Jump to content


Photo

The Winter Testing 05/06 Thread


  • Please log in to reply
4768 replies to this topic

#1 The Quiet One

The Quiet One
  • Member

  • 88 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 06 November 2005 - 00:59

I hope to start the discussion on winter testing. I am surprised that one has not started as Ferrari have already tested at Vallelunga. Most Teams will start in December at Jerez. It is great to have that info on the front page of Atlas (It will always be Atlas for me).

Advertisement

#2 vsubravet

vsubravet
  • Member

  • 2,226 posts
  • Joined: September 03

Posted 06 November 2005 - 06:42

Yeah, I was surprised too that nobody has started posting on the winter testing. From the testing that Ferrari carried out and FM's statements it looks like the Scarlet team are way ahead of their rivals. They seemed to have got the grip on the new V8 Engine and that is indeed a massive step forward. If the rest of the teams, especially McLaren and Renault, have any sense they ought to start testing - WITHOUT ANY TESTING LIMITS - and try to sort out the 2006 car issues. McLaren will really have to step up their game as far as their reliabilty is concerned. Toyota, I suspect, are going to be a major force next year. It will be interesting to follow the Winter Testing this year.

Vijay

#3 stardust

stardust
  • Member

  • 67 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 06 November 2005 - 08:56

Briatore said in an interview that has no sense testing engines on the old cars adapted for it.
Engine dyno is much more better and much less exspensive.

http://www.f1racing....hp?newsID=98816

#4 Mauseri

Mauseri
  • Member

  • 7,644 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 06 November 2005 - 09:03

Originally posted by stardust
Briatore said in an interview that has no sense testing engines on the old cars adapted for it.
Engine dyno is much more better and much less exspensive.

http://www.f1racing....hp?newsID=98816

Renault budget isn't one of the biggest? They certainly did good job with their resources!

#5 carbonfibre

carbonfibre
  • Member

  • 6,745 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 06 November 2005 - 10:00

Originally posted by stardust
Briatore said in an interview that has no sense testing engines on the old cars adapted for it.
Engine dyno is much more better and much less exspensive.

http://www.f1racing....hp?newsID=98816

Briatore can say many things but the only way you know for sure is when you are testing the engine in the real thing.

#6 xype

xype
  • Member

  • 3,519 posts
  • Joined: September 04

Posted 06 November 2005 - 10:05

Originally posted by carbonfibre
Briatore can say many things but the only way you know for sure is when you are testing the engine in the real thing.



In an old chassis? Briatore is right, the only reason to test the engine in a 2005 car is to show off or get driver feedback - but for that, waiting for the 2006 makes sense, too.

#7 Ghostrider

Ghostrider
  • Member

  • 16,214 posts
  • Joined: July 99

Posted 06 November 2005 - 10:07

Originally posted by carbonfibre
Briatore can say many things but the only way you know for sure is when you are testing the engine in the real thing.


Renault won both WDC and WCC this year, which probably should be taken as an indication that they know what they are doing.

#8 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 41,845 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 06 November 2005 - 10:10

Originally posted by carbonfibre
Briatore can say many things but the only way you know for sure is when you are testing the engine in the real thing.


Isnt that what FB is saying?

#9 carbonfibre

carbonfibre
  • Member

  • 6,745 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 06 November 2005 - 10:49

Originally posted by Clatter


Isnt that what FB is saying?

In a way but i think testing a engine in a car on a real circuit is much better then testing it on the dyno all the time.

And i think the other teams also test there engine's on the dyno every day, with a dyno you can simulate many things but it's just not the real deal.

#10 Pumpkin

Pumpkin
  • Member

  • 369 posts
  • Joined: July 05

Posted 06 November 2005 - 11:00

Originally posted by The Quiet One
I hope to start the discussion on winter testing. I am surprised that one has not started as Ferrari have already tested at Vallelunga. Most Teams will start in December at Jerez. It is great to have that info on the front page of Atlas (It will always be Atlas for me).


