51 replies to this topic

[VWV]

I have not seen anyone mention this but Jim Hall is building a new batch of Chaparall 2E racecars for historic racers. http://www.chaparralcars.com/2e.php It's interesting to note that Jim Hall states that the 2E was his favourite. I think this is great as it increases the the chances of me seeing one of my favourite racecars.

As mentioned by others in previous threads, I have no problems with anyone building recreations as long as they are passed off as such. With so few original Chaparral's actually built I don't think anyone will have a problem keeping track.

[Macca]

Interesting about hoping to get certification for historic racing because of being built by the same people from the same patterns - that didn't work for Brian Lister!

He was most indignent that his proposed 'new-old' Lister-Jags wouldn't be allowed, because he opined that there were some racing that might not have seen much of the inside of his factory.......


Paul M

[red stick]

Great, something new to chase all those McLarens at vintage Can-Am events! But, you're right, this is a great opportunity to see a wonderful car, for all those who can't make it to the Petroleum Museum in Midland, Texas, to see the original or who can't make those rare events where Hall decides to display his cars. I saw the collection at Road America in 2001 and they're quite impressive, particularly in this age of cookie-cutter race cars.

[red stick]

Does anybody know if any of Carroll Shelby's continuation Cobras have raced?

[WDH74]

I don't believe any of the continuation Cobras have raced, at least not in vintage events. There's certainly the possibility that a few have been used on the track. Sports Car Market has an article about the low-drag Cobra Super Coupe that was never finished in period, and which now competes sometimes in vintage events (see pic of it at Road America), and whether or not it should be allowed, as it's not a "real" car.

[IMG]http://img181.images...ineup0br.th.jpg[/IMG]

The "continuation" thing was tried with Cunninghams a few years back as well, and I remember seeing one tooling around the Road America paddock. Don't think they ever got on track, though. Same with "new" Kurtis 500s either.

Personally, I'm with VWV on this. As long as the cars are accurate, and are not passed off as period built specimens, I don't mind seeing them on the track.

-William

[DOHC]

Originally posted by VWV
It's interesting to note that Jim Hall states that the 2E was his favourite.

Interesting. I always thought that was the coolest one too.

[red stick]

Originally posted by WDH74

Personally, I'm with VWV on this. As long as the cars are accurate, and are not passed off as period built specimens, I don't mind seeing them on the track.

I agree. There was a "counterfeit" Cobra Daytona at Road America in 2001, clearly marked as such, but it was still fun to see. A good copy too, as Rob Walton's genuine model was nearby. Walton's took to the track but I don't believe the other one ever did, so perhaps the rules at the BRIC are fairly strict.

And in 1996 there was a Ferrari 330P4 copy in the RA paddock as well that never saw the track, but was beautiful to stare at.

Particularly in the case of the Chaparrals, where frequently the old model was converted into a newer model (IIRC the current 2E Hall has is a reconstructed 2G, which was a converted 2E) a continuation model makes sense, as it gives the fans more cars to see.

[red stick]

Originally posted by DOHC


Interesting. I always thought that was the coolest one too.

It certainly has the prettiest lines. Although the 2J is pretty cool too!

[VWV]

Getting back to the debate of restoration/recreation/historical originality, this past Rememberance Day at the RCAF Museum, Trenton, Ontario, Canada was publicly unvailed the worlds only restored Halifax Bomber. http://www.airforce....005/11/09_e.asp http://www.halibag.com/

I visited the museum the summer after the remains of the Halifax arrived. It was completely dis-assembled. The engines looked like they have been underwater for 50 years, the skin was in really bad shape, the ribs and stringers bent and deformed. I watched them take the old skin off and rivet new aluminum panels on. A lot of the structure was rebuilt from new, perhaps 25-30%. It may not seem too original but at least the world has Halifax to look at.

I also happen to live within driving distance of the Canadian Warbirds Heritage Museum, http://www.warplane.com/ with the 2nd flying Lancaster bomber. I love watching it taxing and taking off, I have not figured out a scam on how to get a ride without donating thousand of dollers! They also have aircaft restoration shops where you can watch them restore old warbirds. As an aside, when I saw all the protected the aircrew on these bombers was a thin piece of aluminum, I understand why aircrew were more afraid of flack then anything else. Last week on TV here in Canada was a documentary on WW2 bomber crew, the young 18-26 year old decendants of the original bomber crew undergoing recreated training their grandfathers received during the war. It was facinating watching two different generations become more closer together and understanding of what they went through. It was also sad when the narrator asked some young folks who did Canada fight during WW2 and they couldn't answer correctly! Sad

[Manfred Cubenoggin]

