30 replies to this topic

[Seanmac27]

I am aware of some poeples fanatacism about certain drivers, however, this is one man who seems to have been a little enigmatic, so here is a twofold question, with his undoubted quality of performance in lesser categories, how good was Bruno as a driver, how much did the shortfallings of the Alfa through 80 and 81 dent his streetcred, was his performance in the Ducarouge Alfa of '82 really that poor? There certainly seemed to be no overall problems in qualifying, over half the GPs competed by Alfa, Bruno had the Alfa in the top 10, Andrea de Cesaris did it 10 times, but there were 5 retirements from accidents, at least 2 of which were not his fault, Arnoux at Long Beach, de Cesaris in Austria, I don't recall the collision with Mansell at Canada.

Was he just overshadowed by de Cesaris, or was his desire/hunger for F1 on the wane, I would certainly suggest that Warwick had the '83 Toleman fighting above its weight on severeal occasions.

Your thoughts

[pluto]

He did well in 1981 but only occasionaly: Monza, Montreal and especially at Las Vegas where he was superfast in the closing stages, coming back after a spin. In 1982 I think that he made a mistake at Long Beach. In general he was not as fast as DeCesaris and for some reason good results were lost in the few times he had a chance: Long Beach, Montecarlo and Detroit.
I think he was good but not a "champion", but I liked the Panda a lot.

[Seanmac27]

Yes but, the changes in performance from the Alfa at the end of '81 were only after the arroval of Gerard Ducarouge, if you look at what was really a very wayward performance of the 179 through 1980 and into 81 you would believe that it was something to do with the drivers, however when you realise that the driving squad included race winners and a World Champion, in Depailler and Andretti, the picture becomes one of something intrinsically wrong with make up of the team, therefore my original question really still stands, Ducarouge got sacked from Alfa when, end of 82? beginning of '83. His hand guiding Alfa had started the team on what, with quality driverfs could have been a successful future, albeit against the wishes of FIAT.

[pluto]

yes, Ducarouge arrival put "wings" in tha AlfaRomeo performance. His modifications made the Alfa much faster starting from Zandvoort 81. Even the 182 fiber carbon was a beautiful car but the drivers IMO didn't exctract the maximum from it. The sack of GD was not an intelligent mouve IMO

[Cirrus]

I've heard that Mr Giacomelli is a regular reader of TNF.

Come on, Bruno, how bad were the Alfas?

[Paolo]

Originally posted by pluto
In general he was not as fast as DeCesaris

I disagree.
1982 was the year I discovered F1 and I still clearly remember all the races.
Never I had the impression that Giacomelli was worse than De Cesaris, nor I remember any comments of this sort in the press.

[SEdward]

My theory is that Bruno was seriously affect by Depailler's accident. Remember that he was one of the first people to arrive at the scene of the crash. I suspect that the flame was extinguished on that day.

You can refer to Mike Lawrence's post about Comas in the Mansell versus Senna thread for a similar story. I suspect that the same applies to Scheckter, who was the first driver to arrive at the scene of Cevert's accident. OK, so he won the WC 6 years later, but he was never quite as fiery as in 1973.

Edward

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by pluto
yes, Ducarouge arrival put "wings" in tha AlfaRomeo performance. His modifications made the Alfa much faster starting from Zandvoort 81. Even the 182 fiber carbon was a beautiful car but the drivers IMO didn't exctract the maximum from it. The sack of GD was not an intelligent mouve IMO

The turbo Alfas were quick cars, but they were never fuel-efficient.....

[Fiorentina 1]

Giacomelli was always hyped up by the Italian press like Autosprint. But, was he really that good? I don't think so. I think he was as good as Cheever, DeCesaris, Ghinzani or Winkelhock, a desrvent of being a Formula One driver, but not on the same level as Arnoux, De Angelis, Patrese, Warwick or Surer, who weren't World Championship caliber drivers, but on their day could win races in the right car. I know Warwick & Surer never won a rce, but with a little bit of luck could have won a few.

During that era it was hard to say who was really that good and who was just in the right car at the right time. Look at Rosberg, he goes from fighting for 22nd on the grid in the Fittipaldi in 81 to being World Champion in 1 season! And, Tambay, from being an F1 reject to fighting for the Championship in 83 with Ferrari. Therefore, I think Giacomelli was one of the 20 best F1 drivers of the fantastic 80-84 era, but not one of the top 10 who won Championships or many races.....

