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The Mickey Thompson 'Sears Allstate Special' cars of 1964


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#1751 ensign14

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 14:48

Hey! Cut poor Mr. Palmer some slack. Somebody moved (or removed) his braking marker. :stoned:

 

Did they remove his brain as well?



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#1752 LittleChris

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 21:25

On the basis of this thread and the recent comments, I've just ordered Black Noon via Amazon ( £8.34 plus P&P) and very much looking forward to reading it.



#1753 10kDA

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Posted 17 May 2014 - 13:17


...I would not at all be surprised if during the introduction or during the broadcast of this years event a somewhat different view of the accident is presented by the media because of this book.

 

Also, I am of the opinion that this thread and the members here at TNF had a major impact on the development of this book.  All should be commended.

 

Henry :wave:

 

I agree. This may turn out to have been the highest purpose of the book. Given the opportunity offered by a tragic "anniversary" we're far more likely to encounter sordidness, sensationalism, and exaggerations from the disposable media than from an author intending to create a more permanent account. It bugs to hear some of the stuff put out there by TV commentators when their employers are also paying former racers for credible, knowledgeable contributions.

 

If it's true that after the years of discussion here, this thread influenced the book and its spin/take on the event, well then, good job! This is just an internet forum, a loose collection of nuts and bolts which, as is often the case, has evolved over time to contain a much bigger picture of the topic than one would believe possible. A "real" book has a level of credibility and influence which is (usually) unlikely to be ignored. It's great to know that the contributors here will have had some effect in steering the public perception of the '64 race when the inevitable references come up through the month of May.

 

 

Well done, all.

 

Chris



#1754 Henri Greuter

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Posted 17 May 2014 - 19:33

Hi Henri. 

 

Received my copy yesterday but will be away from T.V., phone and internet this weekend with family members. 

 

Plan to begin reading on Monday. 

 

Did take a quick glance of the introduction and having followed the development of this book to a certain extent, I am of the belief that it is going to be of interest to a very large amount of motorsport fans as we move into and beyond the 50th anniversary of the tragedy in a few days.

 

I would not at all be surprised if during the introduction or during the broadcast of this years event a somewhat different view of the accident is presented by the media because of this book.

 

Also, I am of the opinion that this thread and the members here at TNF had a major impact on the development of this book.  All should be commended.

 

Henry :wave:

 

 

Henry,

 

You've been ridiculed out here by some because of your zeal about getting done the impossible.

But it appears as of much of what you hoped to achieve has happened after all.

Feel proud about what you have coordinated and kept going and eventually has come of it.

 

It may not be your book but it looks to me that one of the major subjects being dealt with in this book reads much different than what many buyers anticipate to read because of what you've started.

 

Kudos

 

Henri



#1755 Henri Greuter

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Posted 18 May 2014 - 10:01

Yesterday evening (my time) I was listening to the radio report of the qualifying at Indy. During a rain break there was an interview with the writer of "Black noon", Art Garner. Eventually the talk as about some of the persistant rumors about the accident and Garner told that one of the biggest surprises to him was that so many people still talked about the Thompson car carrying some 100 gallons of fuel while it is by now proven beyond doubt that this was not the case at all and that it contained some 45 gallons.

He made a few more comments which I recognized as sentiments expressed over here in this forum thread as of what could have been the case why these rumors persisted for so long.

 

Henri


Edited by Henri Greuter, 18 May 2014 - 10:02.


#1756 HistoricMustang

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 11:41

Henry,

 

You've been ridiculed out here by some because of your zeal about getting done the impossible.

But it appears as of much of what you hoped to achieve has happened after all.

Feel proud about what you have coordinated and kept going and eventually has come of it.

 

It may not be your book but it looks to me that one of the major subjects being dealt with in this book reads much different than what many buyers anticipate to read because of what you've started.

 

Kudos

 

Henri

Henri, as you know I met Sherry MacDonald in a September when she arrived in Augusta, Georgia for the dedication of a street named in honor of her husband.  This thread was started a few weeks later after she, my wife and I cried together at the airport upon her departure.  I met her two children one year later in Augusta. 