Not wishing to hi-jack this thread but I simply must relate to VWV my experience of the Mynarski Lanc at the Quinte Air Show some six or eight years back. During the air programme, I noted the time for the Lanc's takeoff and as that hour approached, drifted on over to position myself directly behind the plane and right up at the fence line. Shortly before the appointed takeoff time, an officious-looking chap happened along the fence line and ushered everyone back 100 metres minimum, warning them of the considerable prop wash from the four Merlins. As he stepped up to me, I assured him that indeed, the reason for my being positioned directly behind the Lanc, a mere 20 metres off its tail, was to experience the runup. I managed to convince him of my desire to be bathed by the prop wash and he moved on. Moments later, the Merlins, each in their proper turn, spluttered to life and the wash gained velocity. After all four had come to power, the prop wash played havoc with the snow fence and a number of lawn chairs, left in place at the fence by others, took wing. I held fast my ground and for several minutes, all on my own, just the Lanc and I, had the pleasure of being blasted by the gail-force winds thrown back by the four roaring propellors. A day to remember.

[red stick]

OK guys, focus.

Chaparral.

Jim Hall.

Midland, Texas.

Rattlesnake Speedway.

Fiendishly quick and innovative cars.







And speaking of Midland, Texas, the Commemorative Air Force based there (formerly the Confederate Air Force) has the only remaining flyable Boeing B-29 Superfortress. Enough prop wash to blow you to the next province.

[Dennis Hockenbury]

I am glad to see Jim Hall build a few more of the 2E's that can actually be run. The originals are irreplaceable.

While I like the 2E, to be honest the looks of the late 2A's were the versions that I liked the best.

[Rosemayer]

Dennis along with the 2A this is my next choice:

[Manfred Cubenoggin]

OK...OK...OK. I'll keep it to Chaparrals this time...promise. I did go to the link and left a message there regarding the 2E and other races that I saw Chaparrals run.

One thing about the marque. I have a photo of Jim's last front-engine Chaparral that I took at the 1963 Player's 200 at Mosport. It featured a very futuristic front end treatment which was later transferred to the first rear-engine model that appeared for the fall sports car races on the West Coast. It was dubbed the 'snowplow', IIRC. I'd post but my scanner is US. Anyone else here have access to a pix of this model and post, svp?

[David Pozzi]

I have heard Steve Earle has allowed some re-created cars to run because the original no longer existed.
Most of the Can-Am cars have been re-tubbed and the suspension replaced. The McLarens with Monocoque chassis usually have everything except the tubular bulkheads re-done, and sometimes even those are replaced, not to mention some "air" cars out there.

It would be great for the Vintage Can-Am class to have a Chaparral racing, as long as it was true to the original.

I imagine the reproduction 2E will be expen$ive!
David

[red stick]

Originally posted by David Pozzi
I imagine the reproduction 2E will be expen$ive!
David

Yeah, handbuilt reproduction race cars. Prices aren't mentioned on the website. If you have to ask . . .

[Allen Brown]

Originally posted by red stick
OK guys, focus.

Welcome to TNF red stick. We're not good at focus here.

[Cirrus]

On this side of the pond, the whole business of faithful and accurate recreations of historic cars is undergoing a change. The FIA has changed it's procedure , in a move which both legitimises honest replicas, and safeguards those cars with unimpeachable provenance.

The new FIA papers come in two forms - Heritage Certificate (HC) and Historic Technical Passport (HTP), and they replace the old Historic Vehicle Identity Form (HVIF). The HTP covers cars such as, say, a roadgoing MGB being modified to Appendix K requirements for FIA events. In that case, as the MGB is a homologated car, it must conform to the exact specification on the homologation papers (together with safety requirements of Appendix K). A non-homologated car, such as a Deep Sanderson can still get an HTP if documentary evidence can be provided that the exact specification of car presented for approval matches the specification of the car as raced internationally in period (much more difficult, and therefore subject to closer scrutiny)

Non-homologated vehicles also include cars such as Lotus 22s and 23s (of which there are a great many replicas), but if they are identical to the originals, they'll be ok. The toughest job of the lot will be to get a HC. It shouldn't be a problem for something like the "Williams" Bugatti, but there might well be some unhappy owners of cars that currently have an HVIF.......

So - under FIA rules, a Chapparal recreation would get an HTP, and could therefore race.

And that can only be a Good Thing.......

[2F-001]

Ah - that's one problem dealt with then. Now there's just the finance…

Ever since I heard about the '2E continuation' earlier in the year, I've known that life in the future would be consumed with unrequited lust.

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by red stick


Yeah, handbuilt reproduction race cars. Prices aren't mentioned on the website. If you have to ask . . .

