62 replies to this topic

[Cargo]

Interesting article in today's Times:

http://www.timesonli...1862211,00.html

and related:

http://www.timesonli...1862210,00.html

All that fuss over a chassis number :

[f1steveuk]

So as the man from the Times has done half a job, did the original have a chassis number, or the arguing over the registration plate (which can't be legal in Sweden anyway), he's not very clear on that point at all!

[Vitesse2]

I suppose DVLA come into the equation because both owners want to display their cars with the right registration plate. Even if they never run them on the road, they would still need to ensure that no other vehicle was displaying that number. Thus, if a road registration plate was issued, the original log book would presumably have recorded the chassis number. So that registration number would have to continue to be associated with the correct chassis number unless officially transferred or surrendered.

[ensign14]

You can have vanity plates in Sweden that say what you like, can't you? Mr Malmo chap could have BHL 120 in the blue-on-white...

[simon drabble]

this is not dissimilar to the dispute over the E Type CUT 7 - must be something to do with Jaguars!! Good job its not a Lotus 23b otherwise there would be about 5 claimants!

[Ted Walker]

I thought that the dispute was over the reg No"WTM 446" ?????????As an ex owner of the first CUT 7 E type what was that about Simon ?????

[simon drabble]

I was under the impression that there were 2 CUT 7's one in lightweight configuration the other one sold last year - they both I thought claim to be CUT 7 bit only one can carry the reg on the road.....
maybe I am wrong but if my understanding is right then although short of litigation its pretty similar
bet you wish you still had it ;-)

[f1steveuk]

Originally posted by Ted Walker
I thought that the dispute was over the reg No"WTM 446" ?????????As an ex owner of the first CUT 7 E type what was that about Simon ?????

So the car that has the chassis number linked to that reg should have it, but then one is in the UK, and one not. It could run and run!

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by simon drabble
I was under the impression that there were 2 CUT 7's one in lightweight configuration the other one sold last year - they both I thought claim to be CUT 7 bit only one can carry the reg on the road.....
maybe I am wrong but if my understanding is right then although short of litigation its pretty similar
bet you wish you still had it ;-)

OTTOMH I think there were three CUT7s, all raced in period by Dick Protheroe and all therefore, on the face of it, with a claim to the number.

[Charles Helps]

Apparently one or more of these cars (EDIT, the Listers,) featured in the film The Green Helmet Film may hold the key

[Ted Walker]

CUT 7 did appear on 3 E types but Protheroe retained the No after he sold the Low drag coupe and I think was owned by Mrs Protheroe.As long as it is now on one of the "CUT 7" thats all that matters.With regard to the Lister thing one would assume that WTM446 was last fitted to the Lister coupe which was road registered with that No ,long after the car was "written off " in a road accident.

[Ted Walker]

Sorry I meant to say the "knobbly car" was written off in the road accident.

[simon drabble]

Originally posted by Ted Walker
I thought that the dispute was over the reg No"WTM 446" ?????????As an ex owner of the first CUT 7 E type what was that about Simon ?????

Ted which one did you own? the low drag one is one of my favourite cars - absolutely stunning

[Tomas Karlsson]

So as the man from the Times has done half a job, did the original have a chassis number, or the arguing over the registration plate (which can't be legal in Sweden anyway), he's not very clear on that point at all!

According to a Swedish newspaper, they both have the same chassisnumber.

[Charles Helps]

Originally posted by Charles Helps
Apparently one or more of these cars (EDIT, the Listers,) featured in the film The Green Helmet Film may hold the key

I should have done some more research first - Cargo's second link didn't work when I tried it but now it seems that it was a red herring anyway as the '3 Jaguars' in The Green Helmet were apparently the Lister "WTM 446", a Tojeiro Jaguar and a D Type - see Jaguar Model Club - Caught on Camera. That seems to make more sense in those days than building replicas especially for the film. Apologies if you all knew this already, and can anyone who has seen the film confirm it?

Lotus were also great re-users of Registration Numbers in the 50s: HUD 139 appeared on Dick Steed's Mk VIII in 1954 and his Mk IX in 1955 and 9 EHX and XAR 11 both appeared on more than one car.

[David McKinney]

According to the 2005 edition of Doug Nye's Powered by Jaguar, reg WTM 446 was first applied in 1959 to a Costin-bodied car, c/no BHL126. Many years after the film crash, the remains were put together with a 'knobbly' body and this is the car owned by Lloyd.
The second WTM 446 was the Costin-designed Le Mans coupé, also apparently c/no BHL126, now with Svenby.

