14 replies to this topic

[Team Gunston]

Among the entries of the 1964 Indy 500 mile race, I'm much confused about the identity, origin and fate of cars numbers 7 and 37 :

#7 was the Dean Van Lines entry with Chuck Hulse as the assigned driver. It was a new "Kuzma-Blum" or "Blum-Kuzma" chassis built for the 1964 race.

#37 was (for the 3rd year in a row) an Ed Kostenuk entry with himself nominated as the driver, but with no car name on the official entry list.

Because of injuries sustained in a dirt track crash, Chuck Hulse was not allowed to make a qualifying attempt that year and #7 was supposed to be turned over to Chuck Rodee. Furthermore, Greg Littleton in his book (The Roadsters of Indianapolis , page 154), assumes that rookie Don Horvath passed his driver's test on this car, while he doesn't even mention the presence of Ed Kostenuk's car at Indy that year.

Here comes the mystery for me, given that, from photographic evidence (Clymer's Yearbook page 114), Don Horvath passed his test at the wheel of the #37 car.

Hence the following question : were #7 and #37 actually the same and only one car with two different numbers, depending on who was driving it ? Well, from the rear view photo in Clymer's, Horvath's #37 car looks like very much the new Dean Van Lines #7.

And if #37 was the renumbered #7, did it wear in this form the Dean Van Lines sponsorship and logo on the body ? (In no way, one can get the response from the Clymer photo.)

Another possibility could be that #37 was the former and faithful Dean Van Lines Ewing chassis, since it seems that Ronnie Duman drove a #37 Dean Van Lines Ewing at Milwaukee and elsewhere later in the year...

And last, was Chuck Hulse able to do some practice laps at the wheel of #7, before the medical staff turned him down late in the month of May ?

Thank you all for your help,

Philippe

[jimclark]

Just a quick find...both ran at the second Milwaukee race of the year...Mario (Andretti) in the #7 "Blum", 3rd place; and Duman in the 37 Ewing, 6th.

http://www.motorspor...ta/ch196408.pdf

[Gerr]

If you're much confused now, this is not likely to help.......

C/D, June '64 has a list (44 cars) of "500" entries as of press time.....which would early April, I would guess.

Two Dean Van Lines Spl. entries, Owner Al Dean, Mechanic Clint Brawner.
No driver or number for the Offy-roadster (described as a Travis, a Watson-type).
Chuck Hulse is the assigned driver for the 7 car, a new Weisman with a rear-mounted Offy.
Kostenuk's name does not appear on this entry list.

Checking the entry list in the Clymer book, Hulse is in #7 Dean roadster and there is another Dean entry the #94, "Delta International Movers Spl." , a rear-engined Offy.

In Fox's History of the 500, in the 1964 DNQ section:
7-Chuck Rodee-Dean Van Lines-Dean Van Lines Racing-Offy....with a picture
37-Don Horvath-Dean Van Lines-Ed Kostenuk-Offy....with a picture
94-No driver-Delta int'l. Movers-Dean Van Lines Racing-Offy....no pic and doesn't have an R after Offy, which would have designated a rear-engine. At some time I had pencilled in Bobby Johns' name beside the 94. I must have run across something that Johns drove this car, this year, but I can't recall at the moment.
Nothing in the "remarks" column on any of the 3 cars.

Pete Weismann's website has a pic of the 94, very little info and he has the year wrong.

[Team Gunston]

Interesting response anyway, Gerr.

With regard to #94 Delta Movers International Spl., I agree and although it was supposed to be a rear-engined car from Clymer source, it was more likely an old Dean Van Lines roadster, either the 1960 Ewing (a Watson clone), or (according to Littleton) their updated 1955 Kuzma. What is the address of the Pete Weismann's website you are speaking about ?

I'm understanding that #37 also deserved the Dean Van Lines Spl. name although it was owned and/or entered by Ed Kostenuk. Well, it was the same in 1962 when he entered a Leader Card "500" Roadster, whithout official backing from the Leader Cards, Inc. outfit. He had just purchased one of their former cars then...

Now, I'm thinking from your reply that you are in position to solve what was (and still is) for me a mystery regarding the identity of the #7 and #37 cars.

I don't have the Fox book. As you seem to have it and both #7 and #37 are pictured here, I would be glad I you could compare the pictures and tell me whether these cars are two distinct chassis or the same one in your opinion, given there are several external differences between the 1964 Blum roadster and the 1960 Ewing : nose cone (slightly more angular on the new car), engine bonnet (see exhaust side), oil tank, cockpit and windscreen (more streamlined on the new car)...

Thank you for letting me know.

A last word about Ed Kostenuk : I do believe he made some practice laps (if not a qualifying attempt) during the month of May. That was likely at the wheel of #37.

[Team Gunston]

What is the address of the Pete Weismann's website you are speaking about ?

I think I have found it there :http://www.weismann.net/indy.html

More and more confusing and a bit off topic...

1. Yes, Al Unser passed his driver's test in this car, but it was in 1965, not in 1964, and the car had then become the Maserati-engined Arciero Bros Spl. (#63).

2. The two pics of the white (or cream, or yellow ?) #94 are not from 1963, but from 1964 (see the background on the 1st photo and the tyres size : the two other cars look like #62 Arizona Apache Airlines Epperly/Salih roadster and #2 Kaiser Aluminum rear-engined Watson).

So my conclusion is #94 in 1964 was a rear-engined car. Clymer was right, Littleton and Fox wrong !

What about #7 and #37 now ?

