42 replies to this topic

[Antony1]

This is from a magazine talking about drivers who gave their teams their best success.


Benetton...Michael schumacher.

Not the most difficult of choices,this.
Rarely have a long-established teams fortunes been so inextricably linked to a single driver.The colossus that is michael schumacher bestrides benetton even now,three years after he plumbed for a new challenge(and salary)at ferrari.

The figures are mind-boggling:

His 68 starts with benetton generated 19 wins,10 poles,23 fastest laps,303 points,two drivers championships and benettons only constructors title to date.In the 94/95 seasons he won 18 of the 31 races he started.He lost one through disqualification and missed 2 races because of a FIA ban.

And then there are the statistics since he left
3 poles,six fastest laps,and just one win........Gerhard bergers 97 germany success.The benetton team have even been ousted from the big four by jordan

Compelling stuff.
But these numbers dont tell the whole story.The manner of schumachers benetton victories was just as important.
His balls-to-the-wall attacking style endeared him to the team and he attained God-like status within it.His team-mates were little more than footnotes in his dismantling of the williams empire.

His zenith was 1994.Armed with a ford powered B194 deemed inferiour to its williams rival,his phenomenal speed and unflinching grasp of racecraft allowed the tactical genious of ross brawn to flourish,and this duo combined to make williams look foolish on serveral occasions.

The following season was a more equal affair,at least in terms of equipment.The presence of schumacher had caused renault to break their exclusivity clause with williams to provide engines to benetton.Schumacher swarmed to his second title with 2 races to spare.

Then there are the statistics BEFORE he arrived
3 poles
9 fastest laps
4 wins-from 148 starts......Told you.

[Ricardo F1]

Told us what? We all acknowledge that Schui's probably the best out there in all round terms, but bringing up stats of Benetton turning into a great team (with great designers who then left along with Schu) isn't really relevant is it? He got to Benetton and in 94 jumped into a damn good car. 95 same thing, even better car. Then left and left a legacy of a team falling apart to follow him and a car that was built around his style of handling (which was totally contrary to what Berger and Alesi seemingly liked).

[Todd]

Ricardo,

Rory Byrne was with the team from 1983, when they were still called Toleman. Michael Schumacher joined in '91 and was instrumental in the team progressing to the point that "in 94 (he) jumped into a damn good car." The people who eventually joined Michael at Ferrari were still running Benetton throught the winless '96 season and long enough to design the '97 B197. The real measure of the strength of '95 Benetton was plain in the results they produced in '96. The car was designed to be less tricky to drive, and Ross Brawn was still determining the tactics. All they needed was Michael Schumacher to drive the thing and they'd have won it all again.

[Red27]

I accept that Michael Schumacher is the outstanding driver of this generation. But you're a bit hard on Berger and Alesi. It is obvious that Brawn et al were already plotting to follow MS to Ferrari by the start of the 96 season. Do you seriously imagine that they were going to bust a gut to help a team and the 2 drivers they were about to leave???? No they did the bare minimum. Some of their tactical advice now seems strange in retrospect. For example Alesi qualified second at Spain 96 but was advised to use a mixed set up. Schumacher qualified lower down (sixth I think) but used full wet set up. Could Brawn have already been secretly advising MS in anticipation of a reunion??

Did you deliberately leave out the podium positions from your stats?? You'll find that Berger and Alesi scored a high number of podiums and kept Benneton around 3rd for 96 and 97, admittedly not as good as in Schumacher's days but not bad. The real decline came from 1998 onwards when they inexplicably went for an all youth policy. If they had had a combined Alesi Fisichella team they might have done better.

[Todd]

Red 27,

11 wins, 2 championships in '95
0 wins in '96

That is a huge bomb. You are also wrong about Ross and Rory. Ross didn't sign until the end of '96 and Ferrari didn't know they needed Rory to partner Ross until Ross was on the job in '97. Rory frequently lamented that he spent the '97 season trying to develop a crappy car designed by Barnard against a superior Benetton designed by himself. In case you didn't know, the '97 Benetton B197 was designed by Rory Byrne. You insult them by saying that they didn't perform their jobs to the best of their abilities in the last year of their contracts. Or is that Ferrari's problem too? Those guys have both wanted to retire and been resigned at the ends of existing contracts. Did they do sh*t work for Ferrari because they didn't know they were coming back?