There was a thread started but it was a bit early http://forums.autosp...&threadid=83268
I know this because of my great contribution at the bottom of the page :lol:

#11 quasi C

quasi C
  • Member

  • 2,110 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 06 November 2005 - 11:02

In Ferrari's case they did some Bridgestone tyre testing too. Also they wanted to get a comparison between the F2004(M) and F2005 in terms of aero and weight distribution in order to give them data for the F2006. Anyway I guess it can't hurt to get ~1300KM on a new engine as early as possible in the season, I think Toyota started the earliest when they debuted their V8 in June/July time IIRC.

#12 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 41,845 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 06 November 2005 - 12:35

Originally posted by carbonfibre
In a way but i think testing a engine in a car on a real circuit is much better then testing it on the dyno all the time.

And i think the other teams also test there engine's on the dyno every day, with a dyno you can simulate many things but it's just not the real deal.


As an engine builder Renault have done a damn fine job over the years, so I think its one of the occasions when you have to accept that they probably know better than you.

#13 cavallinö

cavallinö
  • Member

  • 808 posts
  • Joined: October 05

Posted 06 November 2005 - 12:48

I think for vibration testing and all, testing the engine on a modifiedchassis would help?

#14 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 41,845 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 06 November 2005 - 13:11

Originally posted by cavallinö
I think for vibration testing and all, testing the engine on a modifiedchassis would help?


The engine is an integral part of the chassis, so testing it in a modified chassis is not the same.

#15 Calorus

Calorus
  • Member

  • 4,061 posts
  • Joined: June 05

Posted 06 November 2005 - 13:24

Originally posted by Clatter


The engine is an integral part of the chassis, so testing it in a modified chassis is not the same.


It wouldn't be the same, but in the same way as teams use hyrbrid chassis to test out all othe components, the engine will still show the spikes where it's most likely to induce resonace if not properly damped...

#16 N3NP

N3NP
  • Member

  • 103 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 06 November 2005 - 14:54

It will be interesting to see which ( new ) drivers will make their appearance at what team.

Who is already confirmed as a testdriver and who is in the frame for testdriver for next season ?

Anyone with facts, thoughts, rumours ??????

#17 MortenF1

MortenF1
  • Member

  • 23,142 posts
  • Joined: June 01

Posted 06 November 2005 - 15:03

Red Bull wont test much either, untill mid- or late January, when they get their new engines, and have their RB2 ready.

#18 coyoteBR

coyoteBR
  • Member

  • 4,085 posts
  • Joined: January 99

Posted 07 November 2005 - 19:59

Ok, I am not sure if this is the best thread for it, but...
I am in a big business event in Brazil, and there is a Williams on display at Petrobras stand.
Of course, I went there and made the question about next year. BMW or Williams?

They made the right choice. Will stay with Williams :clap:

#19 Ross Stonefeld

Ross Stonefeld
  • Member

  • 68,607 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 07 November 2005 - 20:00

They were never going to go to BMW, they're having enough problems trying to workout the Castrol and Petronas conflicts

Advertisement

#20 quasi C

quasi C
  • Member

  • 2,110 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 11 November 2005 - 18:54

Turns out Renault will test with a V8 before january. They will run with a V10-cut to 8 cylinders. So maybe Briatore had a re-think or he just wants to "show off like some other teams"...

#21 Timstr11

Timstr11
  • Member

  • 11,112 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 11 November 2005 - 19:01

Originally posted by quasi C
Turns out Renault will test with a V8 before january. They will run with a V10-cut to 8 cylinders. So maybe Briatore had a re-think or he just wants to "show off like some other teams"...

erm...they will run a restricted V10.
The V8 will only run in the new car.

#22 carbonfibre

carbonfibre
  • Member

  • 6,745 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 11 November 2005 - 19:03

Originally posted by race addicted
Red Bull wont test much either, untill mid- or late January, when they get their new engines, and have their RB2 ready.

They only get their engine's then? Ferrari is already testing them for 2 months now and i believe Horner said that they would recieve their Ferrari engine's in late november or early december.

Here is a quote from an article on this site it's dated 7th june 2005.

With Formula One switching to V8 engines for 2006, Ferrari are still working on the development of their power units, and Red Bull are not due to receive their first batch of customer engines until November at the earliest.

