180 replies to this topic

[RaymondMays]

A new qualifying format has been agreed by the F1 Commission, amongst other things.

Session one - 15 minutes - Slowest five cars eliminated
Session two - 15 minutes - Slowest five cars eliminated
Session three - 20 minutes - Top ten grid slots decided

Question What happens when/if there are 24 cars on the grid, as is rumoured?

[Arrow]

Still not real qualifying because its not on low fuel and with a single lap set up. Still crap but just a little less so because its less of a crapshoot.

[Blackdog]

Originally posted by RaymondMays
A new qualifying format has been agreed by the F1 Commission, amongst other things.

Session one - 15 minutes - Slowest five cars eliminated
Session two - 15 minutes - Slowest five cars eliminated
Session three - 20 minutes - Top ten grid slots decided

Question What happens when/if there are 24 cars on the grid, as is rumoured?

Either six eliminated in sessions 1 and 2, then top 12 slots decided in session 3 - or seven in the first two sessions followed by top ten shootout.

A more important question is - 'will it provide a better spectacle than the old formats?'

[Al.]

Originally posted by Blackdog



Either six eliminated in sessions 1 and 2, then top 12 slots decided in session 3 - or seven in the first two sessions followed by top ten shootout.

A more important question is - 'will it provide a better spectacle than the old formats?'

As long as laps are not limited in the last session, otherwise you will have 10 cars sitting waiting for 15 minutes until they go and set a time in the last 5. That said I guess they are limited in that fuel in the final session is carried into the race.

Edit: Just read the details. They start the last 20 minutes with race fuel. The cars are weighed and then they can run as many laps as they like and at the end they are topped back up with fuel to what they weighed at the start.

Thus the more laps you do in the last 20 minute session, the lighter your car will be for a last minute switch to new tyres and a shot at a quick time.

[VresiBerba]

Originally posted by Blackdog
A more important question is - 'will it provide a better spectacle than the old formats?'

If the races are good, who really gives a ****.

[Arrow]

Originally posted by VresiBerba

If the races are good, who really gives a ****.

Its an important part of a racing weekend. It used to be a great spectacle. Its already been proven that qualifying invariably does not effect the races, unless its a total freak lottery and even then its quite rare that a good race occurs. It usually just kills them off.

[MortenF1]

I would've been OK with it, had it been on low fuel. Now it's just the same shite; we've no clue about who's quick and who's not, till Sunday afternoon!

...I'm also not sure if I like tyre-changes being reintroduced. There's just too much back and forth. I think it belongs in F1, but it gets laughable, and a little suspicious when they re-introduce it right away.

[carbonfibre]

Originally posted by race addicted
I would've been OK with it, had it been on low fuel. Now it's just the same shite; we've no clue about who's quick and who's not, till Sunday afternoon!

Yep it's still the same thing only with another package around it.

I just can't understand why the FIA doesnt want too go back to low fuel quali. It was far more entertaining and you didnt have too worry about strategy's etc.

[VresiBerba]

Originally posted by carbonfibre
I just can't understand why the FIA doesnt want too go back to low fuel quali.

It was proposed months ago, but just like always, teams can't agree on anything. This was a compromise made because teams would probably never agree to a 'no fuel' format since the cars have already been designed. This is as much of a fault of the teams as it is the fault of the FIA, just take it for what it is; an improvement.

[VresiBerba]

Originally posted by race addicted
Now it's just the same shite; we've no clue about who's quick and who's not, till Sunday afternoon!

I have to say that's an incredible difficult attitude to comprehend. Would you rather see who's quicker on Saturday than on Sunday? Have the concept of racing been so overlooked during the 'old' format that the qualifying simply was the highlight of the weekend?

Frankly I don't pay that much attention to the qualifying [format] at all, the positions however are interesting to see. Other than that, the race on Sunday is what I'm looking forward to.

[MortenF1]

Originally posted by VresiBerba

I have to say that's an incredible difficult attitude to comprehend. Would you rather see who's quicker on Saturday than on Sunday? Have the concept of racing been so overlooked during the 'old' format that the qualifying simply was the highlight of the weekend?

Frankly I don't pay that much attention to the qualifying [format] at all, the positions however are interesting to see. Other than that, the race on Sunday is what I'm looking forward to.

Why on earth would that be the only viewpoint?! That's among the most arrogant things I've read here. I never thought that qualifying was the highlight of the weekend, but it was so damn exciting to see how they went all balls-out, full-tilt trying to gain another tenth on their main competitor(actually, on some weekends it was the highlight, if the race was dull, now though, we risk getting TWO dull days of F1...). The real qualifying format, multi-laps and on fumes, gave you a much better idea about who really had the speed. Now, it's just a circus and a shamble and you can't get excited about any of the laps in the way you used to, 'cause you've really no idea excactly how good that lap was. It greatly amputates Saturday for me.