[smarty]

What about '96 Williams? I believe it was a much faster and better car compared to its predecessor. That may explain the failure of Benetton, which almost stopped its development then. At the same time Ferrari started to take fast progress with the joining of Schumacher.

[Antony1]

I think its fair to say bentton were an average team before michael joined.

4 wins from 168 starts is pretty average

michael comes along and wins 19 in 68 starts
Then after he leaves 1 win from about 60 starts

Thats not coincidence,thats pure michael schumacher.

An example of how he can build a team.

JV now has his chance to show us he can do the same.
Pity he cant even get a podium yet.

[goGoGene]

So are you saying that Ferrari will fall apart post-shumie, I think we have some RedCar fans that might disagree.

ggg

[Antony1]

I think when he leaves they will struggle to get wins.
Sort of how they struggled in the 5 years before he arrived:)

[Red27]

Todd -Perhaps I have read too many conspiracy theories on this BB so I decided to create one for myself. If you actually read my post you'll see I recognise the excellence of Michael Schumacher. But I don't want people peddling the line that Bennetton went into free fall with Berger and Alesi. Only one win in 96/97 but there were lots of might have beens with seconds and thirds. In 1996 Ferrari scored 70 constructor's points to Benneton's 68. Hardly a wide gap is it?? The gap widened in 1997 with 102 against 67. But Benetton were still third in the WCC. The decline came from 1998 onwards.

[Antony1]

11 wins in 95

0 wins in 96


Hmmmmmm looks to me the decline started right after michael left:)

[Red27]

Anthony, Do you always labour obvious points? Have you ever tried discussing subtle issues?

[GoAlesi]

What happened to Benetton certainly is a shining example of Schumacher's ability, but I'm well over that what with 6734 other threads already discussing that subject. Slightly OT, but what is more interesting what exactly happened to Benetton when Schumacher left...

The real problem was that Berger and Alesi arrived at Benetton expecting a great car, and likewise the Benetton team expected their new drivers to be able to pick up where Schumacher left of in what was after all an evolution of the championship winning car from the previous year. Unfortunately neither of the drivers could handle the Benetton's nervous handling, especially after spending the previous season in the 95 Ferrari which although suffered from a lack of grip, had excellent handling. Benetton now found themselves in the position of having to rearrange the team around Alesi and Berger, however neither of these two are known for their focus and ability to work with others and the relationship between them and Briatore quickly soured while the technical staff were left wondering what had happened. Then came the exodus of several key staff, with Berger, Alesi and Briatore following suit a year later.

All this was a shame because as Red27 points out the B196 was actually pretty competitive in the hands of Berger and Alesi. It may have proved to be a solid starting point towards re-establishing the team post-Schumacher had they approached the season with a more realistic attitude. It lost ground ground to the Williams with the high cockpit surrounds and was down on bhp due to poor airflow but theres no doubt Schumacher would've challenged for the title in it.

What I think killed Benettons 1996 season happened way back at the 1995 Brazilian GP when Johnny Herbert was allegedly denied access to Schumacher's data. One thing lead to another and Herbert and Benetton parted ways at the end of the season. Had Benetton shown some foresight and worked constructively with Herbert, he could have helped develop the car in the right direction during the winter rather then have Alesi and Berger spend most of the off-season trying to keep the car on the road. With Herbert and Berger they may have started the season off in better shape with one driver already familiar with the team, and could well have beaten Ferrari to 2nd in the WCC. Though I doubt that any replacement for Schumacher whoever it was could of brought Benetton another championship before Renault withdrew at the end of 97.

I think Ferrari have learned from Benettons mistake, which is why they signed Barrichello. When Schumacher leaves Ferrari will certainly have some work to do, but with Barrichello they will have contiunity and a driver with potential. It can be done, in 94 Williams recovered quickly from adapting poorly to the changed regulations and the tragic lose of Senna. McLaren also only took 3 seasons to get back to the top of the podium. They, Ron Dennis in particular, certainly felt every one of those 3 years but in hindsight to take only 3 seasons was quite an effort, not least considering they had a change in engine supplier and Hakkinens accident.