So the Austrian-owned squad are considering plans to build an interim car in order to test the power-units out before their 2006 car hits the track in January.




And since Ferrari are running 2 months ahead of schedule with the new engine i suppose that december will be the month Red Bull will recieve the first Ferrari V8 engine's.

#23 quasi C

quasi C
  • Member

  • 2,110 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 11 November 2005 - 19:37

timstr11: Around the time when Toyota and Ferrari were first running with V8s or cut V10 FB said it was pointless until the new chassis, that the dyno could simulate everything etc. It was in an interview with Autosprint.

#24 carbonfibre

carbonfibre
  • Member

  • 6,745 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 11 November 2005 - 19:41

Flavio can say a lot of things but i bet he would like to run a V8 already on the track. With dyno's you can simulate a lot off things but when you put the engine in the car that's where you can really see if it all fits together.

The same thing went wrong at McLaren. The mercedes engine was ok on the dyno but once in the MP4/19 it broke down very often because it had some serious vibration issues with the chassis.

#25 Timstr11

Timstr11
  • Member

  • 11,112 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 12 November 2005 - 10:08

Originally posted by quasi C
timstr11: Around the time when Toyota and Ferrari were first running with V8s or cut V10 FB said it was pointless until the new chassis, that the dyno could simulate everything etc. It was in an interview with Autosprint.

...and that is still the plan. Renault will have a january introduction of their new chassis with the new engine. To create a hybrid car, as other teams, is more complicated for them because they currently have a 72degree engine interfacing with the chassis whereas all other teams already have 90degree engines. It's a matter of weighing the benefits against the costs.

#26 quasi C

quasi C
  • Member

  • 2,110 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 12 November 2005 - 10:56

I know this, maybe we're getting mixed up. FB, at the time, said they wouldn't need a V8 (or V10 cut) running before the new car as they had no need to show off like some other teams (referring, presumably, to Ferrari).

#27 carbonfibre

carbonfibre
  • Member

  • 6,745 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 12 November 2005 - 10:58

Well what is showing off? I think testing a completely new engine early is not showing off but being smart.

You can't start soon enough so you can sort out the initial problems a engine might have.

#28 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 41,845 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 12 November 2005 - 11:06

Originally posted by carbonfibre
Flavio can say a lot of things but i bet he would like to run a V8 already on the track. With dyno's you can simulate a lot off things but when you put the engine in the car that's where you can really see if it all fits together.

The same thing went wrong at McLaren. The mercedes engine was ok on the dyno but once in the MP4/19 it broke down very often because it had some serious vibration issues with the chassis.


And thats probably the point.

Putting the engine into a hybrid car may show up problems that will not be present in a car designed for the new engine, or may possibly show erroneous problems.

#29 carbonfibre

carbonfibre
  • Member

  • 6,745 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 12 November 2005 - 11:22

True that might be the case but i still think it's smart to also run the engine on the dyno and ontrack.

#30 Calorus

Calorus
  • Member

  • 4,061 posts
  • Joined: June 05

Posted 12 November 2005 - 15:10

Originally posted by carbonfibre
True that might be the case but i still think it's smart to also run the engine on the dyno and ontrack.


I think it's fairly simple to mimic the circuit on a modern F1 dyno, including known loads and resonances for a given Chassis. However, it's all but impossible to predict resonance of a chassis other than by building it, so nice to have perhaps, but ultimately pretty worthless as you can't make any structural alterations based on the findings.

#31 quasi C

quasi C
  • Member

  • 2,110 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 12 November 2005 - 15:24

Couldn't you change the way the engine is installed on the chassis or the location of ancilliaries etc? I'm sure there's a reason teams are running V8s early other than tyre testing..

#32 carbonfibre

carbonfibre
  • Member

  • 6,745 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 12 November 2005 - 15:27

Originally posted by quasi C
Couldn't you change the way the engine is installed on the chassis or the location of ancilliaries etc? I'm sure there's a reason teams are running V8s early other than tyre testing..