[David McKinney]

According to the 2005 edition of Doug Nye's [I]Powered by Jaguar[I], reg WTM 446 was first applied in 1959 to a Costin-bodied car, c/no BHL126. Many years after the film crash, the remains were put together with a 'knobbly' body and this is the car owned by Lloyd.
The second WTM 446 was the Costin-designed Le Mans coupé, also apparently c/no BHL126, now with Svenby.

[Andrew Fellowes]

Originally posted by Ted Walker
CUT 7 did appear on 3 E types but Protheroe retained the No after he sold the Low drag coupe and I think was owned by Mrs Protheroe.

Mrs Protheroe sold the low drag E to Robbie Gordon, David Wansbrough and John Fellowes. I am sure it was registered for the road in case the Gordon Keeble tow car broke down but I have no idea what the number was, I will ask but I agree with you Ted, it hardly matters which one its on now. I do remember that even with the E type in tow it was possible to out accelerate most other cars on the road in those days.

[David McKinney]

CUT7s
1) Protheroe 1962. Then Clive Castle as a road car reg 636CJU. Raced in recent years by Nick Whale & Ian Guest
2) Protheroe 1963, then Roger Mac (256CJU). Owned by John Lewis for some years (I think as 256DJU, but it might be my eyesight)
3) The Low Drag Coupé. I think still CUT7 when owned by Robbie Gordon etc, but 738EUT with Michael Wright late ‘60s. CUT7 again for last dozen or so years. Owned by Viscount Cowdray

The number CUT7 was also on a Low Drag replica, but I think this has now become 5916WK.

[Andrew Fellowes]

Interesting, never realised that there were 3.

I remember when the low drag was about to be bought. I think John drew the short straw to talk to Mrs Protheroe, a sad time.

[Paul Medici]

From Sports Cars Illustrated - September 1959






Certainly not the car in question, but since the topic is Lister-Jags I thought someone might enjoy this. She is probably one of the New York City - based Cunningham team cars up for sale.
.
.
.
.

[Ted Walker]

David . The costin bodied car you refer is surely the "space frame" car when owned by Jim Diggory ,prior to it being re-bodied as a coupe for Le Mans ????.Simon I owned the first CUT 7, that now looks a dogs dinner,fitted with Lt Wt E wheels etc.

[David McKinney]

No, the Diggory spaceframe car became the one I describe as the "Costin-designed Le Mans coupe"

[simon drabble]

Originally posted by Ted Walker
David . The costin bodied car you refer is surely the "space frame" car when owned by Jim Diggory ,prior to it being re-bodied as a coupe for Le Mans ????.Simon I owned the first CUT 7, that now looks a dogs dinner,fitted with Lt Wt E wheels etc.

Michael Pearson's one - the one I like! well it seems that one mans meat and all that, your dogs dinner is my dream car!

[David McKinney]

Michael Pearson's CUT7 is not the ex-Ted Walker car...

[simon drabble]

you mean the "other one" with the unusual back window that sold earlier this year/last year? Ok I was confused! Well the Pearson one I really like - I think its stunning
So are you saying that one is the "real" one?

[Ted Walker]

David THATS WHAT I SAID. The Diggory space frame car became the Lumsden Le Mans car. Simon they are both "real ones".My one was the 4th ever E Type fixed head modifield by Protheroe who fitted a D Head Webers Mk9 front discs, The Low drag Coupe was built up from another car.Funnily enough there is a connection between the Lister and the Low Drag coupe. they were both owned by the same lady,and driven by the same person who wrote off the Lister on the road. After the low drag coupe was sold she had a GT40.

[David McKinney]

But it's not what I said
I used the term "Costin-bodied" to refer to the earlier WTM446, and "Costin-designed" for the Diggory spaceframe/Le Mans coupe/Svenby job
I could have made it clearer, but was trying not to get bogged down in too much detail
Serves me right

[Paul Parker]

Oh dear oh dear! The three CUT 7s are well documented, although the second car mentioned by DM with the 256 reg I'm sure I've seen as a dark blue roadster raced by Roger Mac during the 1980s. Also wasn't this the car (or reg no) that Al Unser Snr drove on one of those mock historic Alpine Rallys circa 1989 and the car that Nigel Mansell practiced for a Silverstone AMOC meeting in July 1981?

As for the Listers I can only say that when I tried to sort out the chassis number conundrum surrounding BHL 126 for my Jaguar at Le Mans book I quickly realised that this was something best left alone so I omitted any reference to said number. However it might be of interest to those on this thread to know that the space frame Lister coupe's registration number WTM 446 was used only for identification purposes for the benefit of customs, it was never road registered with that number.