[Vicuna]

I've wondered if Bruno's career lost momentum after the dominating 78 F2 season. He didn't have a F1 deal to jump into.

In the right car, Bruno could have GPs - I am sure about that.

But so could have Tom Pryce, Stefan Bellof..

[angst]

Originally posted by SEdward
My theory is that Bruno was seriously affect by Depailler's accident. Remember that he was one of the first people to arrive at the scene of the crash. I suspect that the flame was extinguished on that day.

You can refer to Mike Lawrence's post about Comas in the Mansell versus Senna thread for a similar story. I suspect that the same applies to Scheckter, who was the first driver to arrive at the scene of Cevert's accident. OK, so he won the WC 6 years later, but he was never quite as fiery as in 1973.

Edward

I'd never thought of that before, which is quite bizarre, really. That sort of experience is bound to have a profound impact upon the way you go racing. But it was post Hockenheim that he so convincingly led at Watkin's Glen, before the Alfa let him down.

I just think the Alfa team were not coherent enough a unit to run competitively throughout a season. GD might well have produced very good cars, but the team that runs them has to be at a level to take advantage of that. Look at how well the RAM team did with the FW07s in 1980.

I just got the impression that the Alfa team were not as, how to put this, professional.. as the top teams, in much the same way that Ligier could never really hang it together consistently. And then his time at Toleman was very much as number 2 to Derek Warwick. Shame really. He's one of those drivers I'd love to have seen on the top step of a podium at least once.

[Seanmac27]

Originally posted by Paolo


I disagree.
1982 was the year I discovered F1 and I still clearly remember all the races.
Never I had the impression that Giacomelli was worse than De Cesaris, nor I remember any comments of this sort in the press.

Well I think the Numbers Speak for themselves.

South Africa

Grid
16. Andrea De Cesaris 1'10.952
19. Bruno Giacomelli 1'11.285

Results
11. Bruno Giacomelli 3 laps down
13. Andrea De Cesaris 4 laps down

Fastest Laps
Andrea De Cesaris 1'10.164
Bruno Giacomelli 1'13.593

Brazil

Grid
10. Andrea De Cesaris 1'31.229
16. Bruno Giacomelli 1'32.769

Results
Bruno Giacomelli Retired: Lap 16 Clutch
Andrea De Cesaris Retired: Lap 14 Chassis

Fastest Laps
Bruno Giacomelli 1'37.726
Andrea De Cesaris 1'38.472

Long Beach

Grid
1. Andrea De Cesaris 1'27.316
5. Bruno Giacomelli 1'28.087

Results
Andrea De Cesaris Retired: Lap 33 Accident
Bruno Giacomelli Retired: Lap 5 Collision with Arnoux

Fastest Laps
Andrea De Cesaris 1'31.205
Bruno Giacomelli 1'31.602

San Marino

6. Bruno Giacomelli 1'33.230
7. Andrea De Cesaris 1'33.397

Results
Bruno Giacomelli Retired: Lap 24 Engine
Andrea De Cesaris Retired: Lap 4 Electrical

Fastest Laps
Bruno Giacomelli 1'37.210
Andrea De Cesaris 1'46.445

Belgium

Grid
6. Andrea De Cesaris 1'16.575
15. Bruno Giacomelli 1'18.371

Results
Andrea De Cesaris Retired: Lap 34 Gearbox
Bruno Giacomelli Retired:Lap 0 Collision

Fastest Laps
Andrea De Cesaris 1'20.689
Bruno Giacomelli no time recorded

Monaco

Grid
3. Bruno Giacomelli 1'23.939
7. Andrea De Cesaris 1'24.928

Results
3. Andrea De Cesaris Out of Fuel
Bruno Giacomelli Retired: Lap 4 Halfshaft

Fastest Laps
Andrea De Cesaris 1'27.138
Bruno Giacomelli 1'30.326

Detroit

Grid
2. Andrea De Cesaris 1'48.872
6. Bruno Giacomelli 150.252

Results
Bruno Giacomelli Retired: Lap 30 Collision
Andrea De Cesaris Retired: Lap 2 Ignition