[jokuvaan]

With this latest system, there can still be more mixed grid because anything can happen always when cars go to track.

[coyoteBR]

Hm, adapt to new rules, develop a car for the new change-able tires, for the new fuel-wasting qualies, for the new V-8 engines, that go against everything they used to know in f-1 for the past seasons, and throw everything away in 2007 to receive the dual wings, slicks, ...


Could someone explain when the cheaper, more fair F1 with oportunities for privateers will begin, exactly?

[chris_canuk]

I still wanna know how they think they're going to run 20 or more cars in 15 minutes.

[jokuvaan]

Everybody goes to the track same time.

[Celloman]

Well, it's yet hard to say how this is going to work.
The thing I'm not too happy about is the first half of the quali. It will still be quite boring to watch the 5 worst cars being eliminated (even though minardi/jordan with new names might be a little better).
The new tire changing rule is another pretty ugly thing, but that's another story.

[VresiBerba]

Originally posted by race addicted
Why on earth would that be the only viewpoint?! That's among the most arrogant things I've read here.

Don't be silly, I never said that MY viewpoint was the right one or that you were in anyway wrong. I said that I find it hard to understand why a (pointless) qualification would be so damn interesting, and that it would be such a loss that we can only find out who's quickest on Sunday rather than on Saturday.

[Arrow]

Originally posted by VresiBerba

Don't be silly, I never said that MY viewpoint was the right one or that you were in anyway wrong. I said that I find it hard to understand why a (pointless) qualification would be so damn interesting, and that it would be such a loss that we can only find out who's quickest on Sunday rather than on Saturday.

Watching and finding which drivers are the fastest over a lap is far from a pointless exercise. Its been one of the highlights of grandprix racing for close to a century.

[wegmann]

Blame whoever you want, but it looks like its going to be at least another few years before I start watching qualifying again. All hail the old 12-lap, low fuel format!

[-RM-]

If one would device the worst qualifying format ever, this would be it. The first 30 minutes are totaly wasted as nothing important is decided. The smaller teams will probably be shafted because the TV director will focus the top teams. At least with the old system teams like minardi got a few laps on the broadcast because they were the only ones that went out in the first 15 minutes. The first part of the final 20 minutes sessions will be an exiting spectacle where we will see engineers battle out how to waste the maximum amount of fuel without straining the engine while the drivers are trying their best to maximise their lap times. After they have burned off enough fuel they will go into the pit to wait for the 18 minute mark to come out for their only real flying lap. Welcome to the one lap qualifying from hell. This is truly a qualifying format designed by a committee.

[VresiBerba]

Originally posted by Arrow
Watching and finding which drivers are the fastest over a lap is far from a pointless exercise. Its been one of the highlights of grandprix racing for close to a century.

I didn't say that. I said that (pointless) qualification is not really interesting. What I mean is that Qual, in say 2002, didn't in the end mean a damn thing on who won the race. Montoya for instance had 5 consecutive and a total of 7 poles, yet not a single win came from those poles. What is the point of qualifying on pole then? Obviously seeing who's fastest on Saturday is no way a reliable way to judge speed, and history confirms this. So why there's such a disaster to qualify with fuel, which we don't know the amount of, is in no way detracting to the spectacle on Saturday.

[logic]

They are just trying to make a show.

If they want racing, bring back you know what qualifying system.
But they want good show, the make complicated quqlifying system, like reality tv-shows, who's gonna eliminated, bla bla bla

[kNt]

If the direction would be fine the focus in the first 30 minutes would be on the last 10 cars.

It won't be that bad I think but I doubt they'll stick with it till the directors and viewers have got to grips with it.


With maybe 8 competitive teams, it could really be a fight for the places.

[nigel red5]

There are three of us in my workplace that are F1 fans to a reasonable level. I've been telling the other two during the day about the F1 meeting and about how they are voting on this silly pop idol qualifying system......"they'll probably keep it as we've got now cos Ron Dennis was saying a lot of big changes need to be made, not just tinkering here and there" i said....

Near the end of the shift the late afternoon sports news comes on the radio, and the BBC inform me sat in my car that pop idol is going ahead, as are tyre changes in 2006. My first reaction was "right........ok", but soon i became disappointed, perplexed and increasingly angry about it.

