56 replies to this topic

[chak]

i was just watching the A1 race just now, and even though there was alot of overtaking, and plenty of drama in the pitlanes, it just wasn't as exciting as a decent F1 race. I thought about it for a while and realised why.

When malaysia (my home team) went into the pits, and a guy was stuck changing the tire for a full 30 seconds... i was thinking "damn, we suck"... and then the Germans came in and did the exact same thing, resulting in both falling way back on the grids. Later on, I saw plenty of over-taking amongst the cars, although the amount of lock-ups would have made Kimi's error at the Nurburgring seem almost commonplace.

thing is, F1 is all about perfection. Near-perfection is what gets you in, perfection is what takes you to the top. I daresay, the margin for error in F1 is smaller than any other sport i can think off. A wing or screw out of place, a driver with tummy problems, a member of the pit crew forgetting his tools - it's all knife-edge stuff, and it's a marvel to behold.

I guess the only problem is that we've been so used to perfection that we're no longer amazed by it, so most races seem merely processional. Go watch A1 during the winter, and i think, like me, you'll be waiting in quivering anticipation for the 2006 F1 season.

[carbonfibre]

I was thinking the same (malaysia sucks) when Yoong put his car in the back of team Holland.

Now serious: when i switch between A1 and F1 the first thing i see is the enormous speed difference. And A1 GP's pitstops are just a joke.

[Tomecek]

hehe, you indeed read that A1 is not F1's competitor, did you?

[BorderReiver]

Originally posted by chak
i was just watching the A1 race just now, and even though there was alot of overtaking, and plenty of drama in the pitlanes, it just wasn't as exciting as a decent F1 race. I thought about it for a while and realised why.

When malaysia (my home team) went into the pits, and a guy was stuck changing the tire for a full 30 seconds... i was thinking "damn, we suck"... and then the Germans came in and did the exact same thing, resulting in both falling way back on the grids. Later on, I saw plenty of over-taking amongst the cars, although the amount of lock-ups would have made Kimi's error at the Nurburgring seem almost commonplace.

thing is, F1 is all about perfection. Near-perfection is what gets you in, perfection is what takes you to the top. I daresay, the margin for error in F1 is smaller than any other sport i can think off. A wing or screw out of place, a driver with tummy problems, a member of the pit crew forgetting his tools - it's all knife-edge stuff, and it's a marvel to behold.

I guess the only problem is that we've been so used to perfection that we're no longer amazed by it, so most races seem merely processional. Go watch A1 during the winter, and i think, like me, you'll be waiting in quivering anticipation for the 2006 F1 season.

F1 is also an arena where the cars eradicate most serious driver errors. A1GP isn't. Draw your own conclusions as to which is more of a "drivers formula".

[Tomecek]

F1 is about who can built the best possible machine and who can drive them, A1 is about same machines and the best possible entertainment from racing point of veiw...

[Ross Stonefeld]

F1.

[PhilKerr]

No point trying to compare the 2 series its like comparing apples with oranges

Just be glad we got some motorsport to watch this winter

[SundayLunch]

A1 Grand Prix is hella slow. Might as well be watching a few fellas straddle round the local go-kart circuit with equal karts...

[BorderReiver]

Originally posted by SundayLunch
A1 Grand Prix is hella slow. Might as well be watching a few fellas straddle round the local go-kart circuit with equal karts...

If you define 180mph as slow . . .

Watch any Touring cars at all?

[SundayLunch]

If you define 180mph as slow . . .

Aren't A1 cars slower than GP2 cars? And that is a support race to F1...

[BorderReiver]

Originally posted by SundayLunch


Aren't A1 cars slower than GP2 cars? And that is a support race to F1...

Ahh well, we'll strap you into a 180mph Single Seater and shove you out at the Lautzitring. You won't be able to roll your eyes at that speed. Assuming you can keep it off the wall ;).

[HYMS]

Originally posted by PhilKerr
No point trying to compare the 2 series its like comparing apples with oranges

Just be glad we got some motorsport to watch this winter

Yep, we have something to watch over the next 6 months instead of just reading on what the F1 team being doing in that period.....

[HP]

Originally posted by BorderReiver


F1 is also an arena where the cars eradicate most serious driver errors. A1GP isn't. Draw your own conclusions as to which is more of a "drivers formula".

Pitstops for so many teams gone wrong (not even a needed one), at least one team got additionally a drive through, because one mechanic was trying to help another one, cars stranded on track and the SC car needs several laps to collect the field, drivers crashing into others like mad car driver continueing on dissassembling his car over the track, etc... A1 a "drivers formula"? Whatever.