 

Ridicule of me is not an issue when after over four decades answers were necessary for the MacDonald family.

 

This group has been a driving force behind an understanding that some crazy young hot shot did not arrive at Indianapolis in 1964 and throw caution to the wind which resulted in two very special individuals being killed.

 

I begin my read this A.M.

 

Henry  :clap:



#1757 HistoricMustang

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 13:56

My first read is complete and IMHO "Black Noon" is a well researched motorsports book with "Love Story" mixed in and personal touches added by the major players between Indy 1963 and up to and including after Indy 1964. 

 

It will be added to the list of must reads by motorsports fans and actually has all the making for a very good movie if approached in a professional manner as has been done in the printed version.

 

Having said that and with no intention to spoil the story for those not yet versed in the reading of "Black Noon" and because I have been asked to do so, let me say that after I "personally" ruled out mechanical failure as the cause of the accident, I "personally" gradually moved to the conclusion mentioned in the book on page 234 and the first paragraph on page 235. 

 

Again, IMHO (IN My Humble Opinion) the accident went beyond those possible conclusions reached on page 234/235.  But, those discussions will have to wait until most of the TNF members have read the book and are open to further discussions about the accident at Indy 1964.

 

Most of us are put on Earth for a mission, other than the legacy of our families, and in my case that mission is just about complete.

 

The families of the MacDonald's and the Sach's should be very glad that Art Garner was put on earth for "this" mission.

 

Henry :clap:



#1758 Henri Greuter

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 07:23

 

Having said that and with no intention to spoil the story for those not yet versed in the reading of "Black Noon" and because I have been asked to do so,

 

 

 

Henry,

 

Who has asked you to do so?

 

Meanwhile, I have received one question already by a bigtime Novi fan who regularly contacts me: The question being:

 

Why didn't George Peters and I mentions in Novi Vol 2 that Stirling Moss once testing a Novi yet declined on racing it at the speedway?

Because that can be found in "Black noon"

 

??????????

 

 

Henri



#1759 Emery0323

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 09:27

I bought the book this weekend at the local brick-and-mortar bookstore and read most of it.   It appears to my non-expert mind to be a well-researched documentation of the events, but it could do with some more illustration:  A re-publishing (or re-drawing) of the diagram that ran in the Aug. '64 Car and Driver would be helpful in understanding the sequence of events. The reader is left with only a confusing verbal description as it is.

 

http://8w.forix.com/...iver-indy64.jpg


Edited by Emery0323, 27 May 2014 - 09:39.


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#1760 HistoricMustang

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 14:05

I bought the book this weekend at the local brick-and-mortar bookstore and read most of it.   It appears to my non-expert mind to be a well-researched documentation of the events, but it could do with some more illustration:  A re-publishing (or re-drawing) of the diagram that ran in the Aug. '64 Car and Driver would be helpful in understanding the sequence of events. The reader is left with only a confusing verbal description as it is.

 

http://8w.forix.com/...iver-indy64.jpg

This drawing is not accurate.  Major issue is that MacDonald had completed turn four exit.

 

Henri, bad written English on my part. 

 

No one has told me what to write. 

 

I was referring to your request for my thoughts.  Sorry.

 

Henry  :clap:

 

 

 

 

 

Henry :clap:



#1761 ZOOOM

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 18:48

The diagram also indicates MacDonalds car had a right side fuel tank....

Which we now know is false...

ZOOOM



#1762 Emery0323

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Posted 27 May 2014 - 19:03

The diagram also indicates MacDonalds car had a right side fuel tank....

Which we now know is false...

ZOOOM

 

 

This drawing is not accurate.  Major issue is that MacDonald had completed turn four exit.

Agreed- Both are reasons why a revised and corrected version drawing would have been a helpful addition



#1763 TrackDogll

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 03:30

Evidently, the #83 handled pretty good with a full fuel load.  I wonder just what it would have handled like near the end of a fuel load, though...and I also wonder if Dave wasn't thinking the same thing and was trying to make hay while the sun was shining, so to speak.

 

 

Dan



#1764 Henri Greuter

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 09:32

May 30th 2014

 

The 50th `anniversary` of the events  that eventually lead to this thread coming into existance.