Fastest Laps
Bruno Giacomelli 1'52.822
Andrea De Cesaris 1'59.087

Canada

Grid
5. Bruno Giacomelli 1'28.740
9. Andrea De Cesaris 1'29.183

Results
6. Andrea De Cesaris Out of Fuel
Bruno Giacomelli Retired: Lap 1 Collision with Mansell

Fastest Laps
Andrea De Cesaris 1'29.559
Bruno Giacomelli 1'40.559

Netherlands

Grid
8. Bruno Giacomelli 1'16.513
9. Andrea De Cesaris 1'16.576

Results
11. Bruno Giacomelli 2 Laps Down
Andrea De Cesaris Retired: Lap 35 Electrical

Fastest Laps
Bruno Giacomelli 1'21.992
Andrea De Cesaris 1'22.698

Great Britain

Grid
11. Andrea De Cesaris 1'11.347
14. Bruno Giacomelli 1'11.502

Results
7. Bruno Giacomelli 1 Lap Down
Andrea De Cesaris Retired: Lap 66 Electrical

Fastest Laps
12. Bruno Giacomelli 1'14.817
15. Andrea De Cesaris 1'15.138

France

Grid
7. Andrea De Cesaris 1'37.573
8. Bruno Giacomelli 1'37.705

Results
9. Bruno Giacomelli 1 Lap Down
Andrea De Cesaris Retired: Lap 25 Spun Off

Fastest Laps
Bruno Giacomelli 1'44.464
Andrea De Cesaris 1'44.844

Germany

Grid
8. Andrea De Cesaris 1'52.786
11. Bruno Giacomelli 153.887

Results
5. Bruno Giacomelli 1 Lap Down
Andrea De Cesaris Retired: Lap 9 Gearbox

Fastest Laps
Andrea De Cesaris 1'57.838
Bruno Giacomelli 1'58.193

Austria

Grid
11. Andrea De Cesaris 1'32.308
13. Bruno Giacomelli 1'32.950

Results
Andrea De Cesaris Retired Lap 0 Collision with Giacomelli
Bruno Giacomelli Retired Lap 0 Collision with De Cesaris

Fastest Laps
Andrea De Cesaris No Time Recorded
Bruno Giacomelli No Time Recorded

Switerland

Grid
5. Andrea De Cesaris 1'03.023
9. Bruno Giacomelli 1'03.776

Results
10. Andrea De Cesaris 2 Laps Down
12. Bruno Giacomelli 2 Laps Down

Fastest Laps
Andrea De Cesaris 1'09.903
Bruno Giacomelli 1'09.913

Italy

Grid
8. Bruno Giacomelli 1'32.352
9. Andrea De Cesaris 1'32.546

Results
10. Andrea De Cesaris 2 Laps Down
Bruno Giacomelli Retired: Lap 32 Handling

Fastest Laps
Andrea De Cesaris 1'35.291
Bruno Giacomelli 1'36.201

Las Vegas

Grid
16. Bruno Giacomelli 1'18.622
18. Andrea De Cesaris 1'18.761

Results
9. Andrea De Cesaris 2 Laps Down
10. Bruno Giacomelli 2 Laps Down

Fastest Laps
Andrea De Cesaris 1'21.693
Bruno Giacomelli 1'22.234

So I guess that this shows only that in terms of numbers the drivers were fairly evenly matched, however, raw statistics, as I have said on another thread can be shown to prove whatever you desire.

[angst]

Originally posted by Seanmac27


Well I think the Numbers Speak for themselves.

South Africa

Grid
16. Andrea De Cesaris 1'10.952
19. Bruno Giacomelli 1'11.285

Results
11. Bruno Giacomelli 3 laps down
13. Andrea De Cesaris 4 laps down

Fastest Laps
Andrea De Cesaris 1'10.164
Bruno Giacomelli 1'13.593

Brazil

Grid
10. Andrea De Cesaris 1'31.229
16. Bruno Giacomelli 1'32.769

Results
Bruno Giacomelli Retired: Lap 16 Clutch
Andrea De Cesaris Retired: Lap 14 Chassis

Fastest Laps
Bruno Giacomelli 1'37.726
Andrea De Cesaris 1'38.472

Long Beach

Grid
1. Andrea De Cesaris 1'27.316
5. Bruno Giacomelli 1'28.087

Results
Andrea De Cesaris Retired: Lap 33 Accident
Bruno Giacomelli Retired: Lap 5 Collision with Arnoux