I did'nt want to see this bloody silly reality tv-style system go through. Option 1 on the fan thing that we all looked at was a lot better, the 2 x 25 mins idea. That was what i voted for, but 2/3rds of the voters all went ahead and chose this stupid thing, and as a direct result of that poll, we're now stuck with this for 2006. I just hope you are all happy with yourselves.

There's far too many cons than pros to it anyway. Think on a little... Midland are likely to be the slowest team next year (once rollo bollo or whatever it's called gets moving up the field with Mateschitz cash), and so they will probably think it's not worth us going out, lets save the engine.

You're down to 18 before the 1st session starts......

Kimi Raikkonen has his umpteenth engine failure in Saturday morning practice, and knows he's gonna drop 10 on his final position.. Mclaren strategy determines that it's not worth going out, so save the engine.... now 17.

So in the first session you've got 17 guys going for 15 places.......*wow*. Is'nt that going to be thrilling. And then you'll have all the Indians saying the new format is crap because Karthikeyan is bumped, and all the Americans switching off speed channel in their droves because Scott Speed after just 15 mins is the other one to get bumped.

So then we get to part 2, after of course a convenient slot for adverts and just enough time for us all to wonder if the stop-start bite-sized qualifying was such a good idea after all.

Next we have the spinetingling prospect of watching the remaining 15 go for 10 places. Right now if you put on some music and shut your eyes, it could easily be musical chairs..... Webber spins off into the kittylitter after 10 mins which in turn sparks off Arrow with a whole paragraph explaining how this system is toss, the last system was toss, and so on.. My day is done after half an hour because Villeneuve and his BMW are'nt fast enough to make it into the pop idol "grand final" - that's assuming he's even in the sport next year!, some water's got to pass under that particular bridge first (lets leave that for another, or rather one of the other 10 threads on the subject).

Finally after all this we get down to the "grand final"... That should be fun. I can already see missed pole position laps by directors all over the planet Meantime Montoya is 3rd but on his very last lap is a tenth up in the 2nd sector, then 2 corners from home his engine blows and he loses power, trickling over the line for P10. Cut to Raikkonen and the Midland drivers who are sat in the green room watching the action on telly with saved engines for Sunday - Kimi with a cheeky grin on his face knowing that he just saved himself 60 minutes of effort. ....and so the shambles reaches it's conclusion and everyone will say "wow what an excellent session".. no, no i`m sorry.

For a start it's not fair. In all the time i've been watching Formula 1 all the drivers in the main part of qualifying for the grid, had a reasonably equal and fair shot at establishing a time and a grid position.. How the hell is it fair that the back end guys get a 15 minute chance, and the quick guys at the sharp end get a full 60 mins on track - that's a point...and more track time!

Why can't they just give 'em an hour, and let them get on with it, as many laps as you want?

Having taken the piss and ranted about how i don't like it, it is easy to see the one big plus point though. Now you'll get three shootouts with quickfire driver-bumping going on in the first two sessions. It'll be easy to fall for the appeal of that.....but overall, i just don't like it, and wish we'd stayed as we were for 2005.

[Naushad78]

Originally posted by coyoteBR
Hm, adapt to new rules, develop a car for the new change-able tires, for the new fuel-wasting qualies, for the new V-8 engines, that go against everything they used to know in f-1 for the past seasons, and throw everything away in 2007 to receive the dual wings, slicks, ...


Could someone explain when the cheaper, more fair F1 with oportunities for privateers will begin, exactly?

BRILLIANT!!!

[karlth]

F1 needs these changes to stay on their toes and I'm sure the engineers are applauding every single new regulation idea.

May the best engineer win, may the best team win and hopefully the driver too.

May you live in interesting times.

[baddog]

Originally posted by karlth

May the best engineer win, may the best team win and hopefully the driver too.

Amen

[jokuvaan]

Mosley says that surely everybody will stay on the track last 20min to burn much as possible fuel.

Is he saying that its illegal to remove fuel from the car, or build system that would simply burn it away?

[Buttoneer]

I liked old 12-lap one hour qualifying, but I much prefer to get my entertainment on a Sunday.

You need to think whether qualifying was exciting because it produced dull races rather than seeinjg it as the holy grail to save your weekend.

And car's don't 'qualify' anymore anyway do they? In the olden rose tinted days you had 30 cars trying to fit into 24 grid spaces and the drivers had to prove that they could keep up and deserve to race. Fine. So what we're doing now is trying to work out where they start from not whether they will race.

I enjoyed Kimi winning from 17th at Suzuka much more than I enjoyed Alonso winning from pole, but I can appreciate that others may prefer to see a solo virtuoso performance from the pole sitter every weekend.