 

Rest in peace Dave MacDonald

Rest in peace Eddie Sachs

Rest in peace Mickey Thompson

 

I hope all of you have found more peace now the truth about some events of that day and the days before it have finally come into the spotlights.

 

 

Henri



#1765 TecnoRacing

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 07:33

Surely one the best spur-of-the-moment racing epitaphs bears repeating...

 

            To Davie

 

I know a Speedway in the sky,

Where brave young drivers
thunder by.

And all who this racing
game,

Must know Fate may call
their name.

 

- May 31st, 1964

 

 

RIP Dave MacDonald, Eddie Sachs



#1766 Seppi_0_917PA

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 04:45

Dave MacDonald's son recently expressed his perspective on the crash: http://www.trackforu...t.php?p=3719374



#1767 Jimisgod

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 15:31

http://www.foxnews.c...ompson-and-his/

Interestingly this just happened recently regarding Mickey's murder.

#1768 Henri Greuter

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Posted 02 February 2016 - 10:25

Yup, I'm bumping up this one another time.

 

But with a reason.

 

Because of the website articel on 8W about this 1964 tragedy, I was contacted by John Crosthwaite, Jr, the son of John Crosthwaite. He supplied me with a bit of info his dad had written in his autobiography about 1964.

I have updated the 8W site already with the info supplied but I feel it being appropriate to share it in this thread as well because it was this thread that inspired me to create that series of articles for 8W.

 

John Crosthwaite (designer of the 1962 and 1963 Thompson cars)  left Mickey soon after the 1963 Indy 500 and joined Holman Moody to design an Indy 500 car for them but left once they lost Ford sponsorship. He then joined BRM at the beginning of December 1963.  BRM were considering an entry for The Indy 500 in 1965 and since Crosthwaite had some experience he accompanied Tony Rudd for an exploratory trip to Indianapolis.

 

According his son, this is what John Crosthwaite wrote about 1964 and what he had observed when watching the reworked versions of the car  he had designed a year earlier

 

'In May 1964, I went with Tony Rudd to Indy for qualifying only, just so he could look around and I was truly horrified to see what Mickey had done to my rollerskate (now with 15inch wheels). To get the huge overhead cam. Ford racing engine into the car, they had just bent the 1inch dia. engine compartment tubes, round the engine – this meant the chassis had no rigidity at all and would just flex and eventually break. I told Fritz (Voight) this wasn’t on and he just shrugged. I can’t see how it got through technical inspection!!  I wish I had made more of   a fuss  about it, it might have saved  Drivers lives. Mickey’s driver was killed during the Race when he apparently lost control on the pit straight, spun, caught fire and caused a major pile up and other causalities.    Terrible !! .''

 

 

So it appears as if there has been a `modification` onto the chassis that contributes to the several statements about the cars that their chassis were flexing madly.

Hope this is of interest for those among us who have been contributing to solve some of the mysteries and riddles related with the accident.

 

thanks,

 

Henri

 

 

 

 

 



#1769 Michael Ferner

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Posted 02 February 2016 - 15:32

Oh, do we need to go over this all over again?? Testimony #321,569 by someone who knew it all before, with the benefit of hindsight! Thank you, file away under "useless".

:rolleyes:

#1770 Rob Ryder

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Posted 02 February 2016 - 18:45

Oh, do we need to go over this all over again?? Testimony #321,569 by someone who knew it all before, with the benefit of hindsight! Thank you, file away under "useless".

:rolleyes:

I just love members with open-minded attitudes (and good manners) :rolleyes:  :rolleyes:

 
Rob


Edited by Rob Ryder, 02 February 2016 - 21:00.


#1771 Michael Ferner

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Posted 02 February 2016 - 21:01

Thank you.

#1772 E1pix

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Posted 02 February 2016 - 21:41

Yup, I'm bumping up this one another time.
 
But with a reason.
 
Because of the website articel on 8W about this 1964 tragedy, I was contacted by John Crosthwaite, Jr, the son of John Crosthwaite. He supplied me with a bit of info his dad had written in his autobiography about 1964.
I have updated the 8W site already with the info supplied but I feel it being appropriate to share it in this thread as well because it was this thread that inspired me to create that series of articles for 8W.
 