Fastest Laps
Andrea De Cesaris 1'31.205
Bruno Giacomelli 1'31.602

San Marino

6. Bruno Giacomelli 1'33.230
7. Andrea De Cesaris 1'33.397

Results
Bruno Giacomelli Retired: Lap 24 Engine
Andrea De Cesaris Retired: Lap 4 Electrical

Fastest Laps
Bruno Giacomelli 1'37.210
Andrea De Cesaris 1'46.445

Belgium

Grid
6. Andrea De Cesaris 1'16.575
15. Bruno Giacomelli 1'18.371

Results
Andrea De Cesaris Retired: Lap 34 Gearbox
Bruno Giacomelli Retired:Lap 0 Collision

Fastest Laps
Andrea De Cesaris 1'20.689
Bruno Giacomelli no time recorded

Monaco

Grid
3. Bruno Giacomelli 1'23.939
7. Andrea De Cesaris 1'24.928

Results
3. Andrea De Cesaris Out of Fuel
Bruno Giacomelli Retired: Lap 4 Halfshaft

Fastest Laps
Andrea De Cesaris 1'27.138
Bruno Giacomelli 1'30.326

Detroit

Grid
2. Andrea De Cesaris 1'48.872
6. Bruno Giacomelli 150.252

Results
Bruno Giacomelli Retired: Lap 30 Collision
Andrea De Cesaris Retired: Lap 2 Ignition

Fastest Laps
Bruno Giacomelli 1'52.822
Andrea De Cesaris 1'59.087

Canada

Grid
5. Bruno Giacomelli 1'28.740
9. Andrea De Cesaris 1'29.183

Results
6. Andrea De Cesaris Out of Fuel
Bruno Giacomelli Retired: Lap 1 Collision with Mansell

Fastest Laps
Andrea De Cesaris 1'29.559
Bruno Giacomelli 1'40.559

Netherlands

Grid
8. Bruno Giacomelli 1'16.513
9. Andrea De Cesaris 1'16.576

Results
11. Bruno Giacomelli 2 Laps Down
Andrea De Cesaris Retired: Lap 35 Electrical

Fastest Laps
Bruno Giacomelli 1'21.992
Andrea De Cesaris 1'22.698

Great Britain

Grid
11. Andrea De Cesaris 1'11.347
14. Bruno Giacomelli 1'11.502

Results
7. Bruno Giacomelli 1 Lap Down
Andrea De Cesaris Retired: Lap 66 Electrical

Fastest Laps
12. Bruno Giacomelli 1'14.817
15. Andrea De Cesaris 1'15.138

France

Grid
7. Andrea De Cesaris 1'37.573
8. Bruno Giacomelli 1'37.705

Results
9. Bruno Giacomelli 1 Lap Down
Andrea De Cesaris Retired: Lap 25 Spun Off

Fastest Laps
Bruno Giacomelli 1'44.464
Andrea De Cesaris 1'44.844

Germany

Grid
8. Andrea De Cesaris 1'52.786
11. Bruno Giacomelli 153.887

Results
5. Bruno Giacomelli 1 Lap Down
Andrea De Cesaris Retired: Lap 9 Gearbox

Fastest Laps
Andrea De Cesaris 1'57.838
Bruno Giacomelli 1'58.193

Austria

Grid
11. Andrea De Cesaris 1'32.308
13. Bruno Giacomelli 1'32.950

Results
Andrea De Cesaris Retired Lap 0 Collision with Giacomelli
Bruno Giacomelli Retired Lap 0 Collision with De Cesaris

Fastest Laps
Andrea De Cesaris No Time Recorded
Bruno Giacomelli No Time Recorded

Switerland

Grid
5. Andrea De Cesaris 1'03.023
9. Bruno Giacomelli 1'03.776

Results
10. Andrea De Cesaris 2 Laps Down
12. Bruno Giacomelli 2 Laps Down

Fastest Laps
Andrea De Cesaris 1'09.903
Bruno Giacomelli 1'09.913

Italy

Grid
8. Bruno Giacomelli 1'32.352
9. Andrea De Cesaris 1'32.546

Results
10. Andrea De Cesaris 2 Laps Down
Bruno Giacomelli Retired: Lap 32 Handling

