1117 replies to this topic

[Gregor Marshall]

Not as good as Don and Justin Law when Don agreed to buy a load of spares from the Scottish person who goes un-named.
The Laws were told there two spare XJ220 engines and gearboxes at the TWR premises, turned up and there was only one of each so they asked where the second was and a Transit in the corner was pointed out, so they walked over, opened up the back and there was nothing inside other than a carpet (!!), so they asked again?
They were then told that the Transit was the spare engine and gearbox and it was!!
TWR had installed a full XJ220 drive-train in the Transit and the only two things to make it obvious was a slightly wider rear wheelspan and a small hump protruding on the rear loading area (hence the carpet) - I think they've demonstrated it at the FoS and I remember Justin telling me a story of being in the fast lane of a motorway (I can't remember which now) and a 911 came up behind him and flashed so he put his foot down and lost the Porker at 150mph - it was either down to speed or the 2 foot long flame that came out of the exhaust!!
Back to GM though, it looks like the American market just needs some direction at the moment and the Toyota announcement is huge (and could be linked to the F1 decision) - the Americans bought Toyotas due to their reliability and now this...

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by RTH
Not just GM with troubles. BBC TV reports that Toyota has announced today that 8 million of the cars they have sold worldwide in recent years potentially could suffer from sticking throttle pedals identified on models right across the range and possibly the biggest recall in automotive history may be required to change components.....

You might not be aware, but this is all a smokescreen...

The problem is not the pedals, but something to which they're attached. It's electronic, or a mechanical problem within the electronic switches, or a software glitch.

Where they are saying that the throttles are 'sticking', it's in fact an issue with them actually accelerating of their own accord.

[rateus]

Just bringing this back to the top as today marks the official end for an American icon.
http://www.nytimes.c...s..._r=2&ref=us

Pontiac RIP

[Terry Walker]

Sad, but inevitable. The old GM business model of several makes carefully graduated up the price and prestige ladder is past its use by date. Worldwide, cars are becoming more like commodities. A big manufacturer can blanket the market with a full range of models and sizes all with the same badge - look at Mercedes, the three pointed star all the way, except for two niche models at either end of the market, the Smart and the Maybach. GM really needs very few makes: maybe GM for its commercials/SUVs, Chev for its mass market passenger cars, and Cadillac as a topline niche luxury brand. Sadly, Cadillac has so throughly debased its image that it will be hard to get it back.

It's a sobering thought that ultimately Detroit may only be able to produce niche market cars, like the UK does, with the US mass market belonging to world cars designed in Europe and Asia.

[Ray Bell]

It outlasted De Soto by almost fifty years...

That's a sobering thought, really.

[Lee Nicolle]

Pontiac RIP. Really there is no reason for the Pontiac brand to disapear, it was always a volume seller and with the correct cars and marketing it should have survived. While , since the 60s, really only upmarket Chevs they had enough appeal and customer base to continue.
I think GM let an important part of their business go which they may never get back.

[Bob Riebe]

Sad, but inevitable. The old GM business model of several makes carefully graduated up the price and prestige ladder is past its use by date. Worldwide, cars are becoming more like commodities. A big manufacturer can blanket the market with a full range of models and sizes all with the same badge - look at Mercedes, the three pointed star all the way, except for two niche models at either end of the market, the Smart and the Maybach. GM really needs very few makes: maybe GM for its commercials/SUVs, Chev for its mass market passenger cars, and Cadillac as a topline niche luxury brand. Sadly, Cadillac has so throughly debased its image that it will be hard to get it back.

It's a sobering thought that ultimately Detroit may only be able to produce niche market cars, like the UK does, with the US mass market belonging to world cars designed in Europe and Asia.

When Smith destroyed the semi-independant nature of GM car companies, and thought U.S. buyer were too stupid or did not care, he started the snowball that has not stopped rolling down-hill.

The showing of the Japanese in their attempt to build full-size pick-up trucks says your last point is void.

[Terry Walker]

The huge Detroit pickup trucks aren't worldwide mass market cars - basically US only. The Asian builders aren't interested because there's no world market for them, and no home market either. I put them in with the big SUVs as a category - a niche market, even though a large one. Mind, if the Asian builders ever decide to tackle that segment of the US market seriously, they will succeed there too. They will be able to undercut Detroit radically on price. And don't think that Ford wouldn't happily set up making F150s and F250s in China if there was more profit in it. After all, Mercedes Benz are being built in China now, and hefty Great Wall 4x4s and pickups are already here in Australia.