[Corners]

Originally posted by carbonfibre
I was thinking the same (malaysia sucks) when Yoong put his car in the back of team Holland.

Now serious: when i switch between A1 and F1 the first thing i see is the enormous speed difference. And A1 GP's pitstops are just a joke.

I didn't think the 80's was a joke and there's not much difference in speed, in fact I'd say the drivers got very exhuasted driving those things in the eighties.
After 2 races I don't think anybody has the right to compare A1 to F1, 2 races is a bit difference to 50 odd years. At last we've got some attempts to give us the racing we want, it doesn't matter if A1 fails or excels its the fact that people are willing to give us alternatives. Eventually F1 will feel insecure enough to finally let the fans be more important to internal egos.
As long as they dont penalise performance.

[Dudley]

Does no-one remember how bad the first GP2 round was?

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by BorderReiver


F1 is also an arena where the cars eradicate most serious driver errors. A1GP isn't. Draw your own conclusions as to which is more of a "drivers formula".

"The cars eradicate most serious driver errors"
Reminds me of dan2k's "Juan wasn't at fault, it was his car"

Put the likes of Alex Yoong in a F1 car and you'll see that it's a driver formula as well or perhaps even more.
A1GP looks a drivers formula because of the enormous difference in ability. Put 20 good F1 drivers in A1GP cars and it's a procession decided by pit stop strategy.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by Dudley
Does no-one remember how bad the first GP2 round was?

The cars were completely unreliable, but the teams and drivers have been topclass all year long.

[chak]

sometimes i wonder whether anybody gets the point.

I'm just saying that we're no longer marvelled by the perfection of F1. it isn't really an A1-bashing thread.

but hey... to each his own... peace.

[Dudley]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld


The cars were completely unreliable, but the teams and drivers have been topclass all year long.

I don't know, Matteus Lauda is in about the same place in both series on average. And no-one except a GP2 driver has won a race in A1.,

[scheivlak]

Originally posted by Dudley


I don't know, Matteus Lauda is in about the same place in both series on average. And no-one except a GP2 driver has won a race in A1.,

Lauda is a backmarker in GP2 and almost midfield in A1GP. And the other GP2 guys are the class of the field in A1GP!

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by scheivlak

"The cars eradicate most serious driver errors"

Seriously... can't you appreciate that the current F1 does that?

And again I agree with BR; A1GP has seemingly exposed some drivers - previously regarded as talented - to perhaps be less gifted than first thought.

Again, it's down to point number one...

[djellison]

I agree with the first poster to some extent - I was really looking forward to A1GP - it sounded like it had all the right ingredients, but then once it started, it was just

"meh"

The cars almost look comical over the bumps and just nothing really very exciting to be honest.

It's made me appreciative for what F1 is - the very best.

Doug

[skinnylizard]

A1 is a winter filler series. never meant to be a competitor to F1. besides when u watch it (A1) u dont get the here come the big boys feeling

[kNt]

I think to much perfection makes it hard to appreciate the perfection.

Now in formula1 there are 9 to 10 teams that get the reliability stuff right, most importantly the Teams that are on sped are very reliable... ..so if everybody can do it it seems quite easy.

[Corners]

Give the series some support they've had 2 bloody races ! There's a lot of effort gone into it and there's a lot of enthusiasm amongst drivers and fans there is no reason to pick holes unless you can't help yourself picking holes in everything.

[djellison]

"there's a lot of enthusiasm amongst drivers and fans"

http://www.autosport...cle.aspx?id=306

" I later found out that A1 reported a race-day attendance of 34,000. It barely looked like half that. And if it weren't for the Dutch, there wouldn't have been anyone there at all..."

I'm a motorsport fan. I find A1GP rather unexciting. That's what I think of it. I cant magically make it more appealing to myself by ''giving it a chance". No. I will not give it a chance. I watched two weekends of it, and it's, to be honest, dull and a bit of a farce. I'd rather go and mow instead of watch the Estoril race.


"never meant to be a competitor to F1"

But during that overlap, it is. It was a mistake to schedule any A1GP races before the end of the F1 season imho. Give people a few weeks to get motorsport-hungry after the last F1 race, then pack in the A1GP season. What we've had here is direct comparison, rightly or wrongly, and it's to the detriment of A1GP.


Doug

[Pilla]

It seems like West Surrey Racing is the only team that can do a pitstop properly, you would think that everyone would practice; the fact that most teams have problems would meen that there is a tremendous amount to gain from a quick one.

Now that F1 is on holiday I can finally watch an A1 race properly. They should have held off untill now for their first race.