[Pascal]

GoAlesi,

I think you've raised interesting points here, but from what I remember from the 1995/1996 off-season, Alesi and Berger had diverging opinions when they tried the 1995 car. While both drivers agreed that it was a difficult car to drive, Alesi actually did pretty well with it, and didn't mind its oversteering tendencies since it matched his own driving style. Berger, on the other hand, crashed several times in testing. That left the Benetton engineers with conflicting feedback for the first time in years. The B196, with its lengthened wheelbase for extra stability, was therefore an attempt at compromise that never satisfied anyone completely.
And wasn't it in 1996 that Rory Byrne left the Benetton team mid-season to open his diving school in Thailand? So while he indeed penned the car before the season started, he was not involved in its later developments.

I would like to add one last word on the history of Toleman/Benetton. This team has had a long history of being successful with one driver. They started to make themselves noticed in 1983 with Derek Warwick, but it's the 1984 season with a rookie Ayrton Senna which brought them in the spotlight. The Byrne chassis proved on par with bigger names, and only the poor reliability of the Hart engine kept them from doing better. Then came the 1985 debacle when the team lost its tyre supply. Benetton bought the struggling outfit, and in 1986, Gerhard Berger scored their first victory, with a car powered by an outdated BMW powerplant. In 1987 and 1988, while no victories were scored, the team was still on the way up, despite their Ford engine lacking power to challenge the Honda-equipped cars. In 1989, Naninni scored his first victory for the team, and the year that followed, they were by then, with two more victories, clearly established as the third best team in Formula 1 behind McLaren-Honda and Ferrari. Sadly, the team was also left shaken by the loss of Alessandro Nannini as their driver, and had to call the ubiquitous Roberto Moreno to the rescue.
In 1991, they of course uncovered the Schumacher gem and swiftly snatched him from Jordan, but it took the German 3 more years to become the dominant force in Formula 1 that he is now. Things rarely happen overnight in this sport, and Michael Schumacher certainly didn't join a second-rate team by the time Briatore spotted him. I personally believe that Naninni could have been a great driver at Benetton if he hadn't had his horrendous helicopter accident, and I suspect that he saw that himself when he turned down the offer Ferrari made him to drive for the Scuderia.

[Merlin]

So how many WDC´s has Ferrari achieved? And how many with Schumacher?

[tak]

People are quick to credit MS with the rise of Benneton--don't forget a certain team manager Flavio Briatore, who brought the team leadership and most importantly the MONEY that made it happen. Also remember that Tom Walkinshaw brought many technical resources (TWR) to Benneton in 90 or 91. Walkinshaw left I think in 95, and took TWR with him. Much of Bennetons fall in 96 was the loss of MS. Part was the loss of TWR. Part was gaining new drivers.

Remember, to win, all aspects of the team have to be there--driver, engine, chassis. Look how Williams suffered in 88 when they lost Honda and again in 98 when Renault pulled out. Look how bad Ferrari did in 91 when they tried the "2 floor" chassis that didn't work. All of these instances teams went from contenders to zero wins.

[tom]

antony.
"Pity he cant even get a podium yet."

you seriosly think schumacher could've got a podium so far at bar?

when?

what race could he have been on the podium.
???
no i really want to hear your resonse hear fella.

you can't go rubbishing villeneuve for not making the podium in that battleship.

the top 4 places are always filled by ferrari and mclaren, how the hell is someone in a bar meant to get through there???

no really , when could he make the podium??

[Antony1]

Not only could he have got a podium he would of won races in the bar.


he would be at least 30 seconds ahead of both bar drivers by the end of a race,thats podiums for sure.

Man maybe you are blind but your hero JV can barely out pace zonta over a full race distance,schuey would be miles ahead

[MacFan]

Antony

You must have mistaken this for the "Fantasy F1 BB", because suggesting that MS is that much faster than JV without any facts to back it up, and given that JV has in most people's opinion been dragging the BAR along faster than it cared to go, is pure fantasy.