Many years ago, when the first little Honda bikes arrived, the complacent UK motorcycle industry, the world leaders, said, "yeah, but they can't make middle size bikes," and did nothing. Then Japan flooded the world's middle capacity market with 350s and 500s. "Yeah, but they can't make real big sports bikes," said UK industry, and out came the Honda 750, 4 cylinders, electric start, disc brakes, and on its heels the other Japanese builders. UKs response was to put a disc brake and an electric start on the existing twins. Too little, too late.

With the benefit of perfect hindsight, GM was perfectly structured for the postwar boom, and still fine for the 60s and 70s, but gradually became out of synch with a rapidly diversifying market. It wasn't flexible and fast-moving enough, and relied too much on the exemption of SUVs and pickups from the mandatory fleet fuel consumption laws. I'm not certain Detroit will go the way of the UK industry, but it's a possibility, however unpleasant.

[Terry Walker]

And a last thought - brand loyalty is declining, too. People buy on other factors now. I'm a typical non-brand-loyalty car buyer - I've had about thirty five so far: Hillman, Renault, VW, UK Ford, Australian Ford, Holden, Rover, Mazda, NSU, Subaru, Suzuki, Toyota, Rolls-Royce, and so on. Every time, I bought the car to fit what I wanted to do at the time. Last car I bought was a Ford Falcon Station Wagon - but I didn't set out to buy a Ford. I wanted a big wagon to carry bulky and long loads, and either a Falcon or Holden would have done equally well. It happened that the Falcon was the first one I saw at the right price and right condition.

Maybe Ford US fared better because it basically had three brands: Ford, Mercury, Lincoln. And Ford was the mass market everyman brand.

[Ian G]

Yeah,looks like the bow-tie types have finally won out at GM,more internal memo's that "Chevrolet" is the name not "Chev".I hope they can put the name "Pontiac" on ice for the future as i would hate to see it snapped up by "Happy go Lucky" Motors in a yet to be named Chinese city.

[Bob Riebe]

The huge Detroit pickup trucks aren't worldwide mass market cars - basically US only. The Asian builders aren't interested because there's no world market for them, and no home market either. I put them in with the big SUVs as a category - a niche market, even though a large one. Mind, if the Asian builders ever decide to tackle that segment of the US market seriously, they will succeed there too. They will be able to undercut Detroit radically on price. And don't think that Ford wouldn't happily set up making F150s and F250s in China if there was more profit in it. After all, Mercedes Benz are being built in China now, and hefty Great Wall 4x4s and pickups are already here in Australia.

Many years ago, when the first little Honda bikes arrived, the complacent UK motorcycle industry, the world leaders, said, "yeah, but they can't make middle size bikes," and did nothing. Then Japan flooded the world's middle capacity market with 350s and 500s. "Yeah, but they can't make real big sports bikes," said UK industry, and out came the Honda 750, 4 cylinders, electric start, disc brakes, and on its heels the other Japanese builders. UKs response was to put a disc brake and an electric start on the existing twins. Too little, too late.

With the benefit of perfect hindsight, GM was perfectly structured for the postwar boom, and still fine for the 60s and 70s, but gradually became out of synch with a rapidly diversifying market. It wasn't flexible and fast-moving enough, and relied too much on the exemption of SUVs and pickups from the mandatory fleet fuel consumption laws. I'm not certain Detroit will go the way of the UK industry, but it's a possibility, however unpleasant.

Bloomberg business news say you are extremely wrong, the Japanese took it up the butt on the pickups because they have no idea of how that market operates.
Their sales reality are fifty percent below expectations in the best of years.

U.S. truck sales are increasing and Japanese are still tanking.

You are partly correct about the trucks as Detroit killed the station wagon replacing it with trucks and utility vehicles.
The pathetic min-vans were supposed to be the new station wagon but when buyers discovered they could not haul as much as a large sedan much less a wagon, they turned to utes which could substitute for wagons.
Washington is going to play the god wannabe game till Detroit workers finally realize their asinine laws are killing jobs, which may be within the next eight years-till then the union workers are screwing them selves and wonder why they have sore butts.

There was a program on National Public Radio which was an abstract of a book on how GM and the Union really screwed themselves with greed and arrogant indifference.
It left one feeling that either side fully deserved any **** that fell on them.

Edited by Bob Riebe, 03 November 2010 - 19:11.

[Vitesse2]

It left one feeling that either side fully deserved and shit that fell on them.

Why does all this remind me of the slow agonising death of BLMC?

[Ray Bell]

Presumably because they're killing off the most interesting cars first...

At BMC the Healey 4000 was given the chop, at GM it's the Olds and then Pontiac that go first.

[Bob Riebe]

Presumably because they're killing off the most interesting cars first...

At BMC the Healey 4000 was given the chop, at GM it's the Olds and then Pontiac that go first.

You could add that Cadillac, supposedly the premium brand, killed its new V-8 and therefore is stuck using the Chevy LS small-block rather than the new engine with a larger bore-spacing that was axed.

