17 replies to this topic

[Indian Chief]

I watched almost every race of the German Touring Car championship in 1997. It had some superb racing with Jo Winkelhock and Ceccoto in their BMWs taking the fight to Aiello and his superior Peugeot. The racing was fantastic and the crowds seemed to be really huge, particularly, at the street circuit (whose name I can't recall right now).

It seems incredible that such an interesting and popular series died so suddenly. Any ideas of why this happened?

[Wishbone]

Maybe the same as British touring cars, the big manufacturers pulled out leaving the remaining teams having to race three cars and the introduction of a ballast system to create 'better' racing.

Does anyone know how many factory teams are in the BTCC or the German equivalent?

[Psychoman]

Ford, Vauxhall, Honda, and I think the rest are privateers...

[FredF1]

Just goes to show the dangers to a series when several manufacturers pull out at once. Same thing brought an end to DTM.

[Nomad]

The series get too expensive for the manufacturers in relation to the publicity they get from them.
The German DTM has been re-invented and I watched a race on TV last night, it's been going all season, FredF1 where have you been.

[Todd]

These series lose their relavence through one of two ways. Either the rules allow funny cars, like the C-Class Mercedes that had more technology than any F1 car ever dreamed about, or they norm the performance to create competition. When the rules focus on allowing the manufacturers to make inferior cars competitive with cars that are better in production form, than the team with the most cash will win. Either way makes it too expensive to be worthwhile, and the new German series is likely to fail for the first reason. The heyday of DTM, for me, was when they ran strict Group A regulations. If you wanted to win, than it was your job as a manufacturer to build a production car that fit the rules and was competitive. This is the sort of rule that created the modern rally monsters like the Subaru WRX and Lancia Delta Integale. It is also the reason that the greatest touring car of them all was built, the '87-'91 E30 M3.

[FredF1]

Nomad, I didn't realise it was on TV. Eurosport aren't showing it are they? How will it fit into their busy schedule of tennis and pointless pre-season friendlies? Not to mention hopeless never-was' boxing.
I couldn't give a monkey's for BTCC anymore - I lost interest with those god-awful mandatory pit stops. Now where else have I seen those before......?

[Brent]

QUOTE by Todd.

"If you wanted to win, than it was your job as a manufacturer to build a production car that fit the rules and was competitive. This is the sort of rule that created the modern rally monsters like the Subaru WRX and Lancia Delta Integale."

You forgot the HSV Holden Commodore.

Manufactures pulling out of championships such as the BTTC and the German competition after they have won, sucks. F1 could face the same situation in a few years time. Ford wins and then pulls out?! Chevrolet wins and then quits Kinda leaves the opposition deflated.

edit/ opps sorry were you just talking about rally cars? I thought we were talking about the BTTC/GTTC?

[Todd]

Originally posted by Brent
You forgot the HSV Holden Commodore.

Sounds like the name of a vacuum cleaner to me.;)

[Ross Stonefeld]

Psychoman, Vauxhall Honda and Ford are factory teams, but run by specialists. Its like uhm...Bar-Honda or Mclaren-Mercedes.


West Surrey Racing-Honda
Triple Eight Vauxhall
Prodrive Ford

in 99 it was Ray Mallock Engineering Nissan
TWR Volvo
Williams Renault

but they have catchy names like Ford Team Mondeo, Redstone Team Honda, etc.

Matt Neal and Colin Blair (until he dropped out) where the only indy teams.

Ross Stonefeld
Aztec Group Motorsport

[Gil Bouffard]

The old DTM was fast, colorful and had some of the best drivers in the world racing them. Think about it. Jacques Lafitte, Keke Rosberg, Hans Stuck, Klaus Ludwig, Winkelhock.

The cars? Opel, Mercedes, BMW, Audi and the rest. Even saw a Mustang race in the DTM. They raced everywhere.

The "new," DTM is a national series featuring Audi, Mercedes and Opel. The cars look fantastic and the drivers are once again the best.

Visit http://www.dtm.de/index.htm to see more. Sorry, the site is in German. At least I can read it.

Gil

[Alfisti]

Originally posted by Brent

You forgot the HSV Holden Commodore.

You aren't seriously puting HSV in that category sre you???? Holden are living in 1962 with pushrod engines and dinosaur suspension on a car that is screwed together VERY poorly... not to mention the yobbo look the cars have.

BTW... you all forgot the might Alfa in the DTM series that wa so dominant it was given a ridiculous weight penatly the bext year! That thing was as close to an F1 car that tin tops have ever come. Naturally aspirated 2.5 litre V6... over 400HP... revvedto 13,000Rpm. Or was that the ITC???

[Todd]

Alfisti,

That isn't completely fair to Holden. I thought the Commodore has/had an Opel Senator chassis? That would mean that it had technology soundly based in the '80s. The combination of a German chassis and an American engine is pretty tempting, it just doesn't happen that often, because the Germans tend to build better engines in the first place.

[OssieFan]

Originally posted by Todd
The combination of a German chassis and an American engine is pretty tempting, it just doesn't happen that often, because the Germans tend to build better engines in the first place.

Why is it that they call the V8 series in Australia 'The true blue all Aussie touring car category' ??? More like a reason for pissheads to get together.

[Alfisti]

Is it just me or do the V8's look real slow? They are somethi g special at Bathurst but apart from that the regular tracks make them look seriously dull. They desperately need to rev another three grand to sound better.

I've said it before... just imagine F1 at Bathurt... greatest sight in motorsport history imho.

[Silver Arrow]

Originally posted by Alfisti
Is it just me or do the V8's look real slow?

Yeah, me too. Looks like a big family sedan with a spoiler on the back. And the name, Holden Special Vehicle sounds pretty dumb.

[aross]

Nobody's really asnwered the question: Money.
While F1 was busy banning active suspensions, limited technology and seeing the writing on the, the DTM cars kept adding technology and cost. In the end they were more technologically advanced than an F1 car. That's not hyperbola, that's a fact.
Of course, none of this would have been a problem if it had still accomplished the sales goals of the manuf, but once the bean counters came out of the wooedworkd when car sales faltered, the DTM in its then-current form was done for. The same factors are being faced by the BTTC: When the cars get too far from production, and too expensive, eventually the guys who build the roadgoing ones, and the fans, don't see the connection and stop getting all warm and fuzzy about the brands.
Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday. When that stops happening, why should they spend the money?

[Todd]

Ausies,

On Speedvision, I saw an Australian racing series called "Commodore Cup." The cars had a very early-'80s look to them, and it seems to be a spec series. What sort of engine and rear suspension are they running? How old are the cars?