[Silver Arrow]

Originally posted by Antony1
Not only could he have got a podium he would of won races in the bar.


he would be at least 30 seconds ahead of both bar drivers by the end of a race,thats podiums for sure.

is that so?

[MN]

According to Gerard Crombac, a Swiss motor sports journalist who lives in France.

1994:
MS won the driver's title by driving illegal Benetton-Ford.

1995:
If Benetton did not have the Renault engine, MS would not be even close to DH to compete WDC. Therefor punting DH incident would not happened and DH would have won the WDC title by far.

Crombac starts his writing by saying "Here is the story probably only known in France.... ".

Crombac writes, Renault F1 engines were used as a political tool by top French politician Francois Mitterrand.
Mitterrand thought that France and Germany shoud lead Europe Union and he wanted Helmut Kohl to be the German leader.
Around same time, Elf was about to buyout a German oil company and some Elf money had gone to Kohl for his election campain. Mitterrand and Elf thought that it would be a good idea to have German F1 driver in the loop. Elf and Renault were very close that time and Benetton ended up getting Renault engines.

Maybe someone from France could expand on this but it sounds like no credit to MS.....
[p][Edited by MN on 08-20-2000]

[AD]

MS would probably get at least a podium in that BAR in a wet race. That's BARs best chance of getting a podium but it's a pity that their driver is one of the least impressive on the grid when it comes to driving fast in a wet track.

[Antony1]

Macfan i do have FACTS to back my claims


In the 2 races that JV and zonta have both finished together this year JV has on average been only 8 seconds ahead at the finish.

Now is that remarkable speed from JV??????

In my other thread i showed you that michael over 4 years averaged 50 SECONDS ahead of irvine over a race distance

And irvine is faster than zonta!!
Zonta can barely stay in F1 lol

So as you can see its pretty obvious michael would destroy zonta......and JV in a race trim..

Just accept these facts because you know they make sense and they are very logical

[Pascal]

I have a simple question:

Why are we to suppose that a former F3000 champion, who went on to be also GT1 prototype WDC with Mercedes the following year, is not worthy of Formula 1?

I'm not really sure we've had any opportunity to see Zonta's true worth, besides the fact that he has kept close to Villeneuve who, as far as F1 speed goes, is a better known entity.

[Antony1]

Hes too slow in qualifying.

In races hes close to JV

[Pascal]

Is that all? That 'evidence' seems a bit flimsy to me for the kind of definitive statement you're used to...

[Antony1]

Call it flimsy but it does make sense doesnt it and its very logical dont you agree?

Jv on average less that 10 seconds faster than Zonta

Michael average 50 seconds faster thna irvine (over 4 year period)


Now lets give zonta the benifit of the doubt and say hes as fast as irvine.

What do you find wrong and incorrect in the above logic

I think you dont like the result of the logic thats why you are complaining.

The problem is its so obvious its not even argueable

I would never argue against such obvious factors i wouldnt want to look stupid

[Pascal]

Still, on what definite basis can you accurately compare Zonta with Irvine as far as their respective speed is concerned? Have you ever seen them drive the same car?

Without this kind of evidence, your reasoning is far from being watertight, in my humble opinion.

[Antony1]

Well i cant obviously say FOR SURE if irvine is faster than zonta but i think i can say that in all probability they are roughly the same speed.and thats being kind to zonta who has shown little speed in his time in F1.


I think most people would agree that at best zonta is no better than irvine.Irvines not the one struggling to stay in F1 remember

[Pascal]

Originally posted by Antony1
Irvines not the one struggling to stay in F1 remember

May I ask what the hell tells you that Irvine won't be struggling as much as Zonta is when his contract with Jaguar expires? Anyway, the Brazilian is still under contract with Mercedes, and is likely to end up in Panis' mothball, waiting for better days.

Another question for you since you seem to have so many answers that keep eluding other people: do you think likely that Zonta got perfectly equal treatment with his teammate in what remains an inexperienced team?