Ford went forward with the larger Hurricane engine but GM kills an engine that would make a Caddy, a Caddy- the GM snowball is still rolling and growing.

Edited by Bob Riebe, 03 November 2010 - 20:52.

[Lee Nicolle]

With the Wagon comments it is the same here in Oz. Only Ford are shooting themselves in the foot. With the last model Falcon they had a good size wagon that suited familys and the comercial reps [very important business] But they offered it in one level wih one ugly trim color. So people bought Holdens, slightly smaller, less power and a rear suspension that gives 20000km from tyres. Ford had it made but stupid marketing let it down. The new [current] model no longer offers a wagon. If you want a wagon you have to buy a Territory which is a crossover vehicle marketed in both 2 and 4 wheel drive. Good car but dearer and a bit bigger than the traditional wagon.
Though on the current Holden wagon it is a standard wheelbase model marketed as a 'Sports Wagon' which has trendy styling BUT has far less cargo room than the previous one. And Reps hate them with a passion. And they still get 20000km from a set of tyres.

Ford though have also shot themselves in the foot with dual fuel vehicles.They dont sell them!! Since 02 the popular factory dual fuel cars were dropped in favor of dedicated gas, partly because of the boot floor is so high to cater for the independent rear suspension and the relocation of the tank under the l/r seat area. And they do not sell well at all, Holden offer dual fuel and sell plenty. I know several reps who are driving Holdens because of this reason, all who would prefer the Ford. Dedicated gas is only practical in the greater metro area as gas is a rare commodity in some places and often way too expensive to be viable. And the range on gas is usually 3-400 km.

[Ray Bell]

Is it that bad, Lee?

I drive a dedicated gas car. Not that it was intended to be so, but the petrol pump died so it became one!

And I go everywhere. Places like Collarenebri, St George, the wilds of Hillgrove etc. I have to plan ahead a bit, with only 67 litres of fuel available, but I haven't been stuck yet. Those modern dedicated gas cars would have 100 litres or almost that much on board and should be more economical than my '89 model. Especially when I'm towing a trailer, which I often am.

[Lee Nicolle]

Is it that bad, Lee?

I drive a dedicated gas car. Not that it was intended to be so, but the petrol pump died so it became one!

And I go everywhere. Places like Collarenebri, St George, the wilds of Hillgrove etc. I have to plan ahead a bit, with only 67 litres of fuel available, but I haven't been stuck yet. Those modern dedicated gas cars would have 100 litres or almost that much on board and should be more economical than my '89 model. Especially when I'm towing a trailer, which I often am.

Gas only Falcon is about 65 litres. To tow from Adalaide to Mt Gambier unless you are very organised and think ahead you will run out.And go up North or west is the same. Or even the Yorke Peninsula, you struggle to get 98 octane petrol there. Gas Ford is 400-500 km max on gas and about 200-300 towing. And 700-800 km on a tank of petrol country.
When towing with gas on a hot day most vehicles just suck it making petrol a cheaper and more powerful alternative, meaning you can cruise on the speed limit. But gas LOVES cold air,under 10 degrees then they really go well and use 25% less!
And gas supplies are less reliable, I could not get it in my suburb yesterday, 5 min drive to find some. And can be bloody expensive $1.05 at Lyndhurst 6 weeks ago where petrol was $1.39 making it far cheaper to drive on petrol
Last year when there was a gas shortage a courier I know used his wifes hatchback as his gas only Falcon traytop was a gnome for a few days.And this is a semi regular occurence.
As a car dealer gas only cars are VERY hard to sell and normally I will not touch them. Popular as Aids is the term!!

[Ray Bell]

I've got to agree that it's ideal to have petrol backup if you're on gas...

It's just that the system in my car was set up to start on petrol even when it runs on gas. So a little petrol is taken out of the tank every time you start, and as I never used petrol I didn't bother to top it up. Then, here comes the bad bit, I learn that the fuel pump was running all the time.

You know the one, the submersible pump inside the tank? Well, it didn't like running without fuel in it, it seems, and it died. But something else has happened (I must say, my installation was extremely shabby, a gas lockout wire hanging between chassis sections was right in the path of a suspension bolt that was bouncing up and down... I'm sure you can guess what happened there!) and there's simply no power to the fuel pump even now it's been replaced.

So mine is essentially a dedicated gas car, and it goes into all sorts of unlikely places where gas might never have been seen before. Normal range is about 480-540kms, but with trailer it's 300-400kms. Often I have the trailer, of course. And despite your planning, you might have to make a diversion, you need to be very careful, but you can usually do it.

My Valiant will have about 100 litres of gas and definitely have petrol backup, even if it's a minimal size tank.