130 replies to this topic

[Tomecek]

I hope admins will not consider this as unwanted thread, but I just could see very interesting thing.

Villeneuve actually cut the chicane while Montoya not. Kimi was outside of road too but that doesn't matter.

Why I am saying this that based on what I have seen I am surprised Villeneuve even fought with Montoya for position....

Any thoughts?

[Keffo]

huh? Montoya (also) cut the chicane I thought...

[Happs]

Originally posted by Keffo
huh? Montoya (also) cut the chicane I thought...

I believe he made it through without cutting the chicane.

[crackr]

Hard to tell with no appropriate footage...

[TailG]

anyone have a video clip of this accident?

[skinnylizard]

jacques said he didnt see Monty.

[karlth]

Originally posted by Keffo
huh? Montoya (also) cut the chicane I thought...

No.

1. Villeneuve, Pizzonia, Montoya and Raikkonen approached the chicane.
2. Villenueve outbraked himself and went over the chicane.
3. Montoya overtook Pizzonia under braking.
4. Raikkonen try to follow his teammate but outbraked himself and went over the chicane too.
5. Montoya having taken the racing line through the chicane powered up beside Villeneuve who was getting up to speed after exiting the run-off area.
6. Villeneuve either squeezed Montoya off track or didn't see him.
7. Crash.

[Tomecek]

Originally posted by Keffo
huh? Montoya (also) cut the chicane I thought...

He didn't I can see it and it's quite clear he didn't.

[Tomecek]

I am sorry I cannot make the movie, it's on my DVD recorder.

However there is one shot where it is possible to see that Montoya clearly follows racing line. I was looking for Villeneuve, he was on green after outbraking himself. I could aslo see Kimi outside of road (but not as much as Jacques).

Then Kimi's on board camera, where I can see Montoya goes on Villeneuve's left-hand side and then he is out of the road....

I do believe Villeneuve may be happy with 25 seconds penalty...

[Tomecek]

Also why I am saying this that in this case I don't think Montoya ondergo some unnecessary risk, he could clearly expect Villeneuve let him by...

[karlth]

Originally posted by Tomecek
Also why I am saying this that in this case I don't think Montoya ondergo some unnecessary risk, he could clearly expect Villeneuve let him by...

And Villeneuve wanted Montoya to lift off.

I am certain that Jacques saw him but was desperately trying to hold onto his position after the mistake at the chicane. We have seen it before from most drivers on the grid.

[Cosmograph]

Originally posted by Tomecek
Also why I am saying this that in this case I don't think Montoya ondergo some unnecessary risk, he could clearly expect Villeneuve let him by...

No .. Montoya was reckless. He clearly had a much superior car and could have possibly taken JV at corner one (start of lap two). I've seen it as well and he clearly wasn't "beside" JV in my estimation. Why the rush? Can't wait another corner and make it safely through ...

This is the same JPM who hit Kimi earlier in the lap Always the victim, never the guilty party

[skinnylizard]

Originally posted by karlth


And Villeneuve wanted Montoya to lift off.

I am certain that Jacques saw him but was desperately trying to hold onto his position after the mistake at the chicane. We have seen it before from most drivers on the grid.

someone can say the exact opposite. dosent prove anything. i still think Monty should have excercised caution. it would have been one position to gain or a race win to lose.

[karlth]

Originally posted by skinnylizard


someone can say the exact opposite. dosent prove anything. i still think Monty should have excercised caution. it would have been one position to gain or a race win to lose.

In hindsight, then yes of course.

The thing is though that this is essentially not a corner but a straight.

[mclarenroxxors]

Originally posted by Cosmograph


No .. Montoya was reckless. He clearly had a much superior car and could have possibly taken JV at corner one (start of lap two). I've seen it as well and he clearly wasn't "beside" JV in my estimation. Why the rush? Can't wait another corner and make it safely through ...