[Mat]

Just spoke to a on old friend. He is what you would consider, the 'average' person, middle class, etc. He likes his motorsport and will watch V8's and F1 when he can. We were talking about the Bathurst 1000, and I mentioned I was going to Eastern Creek for the A1. He told me had watched the two previous rounds of A1 and thought it was fantastic. He enjoyed everything about it, from the pit stops, to the two race format, to the racing. He thought it was fantastic and even found it more enjoyable than F1.

So make of that what you will.

[philhitchings]

I agree with you Mat. At Brands there were a lot of people who came cos of the hype but left saying how much they had enjoyed it, and no they weren't all sitting at Paddock watching the rollover either.

Just Yesterday someone at work asked me if I'd been, and when I told them yes, they got really excited and said that it had been their first trip to a race (having been a TV racing fan for many years) and how good it was and how they might start going to more races as a result.


I think some people here are just too quick to look for negatives. this thread if started by someone else could easily have been A1GP reminds me in some ways of how I used to appreciate F1

[Mat]

agree. Because of all the hype, people expect everything to work straight away. Its crazy, apparantly you need to have 50+ years of history before your allowed to have a **** race.

[SeanValen]

Originally posted by Mat
agree. Because of all the hype, people expect everything to work straight away. Its crazy, apparantly you need to have 50+ years of history before your allowed to have a **** race.

Personally brands hatch was good, the 2nd race wasn't, but it's early days, A1 has alot of room for improvement.


But it still lacks a big driver name, I don't feel like rooting for a country, I don't feel like rooting for any of the cars, there's just no Senna or Schumacher type driver in there, until there is, it will always lack the big driver element.

Someone showing the way etc. Get MS to race for germany in 2009, and watch A1 become a force to be reckoned with. Wet races and MS in the rain, all you need.

[Frederick]

I caught a 1 hour highlights package of the Lausitzring round about a week after it was run
first time i have seen A1

my impressions:

A1 is to Motorsport as the Eurovision song contest is to the music industry
and the commentary sounds the same...........Lame

and what's with the pitstop coverage? a full minute watching a mechanic trying to free a wheel nut from a wrench?
how about showing the race

and for gods sake decide if its a country or a driver that I'm supposed to be following, the switching between names and countries had me totally confused.......
mind you that's not hard to do at 1.00AM which is when it was shown

maybe I was just overtired but I went to bed thinking "Damn, that's an hour of my life wasted"

[philhitchings]

you were over tired it wasn't wasted ;)

Sean I take your point about name drivers. people were buzzing around the likes of Jos and Piquet and Lauda and Kerr, but what I noticed was the way people like Yoong was walking up the paddock with a box of team shirts on Friday, the way Scott Speed was just so approachable all weekend. This series is about racing without all the personalities of the like of F1 and WSB (actually Bike Racers are much less up them selves than Car Racers!). It is approachable it IS the Nation Vs Nation, not driver Vs Driver. If MS were to come in to the sport it would taint the ideal IMO lets stick with the type of driver we have not mega stars. Choose the latter and then it will turn into a personality contest as well as a nation V contest

[SeanValen]

Originally posted by philhitchings
you were over tired it wasn't wasted ;)

Sean I take your point about name drivers. people were buzzing around the likes of Jos and Piquet and Lauda and Kerr, but what I noticed was the way people like Yoong was walking up the paddock with a box of team shirts on Friday, the way Scott Speed was just so approachable all weekend. This series is about racing without all the personalities of the like of F1 and WSB (actually Bike Racers are much less up them selves than Car Racers!). It is approachable it IS the Nation Vs Nation, not driver Vs Driver. If MS were to come in to the sport it would taint the ideal IMO lets stick with the type of driver we have not mega stars. Choose the latter and then it will turn into a personality contest as well as a nation V contest

Acceptable points, your reptutation proceeds you.

A1 isn't f1, I see it being Roger Moore-more tongue and cheek-crowd pleaser, while formula one is Sean Connery and Timothy Dalton-the colder and ruthless side of the sport, shoot fans first, change f1 rules later etc.




A1:





F1:









And the comprimise:

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by philhitchings

...actually Bike Racers are much less up them selves than Car Racers!

And by a very big margin!

Your comments reflect exactly what my colleagues said about Brands; a really nice, relaxed, almost 'back in the day' ambience about the place, which was very well received.

That, however, was race one at Brands - and in the bosom of the sport. The reports I've had back from Germany have been very different indeed...

[SeanValen]

Originally posted by Twin Window
And by a very big margin!