[fines]

This is purely from memory, my sources and databases are out of reach at the mo, but #s 7 and 37 were surely different cars: #7 must have been Dean's new roadster, an "authorized" Watson copy built by Hank Blum in California. It was used by Hulse before his sprint crash and afterwards by Andretti, if I recall well. It was the last Watson roadster, as by this time A. J. himself was only building rear-engined cars, and no one else built Watsons by this time (as a sidebar, "authorized" Watson copies - meaning new cars from original Watson blueprints - were built by Blum, Wayne Ewing, Willi Utzman, Barney Christianson, Floyd Trevis since 1958, some of them appear as Watsons in Fox and Harms data, some not).

Ed Kostenuk was, iirc, a Canadian who raced for Leader Card on a rent-a-drive basis and later bought the car, which must've been a '61 or '62 model.

[fines]

I know I have something on the #94, but I will have to look that up.

[brickyard]

as a sidebar, "authorized" Watson copies - meaning new cars from original Watson blueprints - were built by Blum, Wayne Ewing, Willi Utzman, Barney Christianson, Floyd Trevis since 1958,

Fines,
do you know how were called the roadsters made by Willi Utzman?
I didn't know that Blum had made a roadster, I always thought he has made only dirt cars.

[Team Gunston]

This is purely from memory, my sources and databases are out of reach at the mo, but #s 7 and 37 were surely different cars: #7 must have been Dean's new roadster, an "authorized" Watson copy built by Hank Blum in California.

Michael,

Although Gerr seems no longer interested in this question and didn't tell us what the 1964 #37 looked like, my conclusion today is this car was the 1960 DVL Ewing, a perfect and classic Watson clone unlike the more modern Blum device.

do you know how were called the roadsters made by Willi Utzman?

In my opinion, there was no Watson clone deserving to be called an Utzman. Willie Untzman was the Travelon Trailer's chief mechanic but, although he is supposed to have played some role in the building of the car, Barney Chrisiansen was its original and "officially recorded" manufacturer.

[Gerr]

Team Gunston, Sorry I didn't reply earlier. The pics in the Fox book are difficult to compare to each other. Both are Watson-clones, of course. The photo of 37 is from the left-rear side. The 7 from the right-front. I haven't any other photos of these two cars for comparison.

[Team Gunston]

Thanks anyway Gerr. Despite the lack of photographic evidence, I'm pretty sure now that #7 and #37 were actually two different cars.

And #94 being, without the smallest doubt, a rear-engined funny car - something I didn't know before posting this thread and before you gave me the info - there are 99% chances that #37 roadster was the 1960 Ewing.

[fines]

Originally posted by brickyard


Fines,
do you know how were called the roadsters made by Willi Utzman?
I didn't know that Blum had made a roadster, I always thought he has made only dirt cars.

The Utzman-Christiansen-or-whatever-you-want-to-call-it always raced under the name of "Travelon Trailer". I call it that, or a "Ruiz" or a "Watson", depending on the mood.

Harry "Henk" Blum very probably finished off the 1958 Elkins/McNamara, or perhaps even built it from the blueprints. This is the car wrecked by Dick Rathmann at Turn 3, rebuilt by Floyd Trevis around a new frame and subsequently modified to look different from other Watson clones.

Blum also built the 1964 Dean Van Lines, and one of his dirt cars was also a Watson (four-bar) clone.

[fines]

I have now the opportunity to check my database, which is not without fail, but close!;)

#7 was in fact the new Hank Blum-built lightweight Watson copy. I was wrong about Hulse using it before, Indy was its first race, but Hulse ran it at the Jimmy Bryan in 1966, hence the confusion. It was then slated to appear at Indy with a turbocharged Rambler engine, but never ran with anything other than an Offy. Other drivers in it have been Dean Horvath (?), Lloyd Ruby, Chuck Rodee, Chuck Stevenson, Mario Andretti and Bud Tingelstad.

#37 was indeed the 1960 Wayne Ewing-built Watson clone - that was the car used by Hulse as #7 at the Jimmy Bryan in '64! It was apparently on loan to Kostenuk for Horvath to drive, and later used by Ronnie Duman, presumably as a Dean entry again. It disappears from my records after 1964.

There is a bit of confusion about this #37 entry, as I have not one but two remarks against it: (1) it just may have been the 1961 "Del Webb's Sun City Special" Leader Card Watson, but evidence is strongly weighed against that. (2) another car running as a Kostenuk entry #37 in 1964 was the 1961 Frank Kurtis-built "North Electric Special", but this car does look rather different, and the (small) picture in the Fox book is enough of evidence to refute this possibility.

Thanks again to the Weismann link I find my initially suspect entry for #94 backed up, it was the car subsequently used by Al Unser for Frank Arciero. There is still a bit of confusion as in another 1964 race, Unser raced a rear-engined #94 for J. C. Agajanian - Phil Harms had this entry down as the original Agajanian #98/97 RE built by Troutman-Barnes, but I think it is more likely it was the Weismann, perhaps sold to Agajanian before it found another buyer in California?

P.S. I don't know if this has been answered yet, but I don't think Hulse practiced at Indy in '64. He was rejected because of bloodshot eyes, iirc, and the driver physicals are usually before they begin practice. That said, Hulse's Sprint Car accident did not happen before May 3, so he may have practiced at Indy on May 1 or 2, then subsequently gone to New Bremen for the Sprint Car event, which is not that far!

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by fines
Other drivers in it have been Dean Horvath (?)

That should be Don Horvath. California midget racer who dabbled in Champ Cars. Fatally injured in a Midget race at Vallejo Speedway, Vallejo, California on February 14, 1965.

[fines]

Yes, of course! a mechanical defect called brain fade... New linings for the head will help!

[perhaps I was thinking of the "Don Van Lines Special"...]