This is the same JPM who hit Kimi earlier in the lap Always the victim, never the guilty party

And why can't JV ram montoya off the track in turn one? Why would it be safe in turn one? When Montoya tried to pass he didnt know JV would ram him off the track, if he would have known like you do in hindsight I'm sure he would have waited.

[Speed Racer 99]

Originally posted by Cosmograph


No .. Montoya was reckless. He clearly had a much superior car and could have possibly taken JV at corner one (start of lap two). I've seen it as well and he clearly wasn't "beside" JV in my estimation. Why the rush? Can't wait another corner and make it safely through ...

This is the same JPM who hit Kimi earlier in the lap Always the victim, never the guilty party

Those are my thoughts exactly, and is one of the reasons I don't think Monty will ever when a F1 WDC. He just doesn't have any patience, and tries stupid moves that get him into trouble. I don't think a driver like MS/KR/FA would have tried a move like that, even in the heat of the moment. When Monty learns to have patience, he may be in there class one day.

[Cosmograph]

Originally posted by karlth


In hindsight, then yes of course.

The thing is though that this is essentially not a corner but a straight.

How is it a straight? They were coming off a corner that's why JV was looking to the right. Montoya but himself in harms way needlessly. A little more patience and he would have made the pass in due course. Boneheaded move pure and simple especially when you are in the top car in pitlane. Look at Kimi's patience in passing Michael during the race.

BTW, can a McLaren driver every make a mistake in your opinion ;)

[skinnylizard]

Originally posted by karlth


In hindsight, then yes of course.

The thing is though that this is essentially not a corner but a straight.

well it is all going to be hindsight....

im a huge fan of monty but i still think he could have excercised restraint. it was a risk just not worth taking. racing incident in the end but Monty lost more in the end.

similarly Alonso when he outbraked himself taking Klien he could have waited it out and done it on the straight.

[karlth]

Originally posted by Speed Racer 99


Those are my thoughts exactly, and is one of the reasons I don't think Monty will ever when a F1 WDC. He just doesn't have any patience, and tries stupid moves that get him into trouble. I don't think a driver like MS/KR/FA would have tried a move like that, even in the heat of the moment. When Monty learns to have patience, he may be in there class one day.

Montoya was essentially just driving past Villeneuve with both drivers going full throttle after Jacques made a mistake. I doubt it would even be classified as an overtaking move.

Are you saying drivers shouldn't drive past other cars?

[fastlegs]

Originally posted by Cosmograph


No .. Montoya was reckless. He clearly had a much superior car and could have possibly taken JV at corner one (start of lap two). I've seen it as well and he clearly wasn't "beside" JV in my estimation. Why the rush? Can't wait another corner and make it safely through ...

This is the same JPM who hit Kimi earlier in the lap Always the victim, never the guilty party

I agree!

JPM has to learn how to exercise patience. He had a much faster car and could of easily passed JV within a lap or two.

[J2NH]

JV missed the chicane and then re-entered the track on the LEFT side, which also happens to be the racing line. From what I saw on Speed, and I will admit the video isn't great, JPM then tried to pass JV on the left instead of ducking to the inside. In JPM's defense he may not have had sufficient room on the inside. I have no doubt that JV entering from the left of the track was eyes center and to the RIGHT looking for cars and probably never glanced back to his left. JV got served the penalty, but I can't help but think the correct move would have been for JPM to dive inside (right) of JV.

Hoping for a great last race for all of them this weekend. It would be nice to have some good clean fights on the track to carry us through the winter.

[Rene]

Originally posted by karlth


Montoya was essentially just driving past Villeneuve with both drivers going full throttle after Jacques made a mistake. I doubt it would even be classified as an overtaking move.

Are you saying drivers shouldn't drive past other cars?

This is not the first time JPM has tried to pass on the outside and went off, remember JPM and MS, same thing....although in this case JPM was even further back (having your front tire even with someones rear tire does not make you side by side), I guess it will take one or two such 'passes' for JPM to realize he probably should find another way past....