Fastest Laps
Andrea De Cesaris 1'35.291
Bruno Giacomelli 1'36.201

Las Vegas

Grid
16. Bruno Giacomelli 1'18.622
18. Andrea De Cesaris 1'18.761

Results
9. Andrea De Cesaris 2 Laps Down
10. Bruno Giacomelli 2 Laps Down

Fastest Laps
Andrea De Cesaris 1'21.693
Bruno Giacomelli 1'22.234

So I guess that this shows only that in terms of numbers the drivers were fairly evenly matched, however, raw statistics, as I have said on another thread can be shown to prove whatever you desire.

So, that pretty much backs up what Paolo said then.

I never got the impression that Giacomelli was outperformed by de Cesaris either. I think that there was alot of interest in de Cesaris because he'd put the car on pole at Long Beach and then led (until he spent a little too much time making signals to, I believe, Raul Boesel).

But I believed that both drivers had alot more to offer than their results would suggest. I think the Alfa team, as I said, was not the best place for a young driver to try and make his mark. If they'd had someone like Jean Todt at the helm....... might have been different, but Carlo Chiti? Hmmmm...

De Cesaris made the step up to F1 too young, I think. His year at McLaren was a waste of a good drive really, and his career never really recovered it's original impetus after that. Same could be said for Giacomelli (the impetus bit) as his only chance in F1 came with the Alfa team. Maybe if he hadn't had his misunderstanding with Lauda at Brands '78...... maybe there would have been a Brabham drive for him.

[Tony Kingston]

Nothing to do with Bruno's racing qualities, but one day a group of lads at March thought that a bit of physical exercise would do us some good. We rented a hall at the local sports centre for a bit of a kick about (indoor football). As Bruno happened to be hanging about, we invited him and another chap, called Giordano (Dodo) Regazzoni to come along.
My God were they fit! We had to take turns in goal for a breather, whereas they didn't seem to break sweat at all.

All in all, a thoroughly decent bloke.

[angst]

Originally posted by Tony Kingston
Nothing to do with Bruno's racing qualities, but one day a group of lads at March thought that a bit of physical exercise would do us some good. We rented a hall at the local sports centre for a bit of a kick about (indoor football). As Bruno happened to be hanging about, we invited him and another chap, called Giordano (Dodo) Regazzoni to come along.
My God were they fit! We had to take turns in goal for a breather, whereas they didn't seem to break sweat at all.

All in all, a thoroughly decent bloke.

A little off topic, but was(is) Giordano related to 'Clay'?

And how is it that never having met him, I always had the impression that he was a thoroughly decent bloke? It happens alot. I don't know if it's just how they come across in interviews or, subtley, how journalists write about them, but you usually get a good idea of who's a good bloke and who's a bit of a wanker. Weird.

[Seanmac27]

Now I may be wrong here, but the only time I recall Bruno having out driven by a team mate was by Derek Warwick at Toleman in '83. BUT

From my recollection this was a team built up around Derek as he had been with the team since Formula 2, and therefore he got the better equipment and possibly more attention, I may be off the mark there, but there are few people who could us honestly what the situation was actually like.

[Tony Kingston]

A little off topic, but was(is) Giordano related to 'Clay'?

Dodo is Clay's younger brother. He was doing some F3 at the time.

[D-Type]

There was something missing at Alfa Romeo, even in the days when they were supplying engines to Brabham. I remember an article where Niki Lauda was quoted as saying that the swinging differences in qualifying times between himself and Watson or Piquet was largely down to inconsistencies in the engine performance.

[Stefan Schmidt]

I've heard that Mr Giacomelli is a regular reader of TNF.

I am sure he is reading this

Bruno Giacomelli was (is) the best!!

[Hieronymus]

How about Carlo Chiti?? I think he was a major contributor to the non-performance of the Alfa team. He very much over ruled the input that was given by Depailler in 1980. I was also told by a driver that competed for Alfa that Chiti hardly ever listened to what a driver had to say. He had the attitude that Alfa is greater than any driver...

Any of you chaps on this forum agree or disagree with this???