John Crosthwaite (designer of the 1962 and 1963 Thompson cars)  left Mickey soon after the 1963 Indy 500 and joined Holman Moody to design an Indy 500 car for them but left once they lost Ford sponsorship. He then joined BRM at the beginning of December 1963.  BRM were considering an entry for The Indy 500 in 1965 and since Crosthwaite had some experience he accompanied Tony Rudd for an exploratory trip to Indianapolis.[/size]
 
According his son, this is what John Crosthwaite wrote about 1964 and what he had observed when watching the reworked versions of the car  he had designed a year earlier[/size]
 
'In May 1964, I went with Tony Rudd to Indy for qualifying only, just so he could look around and I was truly horrified to see what Mickey had done to my rollerskate (now with 15inch wheels). To get the huge overhead cam. Ford racing engine into the car, they had just bent the 1inch dia. engine compartment tubes, round the engine – this meant the chassis had no rigidity at all and would just flex and eventually break. I told Fritz (Voight) this wasn’t on and he just shrugged. I can’t see how it got through technical inspection!!  I wish I had made more of   a fuss  about it, it might have saved  Drivers lives. Mickey’s driver was killed during the Race when he apparently lost control on the pit straight, spun, caught fire and caused a major pile up and other causalities.    Terrible !! .''[/size]
 
 
So it appears as if there has been a `modification` onto the chassis that contributes to the several statements about the cars that their chassis were flexing madly.[/size]
Hope this is of interest for those among us who have been contributing to solve some of the mysteries and riddles related with the accident.[/size]
 
thanks,[/size]
 
Henri[/size]
 
 [/size]
 [/size]
 [/size]
 [/size]

Thank You, Henri.

#1773 Ray Bell

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Posted 02 February 2016 - 22:13

Bearing in mind the earlier 'testimony' of Jack Brabham regarding Masten Gregory's statements after driving this car and not wanting to go any further with it, I would say this is most relevant...

Not only that, there might well be photographic proof of what Croswaithe says somewhere, and I'm sure we'd like to see that if it can be found.

It certainly isn't right for The Assassin to come in here and condemn yet another person 'who was there in the day' for their perspective being added to this thread.

#1774 Henri Greuter

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 09:26

I had written:

 

So it appears as if there has been a `modification` onto the chassis that contributes to the several statements about the cars that their chassis were flexing madly.

 

 

Looking back on it I should have written:

 

John Crosthwaithe's observation don't explain the accident or settle for once and for all what exactly has happened with Dave MacDonald that cause him to crash. It does hoever provide an clue as of what kind of modifications had been carried out on the original 1963 cars to update them for the 1964 season and what effects they had during the practice weeks and contributed to their reputation even before the start of the race.

 

This thread has a title that indicates it goes about the 1964 Mickey Thompson cars, And that is what I posted: an observation made about the actual cars. As far I can see, the only better manner of obtaining it was if I had it obtained from John Crosthwaite personally but that is impossible since he is no longer with us. But getting it from his son in a most pleasant manner who permitted me to make it public is more than good enough for me and I believed it to be good for they who have followed this thread over the years as well and participated in it.

 

On page 4 of his book "Black noon", author Art Garner wiped the floor with everything he found on the internet regarding this accident. Which I feel to be an insult to all of us participating in the early years of the discussion. At about 2007 we had deducted that a number of long told facts about this accident were not correct and were different. A number of these details are being published by Art Garner in his book and all of a sudden made our discoveries `speculations and what if scenarios`. Garner's book was hailed as being revolutionary since it told something new and corrected history. Perhaps for the majority of Indyfans it was. But not anymore for the people who particiapted within this thread and shared/combined their knowledge and conclusions.

I'm very sure mr. Garner will have had a field day when he reads certain recent comments within this thread that support the opinion he published about, among others: this thread within TNF. Credibility for the Internet coverage of the 1964 accident being destroyed within such a `source of speculation and what if senarios` (copyright 2014, Art Garner)   itself.

 

That is all that I want to say about why I posted my original post #1768.