Yes you can chance the suspension points etc which maybe gives you less vibrations etc.

Trust me it's worth testing it out even in a intrim car.

#33 MortenF1

MortenF1
  • Member

  • 23,142 posts
  • Joined: June 01

Posted 12 November 2005 - 15:36

Originally posted by carbonfibre
They only get their engine's then? Ferrari is already testing them for 2 months now and i believe Horner said that they would recieve their Ferrari engine's in late november or early december.

And since Ferrari are running 2 months ahead of schedule with the new engine i suppose that december will be the month Red Bull will recieve the first Ferrari V8 engine's.


Hmm, thanks, that's good to know. I had heard that they wouldn't recieve engines till after new-year.

#34 Calorus

Calorus
  • Member

  • 4,061 posts
  • Joined: June 05

Posted 12 November 2005 - 15:37

Originally posted by carbonfibre
Yes you can chance the suspension points etc which maybe gives you less vibrations etc.

Trust me it's worth testing it out even in a intrim car.


The only logic is so that the first car you race is the second car you build. This only really owes anything to the Toyota/Lola pre entry test mule than anything else. The new chassis are unlikely to have anything in common with these particular breeds of mules...

#35 carbonfibre

carbonfibre
  • Member

  • 6,745 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 12 November 2005 - 15:38

Originally posted by race addicted


Hmm, thanks, that's good to know. I had heard that they wouldn't recieve engines till after new-year.

It might be right if things have changed but as far as i know they will recieve their engine's late november early december. :)

#36 MortenF1

MortenF1
  • Member

  • 23,142 posts
  • Joined: June 01

Posted 12 November 2005 - 15:50

...Which is good, and makes sense, especially as Ferrari is ahead of schedule(as so often before, when new rules are introduced, they have been able to get a head-start). In addition, Ferrari would also gain from having Red Bull test their engine. But I had heard, not too long ago, that they wouldn't get their new engines before January. Maybe it wasn't really related to the engine, but to the gearbox? Aren't they supposed to design and manufacture their own unit?

#37 carbonfibre

carbonfibre
  • Member

  • 6,745 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 12 November 2005 - 16:24

No idea if the deal also includes a gearbox. Normally they make their own gearbox (Sauber always had apart from 2003).

And yes Sauber also got the 2005 engines last year even before Ferrari tested them in their new car because it couldnt be fitted in the F2004M, so Ferrari isnt that shy about giving the engine's away early. :)

#38 peroa

peroa
  • Member

  • 10,702 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 12 November 2005 - 16:34

Originally posted by carbonfibre
No idea if the deal also includes a gearbox. Normally they make their own gearbox (Sauber always had apart from 2003).

And yes Sauber also got the 2005 engines last year even before Ferrari tested them in their new car because it couldnt be fitted in the F2004M, so Ferrari isnt that shy about giving the engine's away early. :)



Sauber only got a modified 2004 engine, not the 2005 engine.

Sauber used the engine from the F 2004M the whole year.

#39 Timstr11

Timstr11
  • Member

  • 11,112 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 26 November 2005 - 10:00

Ferrari's disobedience aside, winter testing starts in earnest coming Monday with McLaren, Toyota and Sauber.
This as we build-up to the extremely exciting launch season. :clap:

Any news who will test for Sauber apart from Heidfeld?

Advertisement

#40 carbonfibre

carbonfibre
  • Member

  • 6,745 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 26 November 2005 - 10:02

Originally posted by peroa



Sauber only got a modified 2004 engine, not the 2005 engine.

Sauber used the engine from the F 2004M the whole year.

Are you sure about that? As far as i know Sauber got the new engine.

edit: according to the official Formula one yearbook 2005 Sauber got the Ferrari 055 engine the same engine Ferrari used in the F2005.

So as i said before: Sauber got the new engine even before Ferrari was able to run it.