[Ted Walker]

Paul Beg to disagree with you BUT I have photos of the car I took at Prescott in the 70s when the car was owned by Alan Harvey. He drove it there on the road and it has the tax disc in the window. I aslo think that Neil Corner might have used it on the road as well during his brief ownership.(we are talking about the Le Mans Coupe)

[bradbury west]

Ted;

Quite right. Some years ago I bought a super 1/43 model of WTM from Brian Harvey at Grand Prix Models, and we yarned about the car for some time, and he told me that his brother, see above, had had the car and ran it on the road tween hillclimbs etc.

The late Chris Harvey, in his Jaguars in Competition, Osprey 1979, summarises WTM under a photo, paraphrased below;

He asserts that it was the last Lister made, in 1959, and featured an experimental spaceframe, although, to add to the confusion, (his words) it bore the registration number WTM 446,, the number having been used previously on Coundley's normal open-bodied car. The Coundley car was later crashed making "The Green helmet", giving rise to another pile of "VPP 9" parts. The Coupe was later rebodied in standard Costin form as Hexagon's historic racer.

Roger Lund

[bradbury west]

Andrew

There is a weighty tome in UK compiled by marshall Derek Lawson detailing the history of racing at Oulton Park, with another imminent with just photographs. In the original there is a charming sequence of colour shots from the 65 TT meeting when David W went off the blackstuff and put CUT 7 into the lake. Shots show it half submerged etc, some poor soul shirtless attaching a rope and then marshalls and helpers hauling it up over the woodland/verge etc ready for him to race the followig day.

Reminds me, I must put the author in touch with DW. He may sell another copy

Roger Lund.

[Ted Walker]

I think Hexagon just chopped the top off it,and painted it brown and yellow.Messers Faure and Marshall raced it, in fact I think Gerry might have won the very last race at Crystal Palace in it ??

[Ted Walker]

Were there any more reports in the Times about the case ???? What was the outcome ???

[Paul Parker]

Dear Ted et al,

Re: Lister coupe what I should have said is that the two Peters told me that at Le Mans 1963 the WTM 446 number was not registered to the car (presumably meaning at this time). They never raced it again.

I too recall the car as run by Hexagon without a roof and driven by GM. It was very quick by then but originally the car was far too softly sprung. It also raced at the Ring in 1964 driven by Fairman and somebody else whose name escapes me.

[Doug Nye]

Paul - I think you'll find that Peter Sargent did in fact licence and tax the spaceframe Le Mans Coupe car under that registration number - at least that's his sworn testimony so far as I can make out. The car was DEFINITELY road legal under that registration number in Harvey's later ownership, and Ted has the photos to prove it. John Coundley had the car and co-drove it at the Nurburgring with Jack Fairman in 1964 - again wearing the 'WTM 446' registration which is presently causing such a stupid fuss.

DCN

[Terry Walker]

If they both have the same chassis number ... m'mmmm. I don't have any problem with many cars using the same registration number. For years Rolls-Royce used 1800 TU and 100 LG on different new cars sent out for road tests. They just kept moving them from car to car, which is obviously what happened with CUT 7.

But chassis numbers identify an actual car. This whole things gets incredibly complicated with racing cars, (a) being re-chassised after shunts, or (b) having a chassis number reassigned to a new car to avoid tax or © both.

It could be that a racing car chassis could be junked still bearing its chassis number, while a new car is built using the same chassis number. Maybe two cars with the same chassis number might be legitimate. Car A is the one that raced until X; Car B, same chassis number, is the new one which raced after X...

Reminds me of the old gag about some saint or another; in one Italian cathedral is his skull. In another cathedral is his skull. On enquiry, the tourist is told, "Ah. but that was his skull when he was a boy."

[zoff2005]

They don't have the same chassis number - they have or are trying to have the same registration number. The original Times article was confusing and badly researched. They are of course two completely different cars - one a "standard" Lister Jaguar and the other a "spaceframe" - a special "one-off" chassis. I quite agree with the "learned Judge" - it is pathetic to get into a dispute like that over some registration plate.

[Terry Walker]

It's only the same numberplate? I must have misread the original item. Wasn't there some similar dispute about Jumbo Goddard's D-type years ago? OKV7 or something like it? But yeah, if it's just a registration number, it's daft. If the number was out of use for any length of time, and then legitimately reclaimed by someone for a car that used to wear it, well, end of story.