[Mat]

Originally posted by karlth
I am certain that Jacques saw him...

Thats very presumptuous, and arrogant of you.

[Marlowe]

Does anybody else think the better move would have been to pass on the inside rather than the outside?

[Speed Racer 99]

Originally posted by karlth


Montoya was essentially just driving past Villeneuve with both drivers going full throttle after Jacques made a mistake. I doubt it would even be classified as an overtaking move.

Are you saying drivers shouldn't drive past other cars?

Of coarse not. But until someone posts a video of JV/Monty going through the chicane into the last corner, we don't know if Monty was just trying to drive past JV or was actually trying to make a overtaking move. Anyways, I just feel that Monty should waited and slipstreamed JV on the main straight and pass at the first corner.

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by Mat

Thats very presumptuous, and arrogant of you.

Maybe, but I think karlth is right nonetheless in thinking that Jacques at least saw JPM.
Yesterday Jacques said this during the press conference: "I was a bit surprised when I saw Juan Pablo in the wall. When you're racing and you go through a corner, you only leave room if the guy's next to you. If the person is still behind you just take your line and you expect the other person to lift, because he hasn't won the corner. That's all. I was concentrating on the straight line and once I got on the straight, I looked in the mirrors to see where he was and I saw him in the wall so I was a bit surprised."
Whatever you think of either driver's actions, Jacques was certainly aware of JPM.

[Tombu]

I think the situation was much like Alonso passing Schumacher in 130R. If Schumacher wouldn't have lifted, it would have been ugly. I have a clip of it shot from the chopper right above them, they were side by side just before the corner and Alonso couldn't make the turn flat out on the outside. Just before the corner entry Michael clearly lifts, and Alonso shoots past to take the racing line.

The point is, the greatest of passes take guts and daring. You can't make em if you don't take the risk. And you should be able to trust the next guy not to ram you out. But this isn't a perfect world, and Juan himself isn't the fairest of the bunch when it comes to giving in some tarmac.

On the other hand, you could argue that it's a bit more understandable to take a riski pass at 130R against Schum at that point, than try to work something similar against clearly slower Sauber at chaotic lap 1. So yes, in hindsight, Montoya shouldn't have taken it, but I don't think it was that big of a mishap. It's racing after all, and it would have been a good passing had Villeneuve backed off just a bit.

Let's go to China I'll say.

edit: I think that what scheivlak posted above is quite essential. The Fault'o'meter™ depends heavily upon whether Montoya was right beside Jaq or a little behind. If he was behind, it was rather stupid move. If he was right on his side, Jaq should have given more space. Hmm, sounds like I just made all my above ramblings a bit daft there.

[Tomecek]

Originally posted by Cosmograph


No .. Montoya was reckless. He clearly had a much superior car and could have possibly taken JV at corner one (start of lap two). I've seen it as well and he clearly wasn't "beside" JV in my estimation. Why the rush? Can't wait another corner and make it safely through ...

This is the same JPM who hit Kimi earlier in the lap Always the victim, never the guilty party

You probably were sitting in formula one car in the past ;)

I mean it's difficult to judge what was the situation. He went for place on Villeneuve's left hand side because he was slower and returning to track after cutting a chicane and suddenly there was not any. How much he could or couldn't do with that is a quesiton.

[Tomecek]

Originally posted by Cosmograph
This is the same JPM who hit Kimi earlier in the lap

You saw it? They touched. You don't know who hit who...

[Tomecek]

Originally posted by Cosmograph
BTW, can a McLaren driver every make a mistake in your opinion ;)

In my opinion, Montoya did many mistakes this season. And as long as I admit this particular case is disputatious am not so sure of Montoya's fault. Villeneuve was supposed to give room... yet he even didn't mention on press conference he was off track.

[Tombu]

Originally posted by Tomecek
You saw it? They touched. You don't know who hit who...