#41 Keffo

Keffo
  • Member

  • 978 posts
  • Joined: October 04

Posted 26 November 2005 - 10:19

Originally posted by Timstr11
Ferrari's disobedience aside, winter testing starts in earnest coming Monday with McLaren, Toyota and Sauber.
This as we build-up to the extremely exciting launch season. :clap:

Any news who will test for Sauber apart from Heidfeld?

just Heidfeld, no Villeneuve or other drivers

#42 Timstr11

Timstr11
  • Member

  • 11,112 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 26 November 2005 - 11:02

Originally posted by Keffo
just Heidfeld, no Villeneuve or other drivers

Come to think of it, tyre testing will be a bit difficult for both BMW-Sauber and Willams-Cosworth as they both will have to do tyre testing in a heavily modified chassis. While other teams that have continuity of engine can 'simply' detune the V10 in the current chassis to have a known base for tyre testing.

#43 quasi C

quasi C
  • Member

  • 2,110 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 26 November 2005 - 11:38

Just a recap on the Ferrari bahrain test: 4 days with the predominant weather being Sunny at ~30C, bit rainy on day 2 though.

First 056 V8 engine (in an F2004M) successfully completes 1400KM and has a power of 700HP , in that heat that is quite impressive for this stage of the season IMO. They hope to have 750 HP by the time the season starts. A F2005 with a cut V10 was doing the tyre testing.

F2004M V8 - 1:34.455 - 1731KM
F2005V10-cut: 1:34.588 - 1366 KM

#44 MortenF1

MortenF1
  • Member

  • 23,142 posts
  • Joined: June 01

Posted 26 November 2005 - 13:23

700 HP is actually a disspointment I think. Cosworth is said to have 730 BHP already.

#45 quasi C

quasi C
  • Member

  • 2,110 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 26 November 2005 - 13:25

They haven't even track tested their engine yet though. Ferrari probably have a 730HP engine on the dyno too. As do all the other manufacturers I guess.

#46 peroa

peroa
  • Member

  • 10,702 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 26 November 2005 - 13:31

Originally posted by carbonfibre
Are you sure about that? As far as i know Sauber got the new engine.

edit: according to the official Formula one yearbook 2005 Sauber got the Ferrari 055 engine the same engine Ferrari used in the F2005.

So as i said before: Sauber got the new engine even before Ferrari was able to run it.


In a german forum we had a big "strong" debate about this untill a user decided to write an email to Sauber and they confirmed that they would use the engine from the F2004M the whole year.

I can give you the link if you want, where you can read the emails.

#47 carbonfibre

carbonfibre
  • Member

  • 6,745 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 26 November 2005 - 13:32

Sure i would like to have that. But im sticking to the official yearbook for now. :)

#48 MortenF1

MortenF1
  • Member

  • 23,142 posts
  • Joined: June 01

Posted 26 November 2005 - 13:33

Someone on this board e-mailed Sauber and asked, and indeed got an answer saying they used the engine from the F2004M.
................

Originally posted by quasi C
They haven't even track tested their engine yet though. Ferrari probably have a 730HP engine on the dyno too. As do all the other manufacturers I guess.


Cosworth has a certain V8-pedigree though, and as they got a small head-start on Ferrari, I would think that once they get their V8 in the Williams, and on track, it would produce more than "just" 700 HP.

Note that I wrote BHP on Cosworth.

#49 F1Champion

F1Champion
  • Member

  • 3,268 posts
  • Joined: September 01

Posted 26 November 2005 - 14:07

Originally posted by race addicted
Cosworth has a certain V8-pedigree though, and as they got a small head-start on Ferrari, I would think that once they get their V8 in the Williams, and on track, it would produce more than "just" 700 HP.

Note that I wrote BHP on Cosworth.


Plus they released footage of their engine hitting 20,000 RPM. Now whether this can actually be performed over a race distance isn't yet known, but Cosworth has loads of V8 experience.

So far engine manufacturers have been talking about 19,000 RPM and vibration difficulties. Maybe Cosworth have learnt how to get around this problem and get to 20,000 RPM.

#50 carbonfibre

carbonfibre
  • Member

  • 6,745 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 26 November 2005 - 14:33

Guys it's not all about HP here.

Ferrari is know for their allround engine, it lasts foreever and they have a great powercurve. A good powercurve is worth a lot more then having 10 HP more.