[f1steveuk]

I sort of took my support from Tyrrell to Alfa when Patrick went there. After Hockenhiem I thought Bruno did a superb job. I was gutted at Watkins Glen when his car failed as he led. The picture of Bruno dancing with Mario at Bolocco I think, they seemed to be on the same wavelength. I followed Bruno in F3, and F2, he was bloody quick. I suspect the usual, what if?? What if Lotus instead of Toleman, what if Tyrrell instead of Alfa? What if Hockenhiem hadn't happened? Who knows?

[Stefan Schmidt]

So, I am not sure if Patrick Depailler made always the right decisions in car setup for the Alfa Romeo in 1980. Sorry PD, you know I am your biggest fan, but…. I have to say that.

There have been some fantastic ideas from his side, such as simulating the Monte Carlo GP in Nogaro after installing chicanes on the circuit. But if I remember the day when Good years offered Alfa 15” tyres to replace the 13” tyres for the front he tested it and was sure that they are not useful. Later that day Bruno Giacomelli tried these 15” tyres and said that you don’t feel a big progress with it, but you have some hundred revs more on the tachometer at the corners exit. So, Patrick was the boss in these days and nobody listen to Bruno. After August 1st and Patrick’s fatal accident Bruno was asking Ing. Chiti to try these tyres for the Austriaan and Dutch GP. He got his 15” tyres and he has had two fantastic races. For the rest of the season they used 15” tyres on both cars and the result was Bruno’s superb drive at the Glen. It is a big lie when people are saying that Depailler was getting killed while testing these 15” tyres in Hockenheim.

By the way… don’t forget Bruno’s performance in 1981 at Monza, Montreal and at Vegas. His race in 1982 at Monaco was also good. In 1983 Brands Hatch was good.

Best moments to remember are the Hotel story at Kyalami in 1982 and the big fall after the 1983 Canadian GP.

A word concerning the cars and the Team:
Don’t forget that the Alfa 179 was already very old in 1980 and didn’t get younger in 1981. ALFA Romeo has had a perfect car for 1981 which was unnecessary after skirts ban and the retirement of Good Year (no more 15” tyres). In late 1980 just after the Italian GP at Imola Bruno has got an offer from Frank Williams for 1981. Frank told him about the rising troubles between Carlos and Alan Jones. Bruno said …. NO… to Frank, which was in my point of view his biggest mistake in F1. The reason was that he knew that Alfa had this fantastic car from 1981, which finally never run.
Regarding 1983: I think that he was bringing the Candy money with himself after replacing Teo Fabi.

But why did I tell you so much… Let’s wait for Bruno’s book which should be written on day…

[ensign14]

Am I missing something here? Surely Alfa and Bruno got a pole at the end of 1980?

Alfa came good towards the end of 80 and 81...any special reason for that?

[Stefan Schmidt]

Originally posted by ensign14

Alfa came good towards the end of 80 and 81...any special reason for that?

Yes, the reason is called Bruno

[ensign14]

But why were they hopeless at the start of each year? And in 1982 they started a damn sight better and faded away.

[f1steveuk]

Alfa seemed to specialise in starting a season badly, improving through the year and just getting on it at the end, then start all over again, until the Ducarouge era, and then they just seem sqaunder it, which is why "Duca" ended up at Lotus, I think

[Stefan Schmidt]

Check this PHOTO

A rare document....

[cosworth bdg]

Originally posted by petefenelon


The turbo Alfas were quick cars, but they were never fuel-efficient.....

Do not forget the fact that fuel- efficiency was in its infancy at this moment in time, mechanical fuel injection was still used by ALFA.....-----

[Stefan Schmidt]

Did Jackie Stewart really say in late 1978 that BG will be the new Jim Clark?

[dretceterini]

Originally posted by Stefan Schmidt



Yes, the reason is called Bruno

IMO, bruno was good enough to finish in the top 10 every race, but not good enough to ever be a WDC. The biggest problem with the cars was reliability; not speed..

[COUGAR508]

Originally posted by Stefan Schmidt
Did Jackie Stewart really say in late 1978 that BG will be the new Jim Clark?

At the time, there was every reason to think that Bruno would have a glittering F1 career, after his exploits in F3 and F2. However, he never quite fulfilled that potential.

Giacomelli reminds me of Jean-Pierre Jarier, another driver of undoubted talent, who dominated in F2, but could only produce flashes of brilliance in F1, despite having access to some reasonable machinery.