Should I ever get more reaction as a result of my work at 8W that contain info related with the 1964 Thompson efforst, I will keep sharing them over here as well. I feel that I owe that to the majority people who made this thread into what it is: an example of amature historians doing a better research job then professionals had done for a long time about the subject. This despite some negative comments and input that can be found as well.

 

Henri


Edited by Henri Greuter, 03 February 2016 - 09:28.


#1775 Michael Ferner

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 09:40

Wow, I'm The Assassin! :cool: :smoking: I'll take that as a compliment; I know you meant it that way, Ray :love: :love:


So, here we are again. People assessing 1964 engineering standards with 2016 knowledge, attempting to villify certain persons (be they Mickey Thompson, Dave MacDonald or Jim Clark, we've seen it all within the confines of this thread), trying to put BLAME... somewhere, anywhere in fact. What for? To satisfy a goulish, sensationalist interest, that's all.

Why don't you take the same sort of interest in, say, the accident that killed Frank Farmer and Bill Neapolitan in 1932? They were also two exceedingly fine drivers, killed in one moment, gone from the earth; another accident that could've been avoided, if only they had known about seat belts, roll-over bars etc., proper engineering in one word. Tell you why, there weren't 200,000 people in the stands, no television cameras recording for several more millions, no fire, no HORROR in front of a suitably horrified audience. And no means to analyse a simple thing to death by overcomplication.

Several pages back, one poster put it succintly into a few words: "A car spun off in turn four, that's the long and the short of it" Never a wiser word was spoken! It's the quintessence of the whole thread. Just try and accept. :)

#1776 Ray Bell

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 11:07

Originally posted by Michael Ferner
Wow, I'm The Assassin! I'll take that as a compliment; I know you meant it that way, Ray.....


I don't know how you can do that, frankly...

I've always tried to maintain a high standard of tolerance and politeness on this forum. You have tended to make that very difficult.

.....So, here we are again. People assessing 1964 engineering standards with 2016 knowledge.....


Apparently you didn't read Henri's post. Quite clearly in that he mentioned that John Crosthwaite looked at the car and came to that conclusion with his 1964 knowledge in 1964.

Just as Masten Gregory was using his 1964 knowledge when he made his judgements about the car.

#1777 Michael Ferner

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 15:15

It doesn't matter if it's 2016 or June 1, 1964, it's the hindsight that clouds the judgement. And the memory.

C'mon, we've been through this before. If Masten was so convinced that the Thompson cars were deathtraps, why was he so hellbent on getting back into one on the last day of qualifying? And if Brabham believed the same, why did he focus on the MacDonald car that was so far ahead that it was physically impossible for him to observe, instead of taking note of the sister car that was running just ahead of him?

Racing drivers are human, like all of us, and they have the same psychological patterns when faced with disaster. Denial. It's the only way to survive.

#1778 Ray Bell

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 23:14

I thought Crosthwaite said he saw that in May?

And that he mentioned it to Voight before the race? And was bewildered that it passed the technical inspection (pre-qualifying)?

Not only that, I understood him to say he wished he'd made more of a fuss... this is not 'after the event' observation.

#1779 Henri Greuter

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 09:59

I thought Crosthwaite said he saw that in May?

And that he mentioned it to Voight before the race? And was bewildered that it passed the technical inspection (pre-qualifying)?

Not only that, I understood him to say he wished he'd made more of a fuss... this is not 'after the event' observation.

 

 

 

In all fairness, as I understand the notes of Crosthwaite, the comment that he wished he had made more of a fuzz about it appears to me as been made with hindsight. The part before must indeed be of 1964 heritage, discussing it with Voigt who was at the team at that point is the best evidence for it.  I won't rate that as an after the event observation. hence why I posted it.

it also struck me that here was so much talk about flexing chassis in 1964. Not impossible that I did a lousy research job but I don't recall finding many, if any statements like that about the original 1963 cars. So this observation of Crosthwaite is, at least for me, a very interesting one to add to the knowledge about the specs of the cars as they ran during practice when they built up that spooky reputation, even before their biggest `moment of fame` occurred.

 

I'll be the very last person who claim that the race day accident is explained because of this. let alone that it somehow played a part in the actual accident.