[Antony1]

Here we go again the equal treatment excuses

Irvine never said he wasnt getting equal cars to michael

Thats what counts on the track

fighting a losing arguement pascal

[Pascal]

Antony1, I think you may have to change your glasses...

Where the hell did I mention Irvine in my last question to you? I'm not debating the Irishman's talent with you, but rather Zonta's. For an argument to be won or lost, it has to be understood first!

[tom]

thats it !!!!!!
LISTEN TOO ME !!!

ad said this

"MS would probably get at least a podium in that BAR in a wet race. That's BARs best chance of getting a podium but it's a pity that their driver is one of the least impressive on the grid when it comes to driving fast in a wet track."

and villeneuve would have been on the fu**en podium at montreal 2000, didn't you guys watch villeneuve at montreal he was homing in on dc's mac after bar stuffed up his pitstop, vileneuve was miles ahead of fissy there before they stuffed his strategy........the fact is that if bar had done a good wet strategy like benneton did for fissy...VILLENEUVE WOULD HAVE BEEN ON THE PODIUM ......

thats the only race he could've but bar ruined his chances....villeneuve was very fast in the wet at montreal this year, he was all over the kerbs.

laugh all you want at what i've just said "villeneuve was great in the wet"

but watch the race again, then see who's laughing... !!

"MS would've won a race in the bar...."

OH PLEASE

open your mind a bit antony.let the fact's flow in....

[Antony1]

Yes villeneuvre was fast in the wet at montreal

Imagine then how fast michael would of been in that bar:)

[Pascal]

Antony1, would you care to answer my original question, please? (Hint: the one about Zonta);)

[Antony1]

Linus you think maybe Zonta is not getting equal treatment to JV.

Well considering hes very close to jaques in racing conditions i dont think that says much about JV.

michael blows his teammates away 10 times worse and they have equal cars

Anything else?

[Pascal]

Antony1,

Firstly, I still don't see anything in your post that looks remotely like an answer to my question...

Secondly, this may come as a shock to you, but my name is not Linus!

[Antony1]

I did answer your question,obviously you didnt understand

[Pascal]

Hmmm... The original question was:

Originally posted by Pascal
Do you think likely that Zonta got perfectly equal treatment with his teammate in what remains an inexperienced team?

Antony1, would you be kind enough to point me to your answer to it?

[tom]

antony !,

"Yes villeneuvre was fast in the wet at montreal"

"Imagine then how fast michael would of been in that bar"

thats all you've got to say about it ?? :"imagine"

you haven't got any facts behind it, just the fact that you THINK schuey would've been even quicker???

you're not quite as intelligent as you think you are sorry pal..

i dunno how pascal's managed to hold himself and stay so polite to a ______ like yourself...??

how do you manage pascal?

[Nikolas Garth]

Tom,
Pascal practised on you.;)

[MacFan]

Originally posted by Antony1
Macfan i do have FACTS to back my claims


In the 2 races that JV and zonta have both finished together this year JV has on average been only 8 seconds ahead at the finish.

Now is that remarkable speed from JV??????

In my other thread i showed you that michael over 4 years averaged 50 SECONDS ahead of irvine over a race distance

And irvine is faster than zonta!!
Zonta can barely stay in F1 lol

So as you can see its pretty obvious michael would destroy zonta......and JV in a race trim..

Just accept these facts because you know they make sense and they are very logical

No you don't have facts to back your claims, you only have conjecture and speculation. You don't know for a FACT how fast anybody currently in F1 is against your hero. It is doubtful whether any of MS' teammates has had equal equipment and support within the team since Johnny Herbert, and he only had it for 2 or 3 races. Sweeping generalistations such as yours betray a very shallow understanding of F1.

If, for example, driver A is faster than driver B one season, and driver B has been faster than driver C at some time in the past, it is perfectly possible that driver C will go faster than driver A in the same team, under the right circumstances. I appreciate that this may be too complicated for you to understand, but trust me, it's true.

[tom]

ahahaha, i see nick garth...i see now.

and antony, rubens finished 2 tenths behind schumi at montreal this year , is that "a great acheievment" for schuey????