Well, it really sounds like Monty hit Kimi's rear tyres, as he went sideways as a result. But you're right, not much to be said as there's no footage (at least I haven't seen any).

[Tomecek]

Originally posted by Marlowe
Does anybody else think the better move would have been to pass on the inside rather than the outside?

It's always difficult to say from in front of TV Just go to the racing track, I am always shocked how on track two formula one cars can be next of each other

[Bolido]

Originally posted by fastlegs


I agree!

JPM has to learn how to exercise patience. He had a much faster car and could of easily passed JV within a lap or two.

It is always easier to analyze moments knowing the results that at the moment itself. Monza has been a track considered very easy for overtaking. However, Kimi -the fastest driver of this season- was stuck behind JV during several laps. In fact, he had to wait JV to pit to overtake him. Why was JPM going to think that in Suzuka -where overtaking is almost impossible with today's cars- he could overtake JV easily later?...
Please, JPM tried to take his chance early. That's it!
I'm almost sure that several drivers -MS, FA, and JPM himself- made very interesting and risky overtakings on that lap, but unfortunately, the TV director preferred to follow Sato, and we lost the oportunity to see Formula 1 in its more sublime expression.

[Ricardo F1]

Originally posted by Tomecek
You saw it? They touched. You don't know who hit who...

I think you can read their comments and know exactly who hit who.

As for the incident ; I simply think JV didn't see JPM, simple as that. And yes, JPM would have easily passed Villeneuve on the start/finish straight into turn one . . . . if it had been for 5th or 6th he probably would have, lying where he was with Fisichella in a Renault blasting around at the front (or near the front) my guess if JPM's attitude was to do everything to get forward as fast as possible before the likes of Fisi were out of sight.

[andrimitum]

JPM admited in the PC that he was not alongside JV, but behind and out of his field of vision.

Not in those words but when JV said that alongside was wheel to wheel otherwise he would not see him as he (JV) was looking right. JPM after claiming he was alongside admited that his wheels were behind JV, and made the excuse that he did not want to touch JV's wheels. (Which may be true but confirms that he was not more than nosecone to driver postion alongside.)

It also must be pointed out that JPM tried to pass on the outside on a corner where the racing line sweeps to the outside.

On Alonso's pass on MS he was well alongside before the racing line sweeps to the outside of that particular corner so was never in any danger.

Overoptimistic on JPM's part but in no way JV's fault.

[Ricardo F1]

Originally posted by andrimitum
JPM admited in the PC that he was not alongside JV, but behind and out of his field of vision.

Removing rear view mirrors is against the rules I believe.

[marcotulio]

it kinda reminds me of JV X NK at spa, jacques sticks to his racing line and to find a way past is up to the other guy, and its still worst in this case ´cause he never saw monty there.
juan pablo was wreckless, and villeneuve is not button, he was never going to complete such an idiotic move.

[andrimitum]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1

Removing rear view mirrors is against the rules I believe.

Normally when I am taking a corner, especially at white knuckle speeds I focus on the apex not my mirrors. I check them before and after. that is why alongside means alongside not just sneaking a wheel outside.

If JPM had tried on the inside he would have more of a case as the drivers head is already turned that way and he shouuld see the car in the mirrors or at least see the nose as it came past his rear wheels but cmon I don't think even JV is enough of a walleye to see a car 130 degress from his field of vision, on the outside.

[marcotulio]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1

Removing rear view mirrors is against the rules I believe.

well we shoult try putting a mirror in front of you, ass-face!

[marcotulio]

just look @ pics 2 and 4, kimi´s car follows the same line as villeneuve. there´s not more to add...

[jb_128]

Here's the vid:

http://rapidshare.de...motoya.avi.html

After reading Jacque's comments I think that the problem is just that there are no rules that tell you what you are allowed to do and what you are not.

