25 replies to this topic

[marinmcgreevy]

Does anyone have any history on Winkelmann/Palliser Formula B cars? Does anyone have any history of a a Winkelmann WDB2 Formula B car that was converted to Formula Atlantic use in the late 70s? I do not have any history of the car. I believe it ran originally with a Lotus Twin Cam as a FB but at some point a BDA was added.

Here is a photo as it ran in Atlantics:

http://us.f1.yahoofs...CubzTDBX.hyVf_T

Here is a photo as the car is now:

http://us.f1.yahoofs...CubzTDBpxXj09Mg

Here is a link to a photo of a WDB2:


http://us.f1.yahoofs...CubzTDBZZ48o634

Any help would be appreciated.

Here is a link that should work if the direct links above do not:

http://briefcase.yah...m/marinmcgreevy

http://briefcase.yah...m/marinmcgreevy

[marinmcgreevy]

[marinmcgreevy]

[Allen Brown]

Hi

I think Yahoo is stopping these links working ... somehow .

Allen

[marinmcgreevy]

Here is my first try using imageshack.



Car as a Formula Atlantic

[marinmcgreevy]

Current condition of car:

[marinmcgreevy]

Here is a period photo (1969 or 1970) of a WDB2 that was sent to me by Robert Winkelmann.

[marinmcgreevy]

The photo from Bob Winkelmann is of Ron Dykes in Winkelmann's own B-2 car at Laguna Seca

[Allen Brown]

I'd never have believed that #12 was a Winkelman.

Any idea what year it raced as an Atlantic? Do you know what year that picture is from?

Allen

[Bonde]

Re #12: It's certainly no earlier than 1976 - probably 1977. Rareley has one seen such a deliberate attempt to make a lower formula car look like an F1 car - in this case the Ferrari 312T2. I wonder if those 'nostrils' acually fed air to anything...

Neat picture, though

[marinmcgreevy]

The photo of the car with the Ferrari-esque body was taken by me in 1988 in Palm Springs California.

I have a little more information on the FA Winkelmann. Evidently it was built as a Paliser. The story is that the car was one of two that was built as Paliser and originally fitted with the Cosworth BDA and ran in England before coming to the States. At some time after the car came to the States the body was built by a fabricator named Hageman. The Hageman body was all aluminum and the car was very heavy. I obtained the car from a man in the Central Valley area of California (Modesto I believe). He did not have the car very long and only used it for time trials (autocross). The car was last raced at a vintage race in Palm Springs California in 1988.

The car does not have the original log book and I know nothing of its race history before I acquired the car.

Any help in tracing the early history would be appreciated.

The nostrils kept the instruments cool.

[marinmcgreevy]

I just asked my wife if she remembered the vintage race in Palm Springs in 1989. Her memories were of the Chuck Berry concert at the hotel that was hosting the race. We also had dinner at Sonny Bono's restaurant and his wife (who became the US Representative after Sonny died in a ski accident at Heavenly) was the hostess.

She had no recollection of the car or the race.

[Bonde]

Marin,

Do I understand correctly that you have car no.12 in your posession? That body must've been built long before 1988 - I'd venture to guess 1976-1977, when the 312T2 was state-of-the-art.

Either way, the bodywork may be heavy and inefficient, but it is certainly beautifully crafted - especially impressive if it is all aluminium sheet metal work. I really like the appearance of that car - in spite of, or rather perhaps due to, its somewhat 'kitchy' attempt to look like a 312T2.

[marinmcgreevy]

Yes the car is in my possession. I have no idea when the Hageman body was built, but I would guess the early 80s. Someone when to great effort to change the image of the car. Nearly everything that was aluminum was anodized red. Everything, oil tank, brackets, caps, etc... The car does not have the usual Palliser/Winkelman Triumph front uprights but cast magnesium. My goal is to return the car to its original WDB2 appearance.

[Drouin66]

Yes the car is in my possession. I have no idea when the Hageman body was built, but I would guess the early 80s. Someone when to great effort to change the image of the car. Nearly everything that was aluminum was anodized red. Everything, oil tank, brackets, caps, etc... The car does not have the usual Palliser/Winkelman Triumph front uprights but cast magnesium. My goal is to return the car to its original WDB2 appearance.

I know a little about your FA Winkelmann check your in box I PM you. My father was the guy in the valley that autocrossed the car. He lives in Lodi, Ca not Modest, Ca.........Davey Drouin

[Marc Sproule]

My poor ol' brain cells keep telling me that I saw a Winkelmann in action in the SF region at the hands of Jimmy Santos in '74.

Is this correct?'

If so, I may, and I stress may, have some pics of it at Sears Point and maybe Laguna too.

If I'm correct I'll look to see if I indeed to have pics of that car.