I vote for the lottery...

[-TC-]

Originally posted by Buttoneer
I vote for the lottery...

Hey man, I didn't see your email 'til the other site was gone.

[angst]

Originally posted by Buttoneer
I liked old 12-lap one hour qualifying, but I much prefer to get my entertainment on a Sunday.

You need to think whether qualifying was exciting because it produced dull races rather than seeinjg it as the holy grail to save your weekend.

And car's don't 'qualify' anymore anyway do they? In the olden rose tinted days you had 30 cars trying to fit into 24 grid spaces and the drivers had to prove that they could keep up and deserve to race. Fine. So what we're doing now is trying to work out where they start from not whether they will race.

I enjoyed Kimi winning from 17th at Suzuka much more than I enjoyed Alonso winning from pole, but I can appreciate that others may prefer to see a solo virtuoso performance from the pole sitter every weekend.

I vote for the lottery...

The lottery gets my vote as well.

But that's not the point I was going to make. How long is it going to take the 'powers that be' to understand that no matter how much they fiddle with the qualifying format, no matter what method they use, TV audiences for qualifying are not going to match what they seem to be looking for? The race is the selling point.

[Buttoneer]

Originally posted by -TC-


Hey man, I didn't see your email 'til the other site was gone.

YHPM

And Angst, it is also true to say that even if you sexed up qualifying to the old 12 lap format and made it super exciting there are a lot of countries who will just never schedule the TV. Or they will do what ITV did and schedule the China qualifying show to finish five hours before the race starts and make it pointless viewing.

More people are able to watch the race and this must be the focus of the weekend.

Fiddling and tweaking is now what we need.

[Arrow]

I guess we can expect the teams in last 20 minutes to probably cruise around the track for 15 minutes on old tyres burning off as much fuel as they can with some crazy fuel high fuel consumption engine managment setting in preperation for a final run at the end on the lowest possible fuel. All kinds of stupid farcical things can happen now because they refused to get rid of the stupid and useless parc ferme system ffs.
I doubt anyone bothers to think through such scenarios when they vote for these stupid ****ed up rules.

[Slyder]

One gripe: No low fuel, again.

Sheesh.

[HSJ]

Originally posted by Al.


Edit: Just read the details. They start the last 20 minutes with race fuel. The cars are weighed and then they can run as many laps as they like and at the end they are topped back up with fuel to what they weighed at the start.

Thus the more laps you do in the last 20 minute session, the lighter your car will be for a last minute switch to new tyres and a shot at a quick time.

Doesn't sound very good to me. So they drive around just to get the car light? FFS... This new quali format is trying to put together the worst aspects of pre-2003 qualifying AND post-2003 qualifying... In the first sessions the fast cars will just put in "banker" laps to make it to the final session, and then they do mostly useless running to burn fuel, and finally put on new tyres for a last minute fast lap and the TV director will show us exactly one of those laps or 10% of each of the laps. This sucks so bad...

[HSJ]

Originally posted by race addicted
I would've been OK with it, had it been on low fuel. Now it's just the same shite; we've no clue about who's quick and who's not, till Sunday afternoon!

Yep. I was hoping the final session would have been low fuel as well. Early 2005 qualifying was better than this new format, actually, because then the cars pushed on both full and low fuel in qualifying, now we won't see their ultimate speed at any point. While I don't mind race fuel qualifying, we should still have a qualifying session (like Q1 in the first races this year) that shows their real pace (yeah I know the track conditions were not identical, but it was still better than nothing).

[HSJ]

Originally posted by nigel red5

I did'nt want to see this bloody silly reality tv-style system go through.

You know what would be REALLY cool? That the TV viewers would vote for each team and driver and that would then decide the grid!!! Real pop-idol F1 for the masses.

Sarcasm aside, great post, nr5.

[Ceejay]

I take the view that the new qualifying format has been cleverly detailed to ensure that the fans get all that they asked for from the FIA. It is a compromise solution, but then it had to be.

I particularly like the fact that, during the final session for the top ten qualifiers, drivers will not be able to stay in the pit watching the others burn off their fuel. If any driver does this he will compromise his qualifying time by carrying too much fuel.

[roadie]

I really like the aggregate system we had at the beginning of the year. That way we got to see who was quickest on low fuel as well as a strategic element for the race on Sunday. Oh well.

I don't think I will be a fan of the new system. I like the one lap qualifying as we got to compare all of the drivers over the lap and to see all of the mistakes that they made. Now we will miss this because the TV directors will be shite and James Allen will be screaming like someone has shoved a red hot poker up his arse because Kimi just beat Alonso etc. He will also confuse all of the team mates and be even more irratating than previously possible.