The accident didn't happen because Jacques was being a bully but because he had a different oppinion about the situation than Montoya. Montoya thought he was essentially driving past a slower car on a straight, Jacques thought he had the right to his usual line through a corner because he was slightly ahead.

Drivers will never agree so the FIA has to decide which opinion is correct and they did. Looking at the vid I think that Kimi's camera shows quite clearly that the part of the track in question is more straight than corner. But then again there are drivers (MS) that have the opinion that they would have been allowed to do what Jacques did even if it was on a real straight.

[andrimitum]

That was uncalled for [marcotulio]


I like your pictures though thank you. the second picture looks like the one where JPM is the most alongside.

If I draw a straight line along the front of his spoiler it intersects JV's car at the windscreen.

Which means the furthest alongside he was was his nosecone leve with JV's steering wheel.

Very Poor judgement on the outside of a corner where the outside is the racing line.

[karlth]

Originally posted by [marcotulio]
it kinda reminds me of JV X NK at spa, jacques sticks to his racing line and to find a way past is up to the other guy, and its still worst in this case ´cause he never saw monty there.
juan pablo was wreckless, and villeneuve is not button, he was never going to complete such an idiotic move.

Thanks for posting those pictures.

Two things really:

1. Montoya was alongside Villeneuve so Jacques' comment that he didn't see him is a bit silly. Of course he did.
2. Villeneuve is closer to the edge of the road than Raikkonen. Compare the 3rd and 4th pictures and the position of Villeneuve and Raikkonen based on the tyre marks. Villeneuve was trying to defend his line.

[marcotulio]

thanx mate!

when i first saw these pics, i thought:

- where the hell is montoya going???

[Tomecek]

Thanks for pictures, they say it all honestly...

[karlth]

Originally posted by jb_128
Here's the vid:

http://rapidshare.de...motoya.avi.html

After reading Jacque's comments I think that the problem is just that there are no rules that tell you what you are allowed to do and what you are not.

The accident didn't happen because Jacques was being a bully but because he had a different oppinion about the situation than Montoya. Montoya thought he was essentially driving past a slower car on a straight, Jacques thought he had the right to his usual line through a corner because he was slightly ahead.

Drivers will never agree so the FIA has to decide which opinion is correct and they did. Looking at the vid I think that Kimi's camera shows quite clearly that the part of the track in question is more straight than corner. But then again there are drivers (MS) that have the opinion that they would have been allowed to do what Jacques did even if it was on a real straight.

I agree.

This really is just something that was bound to happen when two highly aggressive drivers fight for the same piece of tarmac.

I don't really blame Villeneuve although I think he was more at fault.

[marcotulio]

Originally posted by karlth


Thanks for posting those pictures.

Two things really:

1. Montoya was alongside Villeneuve so Jacques' comment that he didn't see him is a bit silly. Of course he did.
2. Villeneuve is closer to the edge of the road than Raikkonen. Compare the 3rd and 4th pictures and the position of Villeneuve and Raikkonen based on the tyre marks. Villeneuve was trying to defend his line.

let´s supose jacques saw montoya, does it change the questions about juan pablo´s poor judgement????

[Ricardo F1]

Originally posted by [marcotulio]
just look @ pics 2 and 4, kimi´s car follows the same line as villeneuve. there´s not more to add...

Uh dipshit, Kimi doesn't have another car alongside him.

[Ricardo F1]

Originally posted by [marcotulio]



let´s supose jacques saw montoya, does it change the questions about juan pablo´s poor judgement????

Uh yes, if Jacques had seen Montoya I honestly don't think he'd have driven him off the road.

[Tomecek]

Originally posted by [marcotulio]



let´s supose jacques saw montoya, does it change the questions about juan pablo´s poor judgement????

It doesn't change this particular question but just notice how far is Villeneuve from track white line on picture two and three...

Then the question whether he saw him or not becomes irrelevant because in both cases Villeneuve was dangerous...