[Chris Townsend]

My poor ol' brain cells keep telling me that I saw a Winkelmann in action in the SF region at the hands of Jimmy Santos in '74.

Is this correct?'

If so, I may, and I stress may, have some pics of it at Sears Point and maybe Laguna too.

If I'm correct I'll look to see if I indeed to have pics of that car.

Marc,

I think that you are right, and that was the first Atlantic that Jimmy ran, before he got his March 722/75B
[always interested in seeing SCCA pics and entry lists from that era]

[Marc Sproule]

Thanks Chris. Now I'll have to see if I indeed have any good shots of that car. I was just learning how to use a camera then and a lot of the images reflected that fact.

I don't have a lot of SCCA images but eventually will get around to seeing what I have. I didn't shoot much at Sears Point but did more stuff at Laguna Seca.

Once I got hooked on the Atlantic cars in '75 that was pretty much the end of my interest in the non-pro stuff.

Thanks again, it's good to know I'm not completely senile!!



ps
The only entry lists I might have are for the Atlantic series and they're buried somewhere in the garage. It will be many, many moons before any of those see the light of day again.

[layabout]

Marc,

I think that you are right, and that was the first Atlantic that Jimmy ran, before he got his March 722/75B
[always interested in seeing SCCA pics and entry lists from that era]

I've recently taken over the Palliser-Winkelmann Registry (www.PalliserCars.com). I've made some substantial changes to the site (we now have Classifieds, Restoration photos, Model photos & Specsheets, etc.) & I'm trying to get Palliser Winkelmann owners to revisit the site & maybe contact me so that I can expand the database, or entice them to provide content for the site. I would like to hear from any owners---even those who are already listed in the Registry.

Conversely, if you're a newbie & want to find out about the marque, I'm more than glad to converse with you. I raced a Winkelmann WDF2 in the early 70s & now have a pair of FB Winkelmanns (WDB2) that a friend of mine I run in vintage events in California.

Lastly, if you go to the new site, you will see some photos of the Jimmy Santos Winkelmann with the Ferrari 312T3-type body built by Hagemann.

My email is: ldebretteville@gmail.com

[RonPohl]

I recall racing with (ok, they were lapping my humble lotus 51) a couple of Winkleman formula b cars at Phoenix International Raceway in 1970.I have a result sheet (dated September 26, 1970)which shows a Greg Gosar finishing first. Stefan Rzenowiecky is listed as finishing 19 in a formula b Winkleman. A JJ Headrick finished 15 overal in a formula ford Winkleman.

[Allen Brown]

Ron, sorry to digress but could I get a copy of that results sheet please?

[RonPohl]

Ron, sorry to digress but could I get a copy of that results sheet please?

Will do. Give me a day or two. Cheers

[mariner]

This is a VERY vague memory but I seem to recall the Palliser being shown in chassis form at the UK racing car show in the 1970's.

IIRC It had unusual perforated beams on top of the chassis each side of the cockpit.

Also inboard springs maybe?

[layabout]

This is a VERY vague memory but I seem to recall the Palliser being shown in chassis form at the UK racing car show in the 1970's.

IIRC It had unusual perforated beams on top of the chassis each side of the cockpit.

Also inboard springs maybe?

The second generation Formula B car, the WDB2, had a perforated sheet metal brace that angled down from the roll bar to the dash---above the upper frame rail. The first generation B cars (WDB1s) had something similar, but it ran parallel to the chassis & I think the upper rail was part of it. None of the FFs or later B cars had it. I can't speak for the Super Vees. The rest of the WDB2 was similar to a BT21, no surprise since the designer, Len Wimhurst, came out of Brabham. Bob Winkelmann has subsequently told me that the suspension geometry was taken straight off of Rindt's dominant BT21 F2 car run by Roy Winkelmann Racing. Here's a shot of a WDB2 that shows the angled brace:



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Edited by layabout, 03 June 2012 - 03:49.

[Allen Brown]

Great picture. Which WDB2 is that?

[layabout]

Great picture. Which WDB2 is that?

Sorry for the two year delay in posting a response---I'd figured that everyone just about had their fill of Winkelmann postings!

 

This is chassis #4. It was originally purchased by Carson Baird, but he only ran it at a few races. Skip Adrian was the next owner & he ran it in the Continental Series in 1970---there were a lot of races in the series & he went to every one, from Laguna to Sebring. It was then purchased by Jimmy Santos & later by Dick Sasser who put a Ferrari 312T3-inspired aluminum bodywork on it that was done by Jack Hagemann. It was an exquisitely done job, but unfortunately lost to time. I think Dick's last race with it was at the Atlantic race with the USGP at Long Beach in 1981. That's a long active history for a race car---from 1969 to 1981.