But part of the `myth` about `1964` is also the build-up to May 30th, and within that build-up this observation is worth to be mentioned I believe.

 

Henri



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#1780 E1pix

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 15:31

I for one certainly appreciate all your efforts around here!

#1781 Jim Thurman

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 18:57

If Mr. Crosthwaite wrote this years later, then the entirety of the statement was done in hindsight. And, as such, Michael's comment holds up. Every tragedy is rife with people who "knew" or "wished they could have done more" after the fact. Too much is made of how unstable the cars were, which came early in the month and had mainly been corrected. The best testimony in this came directly from Dave MacDonald's father, George, when he told Bob Thomas of the Los Angeles Times: "He was really happy with it by race time." His father said Dave had mentioned handling problems with the car, adding: "but, later he said that he was happy with the tires and the car." - Los Angeles Times, June 02, 1964.

 

To me, this is the best and most reliable testimony, particularly as it came just two days later.

 

You might not like Michael's brusqueness, but he makes some good points about re-hashing and post-trauma memories.


Edited by Jim Thurman, 04 February 2016 - 19:17.


#1782 Henri Greuter

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 20:21

If Mr. Crosthwaite wrote this years later, then the entirety of the statement was done in hindsight. And, as such, Michael's comment holds up. Every tragedy is rife with people who "knew" or "wished they could have done more" after the fact. Too much is made of how unstable the cars were, which came early in the month and had mainly been corrected. The best testimony in this came directly from Dave MacDonald's father, George, when he told Bob Thomas of the Los Angeles Times: "He was really happy with it by race time." His father said Dave had mentioned handling problems with the car, adding: "but, later he said that he was happy with the tires and the car." - Los Angeles Times, June 02, 1964.

 

To me, this is the best and most reliable testimony, particularly as it came just two days later.

 

You might not like Michael's brusqueness, but he makes some good points about re-hashing and post-trauma memories.

 

I think that I do understand what you wanna say regarding handsight or no. The statement is indeed written down with handsight, that is 100% sure. I have no problem to go along with that. Stll left is the fact that an eye witness had made an observation at that time which he told afterwards and this observation is one that, as far as I know, has not got much if any attention yet.

I keep repeating myself but my main aim was to inform the readers of this thread with this fact which dealt with the upgrade of the car for 1964.

As for what you think about what Dave felt about his car in race day trim, I also believe that he was satisfied with it compared with its behaviour early on in the month, as told by his dad within the article you quote.  I can add somthing to that but given the manner how some out here react I won't do such anymore.

 

Interesting coincidence with this article as well as another one that was published 2 days after the accident; It was already published very early June that the wreck of Eddie's Shrike still contained some 30 gallons of fuel. But that is another fact that never was given much attention ever since and for so long the Shrike was reported to be a 80+ Gallon bomb that had lost all its fuel in the accident.

 

Other then that, anyone can read as much as he want into it and unload his opinion about it and my intentions with publishing this quote on whatever manner (s)he feels appropriate. Like I already tried to explain: My main objective was to share an statement with an observation done at the time by an eye witness, be it written down with hindsight or not is beyond the point.

And again: It doesn't explain anything about the events on race day but might explain something about how the cars built up their questionable reputation before the actual race.

I don't point to who was responsible for that, I don't accuse anyone, I don't try to put the blame for it into someone's shoes. At least not that I am aware of. If anyone of you feels/reads so, then I apologize for that but it was definitely not the intention I had and I hope that  my intentions are clear by now at last.

 

For the time being I want to leave it at this point. I'll see what I do within this thread from now on should it be kept running by anyone else after this message.

 

 

 

Henri



#1783 Jim Thurman

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 17:38

Henri, do not take any of my remarks personally as they were not meant that way. They were general observations. I do think the thread disproved a lot of myths, but sadly, the way things work - especially the internet - the stories of the other fuel tanks, massive fuel load in a second tank, etc., will probably turn up again :(



#1784 Henri Greuter

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 09:27

Henri, do not take any of my remarks personally as they were not meant that way. They were general observations. I do think the thread disproved a lot of myths, but sadly, the way things work - especially the internet - the stories of the other fuel tanks, massive fuel load in a second tank, etc., will probably turn up again :(

 

Thanks Jim, much appreciated to know this and sorry in case you feel my comments as a personal attack as well.  :up:

 

 

As for internet rumours popping up, this week I found footage of alien orienated moon bases, photographed by the secretive Apollo 20 mission.