[Hyatt]

hmm, dunno what to think about it yet ...
guess there wont be a real shootout with low fuel, at least for the top teams ... they'll do an average lap that will be just good enuff to be in the top ten. The last 20mins will be interesting, but, again, on high fuel load. In 07 we will have 24 cars, so 14 cars in the last shootout -> "i was faster but ran into traffic again on my fast lap" ...
But how are the rules for the last 20mins? fueling up for the race once at the beginning of the session? or free fuel throughout the session? Teams trying to find the right balance between fuelload, speed and aimed grid-position means they'll do lots of laps if free fuel is allowed ...

edit ...
ok after thinking about it again i came to the conclusion that free fuel wont be the case ... so fueling up once at the start of the last 20mins, lots of fuel maybe starting with fuel for a 1-stop strategy ... then during the the session some teams beating themselves ending up with fuel left for a 3-stop strategy in the car ... so lots of traffic again. Will be interesting to watch how it develops ...

[armonico]

Originally posted by RaymondMays
A new qualifying format has been agreed by the F1 Commission, amongst other things.

Session one - 15 minutes - Slowest five cars eliminated
Session two - 15 minutes - Slowest five cars eliminated
Session three - 20 minutes - Top ten grid slots decided

Question What happens when/if there are 24 cars on the grid, as is rumoured?

It doesn't really matter the number of cars on the grid.

Most people will only see the last 20 minutes of session three. TV will study the TV ratios and verify the only session worth to broadcast will be the last one. Then the teams eliminated in the first two sessions will start to complain about low TV exposure or/and TV not broadcasting the first two sessions etc, etc. and they will start to pressure FIA and uncle Bernie to change again the quallifying format.

Whatever reason, it may be likely the format will be amended mid-season, again.

[fifi]

i think its stupid................doubt i will be watching much qualifying next year

[jokuvaan]

I have not read any clarification for the fuel issue so it must be that Mosley misjudged teams big team.

I look forward of seeing massive flames behind F1 cars as they empty tanks do to 2-3 low fuel runs and in the Sunday race they will be again fat as tank can hold.

[kenny]

Originally posted by armonico


It doesn't really matter the number of cars on the grid.

Most people will only see the last 20 minutes of session three. TV will study the TV ratios and verify the only session worth to broadcast will be the last one. Then the teams eliminated in the first two sessions will start to complain about low TV exposure or/and TV not broadcasting the first two sessions etc, etc. and they will start to pressure FIA and uncle Bernie to change again the quallifying format.

Whatever reason, it may be likely the format will be amended mid-season, again.

Sadly, this is exactly what will happen!

F1 is losing more and more credibility, you can't change the rules every 2 weeks, and think that it will be for the good of the sport...
the real fans will probably keep watching anyway, but they can forget to get new people to join F1.. they are making it too complicated for 'normal' people to watch...

[Keffo]

Originally posted by race addicted
I would've been OK with it, had it been on low fuel. Now it's just the same shite; we've no clue about who's quick and who's not, till Sunday afternoon!

maybe we have, the FIA now has the data about the fuel which is in the cars, maybe they can make that public. the FIA wasn't in this position the last years, so maybe we know someting about the sunday on saturday

but it's up to the FIA

[CaptnMark]

Originally posted by Slyder
One gripe: No low fuel, again.

Sheesh.

I now hope the F1 - GPWC split happens before 2008 and somebody pushes a 10-year reset button.
1997 - slicks, good qualifying, less driver aids.

[karlth]

Originally posted by CaptnMark
1997 - slicks, good qualifying, less driver aids.

And some astoundingly boring races as well. Slicks, 12 lap qualifying and less driver aids won't fix anything by themselves.

[Buttoneer]

Just a quick thought on this. If you have 20-24 cars all trying to put in a time in 15 minutes you'll end up with a whole lot of spoiled laps and potentially some big names dropping out pretty early on.

Green track too, probably.

The nest 15 minutes will not be so bad but still, check what happens with A1GP at the moment and those who time their session well get an advantage over those who don't.

The last session might be the rubbish one, where ultimately everyone ends up in fastest car order.

[karlth]

Originally posted by Buttoneer
Just a quick thought on this. If you have 20-24 cars all trying to put in a time in 15 minutes you'll end up with a whole lot of spoiled laps and potentially some big names dropping out pretty early on.

At least they will be able to decide themselves when to go out.

[chris_canuk]

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that it's raining buckets on Saturday and noone goes out in session 1. Who runs in session 2?