Your comments reflect exactly what my colleagues said about Brands; a really nice, relaxed, almost 'back in the day' ambience about the place, which was very well received.

That, however, was race one at Brands - and in the bosom of the sport... the reports I've had back from Germany have been very different indeed...

That's what worried me, germany was bad.

Brands was better.

Germany is after Schumacher, England likes motorsport more, even Schumi said at Silverstone this year, the true motorsport fans are at England.

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by SeanValen

Brands was better.

In fairness, it is a circuit which is far more likely to provide on-track spectacle than Lausitz.

Maybe Estoril will be more like Brands?

(But do I look like I'm bovvered? )

[philhitchings]

Estoril should be good if the people turn up to watch

[Twin Window]

Even if they don't show (and I suspect they might not), it should be better show than the last round don't you think? On a better circuit, and all...

[SeanValen]

Originally posted by philhitchings
Estoril should be good if the people turn up to watch

That is a good track.

Back in my old PC GP2 days, totally on the edge, what a set up challenge.

[HP]

Hope Estoril is better, after all Lola claims they fixed the problems with the tyre wheel-nut and axles. Apparently they didn't tried too many pit-stops with tyre change during testing.


As to the attendance. I'm not sure if the attendance turns out low in the majority of races, A1 will be a commercial success and will bring in enough money. If it doesn't, how long willl the series last?

[black magic]

well I think chak's pt is very valid.

no one is decrying A1 but in comparison the cars look nothing near as on the edge as f1 and frankly it does look a little like amateur hour in comparison.

and no I wouldn't be any good in an Ai car either but doesn't make my or chak's pt less valid.

and can I say again driver aids only make the cars easier to drive if you want to go at the same speeds as when there is no driver aids. what happens in f1 though is driver aids merely enable the driver to find a new limit, quicker than without the aids. hence we still see drivers making errors and in some ways even more errors because they are searching for that limit at which the traction control gives up. it staggers that every time some ex f1 driver drones on about this issue they fail to see this fundamental point. there is an implication that any tom could drive an f1 car now and be quick which is clearly nonesense.

what we have are driver aids enabling the greatest cornering speeds ever seen, despite loss of down force, despite grooved tyres(which have better grip now than the old slicks) etc.

[repcobrabham]

i have no problem at all with the country v country format: gives a greater sense of the team winning, and the driver is still the one who gets on the podium. but then us aussies express our patriotism through sport, so i suppose it's a cultural thing.

i plan to be at eastern creek for the aussie round, will hopefully be catching up with any other atlasers in attendance for a good old sporting day in the sun. i think it's going to be like the SCG hill in the 1970s: terry-towelling hats, zinc cream, thongs, eskies. maybe an impromptu wet t-shirt contest, a run of the flaming arseholes, a celebration of the ocker within. as big kev said before he went bankrupt: i'm excited!

[philhitchings]

Is that National Pride or just a very good reason to indulge?

[repcobrabham]

those reasons aren't mutually exclusive down here, cobber!

[philhitchings]

I like that

[chak]

i think some of you still don't get it. i'm not against A1, i already said that its full of the things we THINK we need in F1, like less driver aids, more overtaking, tyre changes.

guys, A1 has it all.

But i still came away appreciating F1 in its current state even more. treat this more as a caution.

be careful what you ask for.

[angst]

Originally posted by chak
i think some of you still don't get it. i'm not against A1, i already said that its full of the things we THINK we need in F1, like less driver aids, more overtaking, tyre changes.

guys, A1 has it all.

But i still came away appreciating F1 in its current state even more. treat this more as a caution.

be careful what you ask for.

But I don't think anybody is asking for anyhting like A1 as a replacement for F1. Sure alot of us would like to see the back of TC (and electronic diffs etc. ), but I certainly don't want the cars to be the same, or to have such a wide range of driving talent. I want to see interesting engineering in F1, but with the driver far more in control of what the car does, and I want to see the best drivers.

Comparing A1 with a potential F1 sans driving aids as some sort of caution really is quite weak, IMO.

[Mat]

Originally posted by chak
i think some of you still don't get it. i'm not against A1, i already said that its full of the things we THINK we need in F1, like less driver aids, more overtaking, tyre changes.

guys, A1 has it all.

But i still came away appreciating F1 in its current state even more. treat this more as a caution.

be careful what you ask for.

Sorry, but im not watching A1 because of what i think we need in F1. I watching it, in the hope that it will be an exciting 'winter series' with close racing, and plenty of young talent driving powerful exciting cars. Simple as that.

[philhitchings]

sounds about right to me