Now, there was only one rocket in the world exisiting that was capable to launch people to the moon: the Saturn V.

I don't know if you ever saw one of those.

Now, there was only one place in the world where the infrastructure needed to built, fuel and lounch one such a rocket was located. The last one left the earth for the moon on dec. 1972.  The last used Saturn V (May '73) put SkyLab in an orbit around the earth.

And even after 1973 it was next to impossible to built one up and launch it without no-one in the world noticing at least something. About the entire state of Florida was aware of it when one went up into the air.

Impossible to lauche without no-one in the world noticing at least something. So as for any evidence provided by a secretive mission Apollo 20....

 

Henri



#1785 Hse289

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 11:01

Henri, what is the name of the John Crosthwaite book please?



#1786 Henri Greuter

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 11:32

Henri, what is the name of the John Crosthwaite book please?

 

The book is not published (yet), I was contacted by his son who quoted from the notes his father had made.

I have not asked (yet) about any plans for publication.

But a book could be very interesting. I'll be back with you when I know more.

 

Henri



#1787 Hse289

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Posted 07 February 2016 - 19:32

OK, Thanks Henri.



#1788 Radoye

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Posted 26 May 2016 - 14:27

A piece by Curt Cavin from Indy Star: http://www.indystar....right/83818246/



#1789 lotuspoweredbyford

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Posted 07 June 2016 - 20:55

A piece by Curt Cavin from Indy Star: http://www.indystar....right/83818246/

 

I had the great pleasure of meeting Mrs. MacDonald and Rich MacDonald in May at the IMS Museum, was an incredible experience to speak with them.



#1790 HistoricMustang

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Posted 31 July 2016 - 15:48

I had the great pleasure of meeting Mrs. MacDonald and Rich MacDonald in May at the IMS Museum, was an incredible experience to speak with them.

They are indeed an incredible family.  During that same visit they (Dave's wife and his son) stood at the "exact" spot of the accident and later attended the race.



#1791 E1pix

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Posted 31 July 2016 - 16:53

Nice seeing you back, HM!

#1792 HistoricMustang

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Posted 03 August 2016 - 14:56

Nice seeing you back, HM!

Thanks.  It has been a wild few years with death all around and it is Hell getting old.

 

Hopefully, the members here (all of you) realize what a tremendous positive impact they have provided for the legacy of Dave MacDonald and his pretty cool family with this thread. I can not imagine what it took to experience the 100th running of the Indy 500 and the intestinal fortitude it took to stand on the spot where the MacDonald family was changed forever in an instant.

 

Finally, after decades, motorsports fans can make up their own minds.

 

The latest motorsports book "Lost Road Courses" by Martin Rudow does a tremendous job with a short segment on MacDonald as well as the 13 tracks he covers in his book..................and my "pet" project the memorial at the former Augusta International Raceway as well as covering that short lived road circuit with new information and photographs plus the in depth overview of what happened on and off the track in Augusta.

 

Thanks to all.

 

Henry :clap:



#1793 Henri Greuter

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Posted 15 May 2017 - 17:37

Incredible........

 

 

Just watching practice at the speedawy today (Monday May 15th) and listening to an interview with Johnny Rutherford.

According Johnny, there were only two cars in the race using gasoline and that wer the two cars having an accident.....

 

 

 

Henri



#1794 Collombin

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Posted 15 May 2017 - 17:51

"According to Johnny". No disrespect to JR the driver or man, but his recollections are not always entirely reliable.

#1795 Henri Greuter

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Posted 15 May 2017 - 18:01

"According to Johnny". No disrespect to JR the driver or man, but his recollections are not always entirely reliable.

 

 

Yup, I only posted it because Johnny's statements in '64 already were prime sources for the incorrect data being told for so long and obviously Johnny still couldn't erase and replace within his memory.....

 

 

Henri