the front wing, under the nose?

It wasn't so bad when they were running walrus nose, since the nose cone stopped well short of the front wing. But when they switched to a more conventional nose they kept the number on the newly-hidden center part of the wing, which made it virtually impossible to see. That's also where Jordan and Minardi hide them, and Jordan's was especially ridiculous since at the start of the season their car was almost completely bare of sponsor logos.

There isn't a single team in F1 today, with the exception of Renault, who doesn't have plenty of space somewhere on the car to stick a decent-sized number on each side. I wish the FIA would mandate their usage again. I can never remember helmet colors. The camera pods are really helpful, but race cars are supposed to have numbers on them.

[Don Speekingleesh]

Originally posted by Rob G

I wish the FIA would mandate their usage again.

It's still in the rules that they have to have them. In fact:

When a car is shown on a 25 cm television monitor in such a way as substantially
to fill the screen in at least one dimension, its race number must be clearly visible from the front of the car.

Although I think there used to be more detailed specification of the size the numbers had to be.

[skinnylizard]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Weird, Ive never had any problem picking between cars, and its my job to look at a pretty small thumbnail and caption it before going into the gallery.

i dont have much problems with recognizing drivers, the helmets are pretty good indicators. though sometimes when they show a car beached in a long shot it is hard to tell, otherwise no probs really.

[WACKO]

Originally posted by Ben

I always liked it in the 80s/ early 90s when Ferrari put day-glo yellow strips on the wings of one of the cars. Sauber Group C cars also used to have different day-glo colours on the rear view mirrors.

Watch the colour accents at the sides of the cameras. They tell you a lot. However, I agree it's not very visible at speed. You've got to see it through the difference in helmet design. That distinguishes the driver from another. The reason the cars are similar is that it takes the least possible time to rebuild the car/t-car for the other driver. Furthermore, despite minor accents the FIA prescribes that cars must look identical.

[Zoe]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
I can tell them pretty easily too ; especially when one has JUAN written on the sidepod and the other KIMI.

I was always wondering what sort of product or company this ad was for

Zoe

[SeanValen]

Helmets are very important, I think since Senna's yellow helmet, they've become apart of the scenery, even now when I think of f1, it's the stars on Schumi's helmet, and past drivers like Senna walking around with his yellow helmet.

The cars are way fast these days as well, hard to pause it while live and marval at them etc.

[Tmeranda]

Originally posted by Thanh Ha
The cars are going so fast these days you have to have pretty big numbers to see them at speed, and that would be a waste of space.

Better not tell the advertisers that! If they go so fast you can't read a number, how on earth can you read the logos?

[CONOSUR]

In F1, people like to refer to the drivers, not the car numbers, so the real reason cars don't have large numbers on them is to prevent viewers and commentators from referring to them as "the 3 car" and "the 19 car" a la nascar.

[Dudley]

Originally posted by CONOSUR
In F1, people like to refer to the drivers, not the car numbers, so the real reason cars don't have large numbers on them is to prevent viewers and commentators from referring to them as "the 3 car" and "the 19 car" a la nascar.

Which is good, because it's a practice that annoys me intensely.

[CONOSUR]

Originally posted by Dudley
Which is good, because it's a practice that annoys me intensely.

Even though I made that comment purely in gest, I completely agree with you.

[turin]

In F1, people like to refer to the drivers, not the car numbers, so the real reason cars don't have large numbers on them is to prevent viewers and commentators from referring to them as "the 3 car" and "the 19 car" a la nascar

what was the problem with "red five" or "27" ?

I know you were sarcastic, but we should note that FIA scrutinery refers to cars ( by their number) and not drivers.


I would love to see big numbers in a white circle again (oh, Ferrari is using them now, but a bit small IMHO) . Maybe the FIA should provide the stickers to uniform the grid on this aspect. (*daydreaming*)


-pato

[CONOSUR]

Originally posted by turin
what was the problem with "red five" or "27" ?

Nothing at all...as 'Red 5,' in particular, was a personal nickname, and '27' was associated with histroical events. But, and I like this part, we F1 fans don't have to listen to our TV personalities make comments such as, "What a fantastic move the 9 car just put on the 5 car!"

Arrrrggghhhh...... The cars didn't do it. The drivers did.

Fingernails....chalkboard....

[Sean McC]

Yes, I'd like car numbers to be more visible too. They've stopped having the number on the side of the rear wing too.

[turin]

Originally posted by CONOSUR


Arrrrggghhhh...... The cars didn't do it. The drivers did.

I know, but the interesting point is that FIA broadcast says that the "incident between cars 10 and 14 will be investigated bla bla", not "between JPM and JVi". However, penalties are imposed on the driver (as they should be). So, what is the point of doing that? Saving screen space?

Thus, what is the point of having numbers at all if is not differentiating cars during the race, which is not (fully) accomplished by the current numbering display regulations. I can hardly see the stewards looking for the car number when analyzing race incidents.

Number 1 is different, because it pays tribute to the current WC, but it can also be done by putting a large WC on the nose, or a flower for that matter.

-pato

[Rob G]

Originally posted by turin
Number 1 is different, because it pays tribute to the current WC, but it can also be done by putting a large WC on the nose

Considering the negative traditional connotation of the letters "WC," perhaps that's not such a great idea.

[mikedeering]

I just go by the helmets. To be honest I couldn't tell you the numbers for half the grid anyway, especially the backend. Is Kimi 9 or 10? I think 9 but wouldn't know for sure - and he has won 8 races this year!

It's always amusing watching on TV when the caption comes up saying something like "Car 15 under investigation by the stewards" and I am wondering who the hell that might be.

[turin]

Originally posted by Rob G

Considering the negative traditional connotation of the letters "WC," perhaps that's not such a great idea.

The flower it is, then

-pato

[Calorus]

Personally, i always preferred the Williams blood Fangs of Hill's in 95 & 96...

[fifi]

Originally posted by mikedeering
I just go by the helmets. To be honest I couldn't tell you the numbers for half the grid anyway, especially the backend. Is Kimi 9 or 10? I think 9 but wouldn't know for sure - and he has won 8 races this year!

It's always amusing watching on TV when the caption comes up saying something like "Car 15 under investigation by the stewards" and I am wondering who the hell that might be.

i generally go by helmets as well.....can be fun tho when james allen saying something like kimi has retired when its really juan