Edit: just re-read the Times article. It keeps on saying chassis number over and again, and only at the very end, when they bring in the DVLA, do you get a hint that the registration number's the thing. That's what happens to a broadsheet when it goes tabloid...

[Tomas Karlsson]

I hope you all know of Staffan Svenby's F1 connection....

... he was Ronnie Peterson's manager.

[Paul Parker]

Oh well that is what I understood at the time. Apologies.

[Paul Parker]

Dear Doug, Ted et al,

Further delving into the innermost recesses of my mind has revealed where I got the info concerning the Lister reg. no. Without my notes to hand I had to think hard and now remember that it was Brian Playford, not the Peters, who told me that the car was not actually registered when I interviewed him in 2000.

I would not have stated it otherwise and had no reason to believe it wrong at the time. So there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I shall now go and sulk.

[BRG]

This case has now ended – in a no-score draw! The court refused to rule in favour of either Lloyd or Svenby and the judge expressed his "wonderment" that the argument had ended up before him and cost so much money.

http://www.telegraph.../28/ixhome.html

[Charles Helps]

BRG, for some reason when I try to open that link to Ben Fenton's article I get an error and the address bar shows http:/// which doesn't go anywhere.

I did have more success with this one though:
http://www.telegraph...2/28/njag28.xml

Best possible result IMHO.

[TonyCotton]

The local paper, The Birmingham Post, reported the case outcome on the front page with a big reproduction of the poster for "The Green Helmet". Quite a nice way to start the day, as I picked it off my mat!

[ensign14]

Not seen the judgment, and Burnton is a sharp mind (who gets many difficult cases, he seems to be on the Appeal Track), but it seems odd that he declared the claim not to be "justiciable". There are surely claims in passing off and defamation associated with it.

[BRG]

Originally posted by Charles Helps
BRG, for some reason when I try to open that link to Ben Fenton's article I get an error and the address bar shows http:/// which doesn't go anywhere.

Corrected - I've only been a member of this BB for six years - you can't expect me to know how anything works!!

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by ensign14
Not seen the judgment, and Burnton is a sharp mind (who gets many difficult cases, he seems to be on the Appeal Track), but it seems odd that he declared the claim not to be "justiciable". There are surely claims in passing off and defamation associated with it.

It is a strange 'ruling' (or non-ruling!).

The whole case seems to be about who has the right to use the registration number, it is very unlikely that the British car has any realistic claim.

Presumably neither has a log book and both are trying to persuade DVLA to re-issue the number/logbook?

As others have said many numbers have been re-used, and that is positively encouraged in the UK (even DVLA encourage people to pay for specific registrations), since transferring registrations is legal then the last car to have the number is the one.

The fact the first car was 're-built' to a different specification (knobbly rather than Costin bodied) to original can't help its case either.

But a Swede can't register a car in the UK (unless he has a valid UK address), that would seem to be the only reason for not issuing the number to the spaceframe car?

In similar cases registrars have added suffixes like -1 & -2 to the first and second car bearing the same chassis numbers, when it has become an issue in more recent times, but since the number is only a means to help identify the car there is no real problem with them having the same number (except for possible tax issues) especially when the individual histories are known (as they are in this case).

[Doug Nye]

No time to enlarge on this right now but much of the 'Daily Telegraph' story is, I am sorry to point out, fearful tosh, reporter lost in the detail up against a short deadline has not grasped the issues AND has misdescribed them.

Essentially the Judge regarded both Lloyd and Svenby as being honestly involved - and his findings reject all three of Lloyd's claims together with Svenby's self-defensive counterclaim.

At one stage the Judge made mention of the question that if a dog bites because it is being kicked then who is to blame? The reference was to Svenby finding himself attacked by Lloyd's suit, and therefore having either to roll over and surrender to Lloyd's demands - whether justified or not - or to defend himself against them. Svenby chose to defend himself against them, and the outcome is that Lloyd's case has been dismissed, so has the counterclaim which Svenby's team issued as part of his defence. On points then. you make up your own minds whether either principal has, if not 'won', emerged rather better from the process?

It was a daft affair from the outset - I am more amazed that one pursued it rather than that the other defended it...

DCN

[David McKinney]

OTT, but I have been amused by the reporting of the case in some elements of the press:
The Daily Mail describes the original owner as "50s Formula One driver Bill Moss" and Metro goes even further, referring to "motor racing legend Bill Moss" and later describing him as "one of the greatest drivers of his day"

(You can just hear it in the office..."Hey! Anyone heard of a '50s racing driver called Moss?" )