I heard today that Lola are thinking about making some T70s, the cost would be something under 200,000 pounds.

Apparently if you had been in a position to order a new batch of Auto-Unions the cost would have been about twice that, and a Lancia D50 a bit less.

Something upto 250,000 pounds would be my guess for a Chaparral - but they might get away with asking more, since these will presumably be the only Chap 2s to ever be sold?

[zoff2005]

Will these cars actually be allowed to race now with the suspension mounted wing? Were they not banned in 1969?

[red stick]

We're talking vintage events where historical accuracy is the key, not adherence to that particular rule change. For instance, at the vintage Can-Am events I've attended at Road America the ex-Chuck Parsons Lola T-163 is a regular, and it has a high-mounted wing linked to the suspension. Likewise a high wing Lotus 49 ran a few years ago at the Historic Grand Prix race. The Chaparral 2J "sucker" car was banned too, but I bet if Jim Hall wanted to run it at Group 7 vintage events he could.

[WDH74]

Both the Can-Am and Historic GP events are good examples of classes "mixing" cars built under different technical rules. A typical Can-Am race I've seen includes cars from the earliest McLarens and McKees to the all conquering M8Fs and at least a couple of times a Porsche 917, which smoked the field.

Same with HGP. The first time I saw HGP (at the BRIC), the field included an early, wingless '67 Ferrari (ex-Amon, IIRC), a Gold Leaf Lotus 49 (Pete Loveley's, er, lovely be-winged example), and an ex-Hunt McLaren, among others. In that respect, I think a be-winged Chaparral would be most welcome at any historic Can-Am event! I, for one, would love to see one in action again!

-William

[David Pozzi]

Originally posted by Cirrus

Non-homologated vehicles also include cars such as Lotus 22s and 23s (of which there are a great many replicas), but if they are identical to the originals, they'll be ok. The toughest job of the lot will be to get a HC. It shouldn't be a problem for something like the "Williams" Bugatti, but there might well be some unhappy owners of cars that currently have an HVIF.......

So - under FIA rules, a Chapparal recreation would get an HTP, and could therefore race.

And that can only be a Good Thing.......

Is there any FIA distinction between an original Lotus 22 VS a replica? Or are they treated exactly the same?
FIA had a Booth at the Monterey Historics, but I didn't make it over there to get their info.
David

[Cirrus]

Is there any FIA distinction between an original Lotus 22 VS a replica? Or are they treated exactly the same?

As far as the FIA is concerned, they are treated equally (as far as I am aware). However, individual organisers can choose to refuse an entry for any car as they see fit. At the recent Formula Junior annual lunch in the UK, Duncan Rabagliati more or less said that it was pointless entering next year's Monaco Historique if you have a Lotus 20 or 22 as there were probably five or six already entered by Monagasque residents!

When the FIA issued the guidelines for the new papers, they went to great lengths to stress that original really meant original. The example they used was a Lotus Twincam. If a TC produced, say 150bhp in 1964, then a TC producing 185bhp in 2005 is not original.

Quite how they planned to police that was not so clear......

[bill patterson]

Any photos of a continuation 2E? I think a line-up of 2 or 3 would be sensory overload which brings me to my main comment. Yes, I can see the merit in having some out against McLarens, Lolas, etc as the original would be too precious to race but not a field of 5 or 6 - any thoughts?

Mention has been made previously of "continuation/reproduction" Daytona Cobras - my view is as long as the owners don't claim the cars to be anything else other than a repro then it's better to see one out on the track than displayed in the Paddock

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by David Pozzi


Is there any FIA distinction between an original Lotus 22 VS a replica? Or are they treated exactly the same?
FIA had a Booth at the Monterey Historics, but I didn't make it over there to get their info.
David

The FIA technical form does not concern itself with the history of the car, so makes no distinction.

The FIA heritage form does concern itself with the history, so that does make a distinction.

The FIA's "job" is to check whether the car meets the original (rather, correct for the intended race series) specification or not - if it does you receive the technical form.

If you have a provable history for your car then the FIA offer an additional document to back that up - but knowing the history of a car does not ensure that it is to original specification, so a known history does not guarantee race eligibility.

Thus they avoid the issue of when is a car original or not - there are plenty of "original" cars that have had new chassis, bodies, suspension etc and are in reality no older than the supposed replicas.

Many "replicas" have been built from old (e.g. original) components, but because their origin was not known they aren't recognised as original cars despite the components being older than some "originals".

In the end if a car has a provable valuable history it will be worth more than a car with unknown history, if a vendor believes his car's history makes it more valuable it is up to him to prove it (and for anyone buying the car to verify it).

[Pikachu Racing]

Here's a replica of 2E at the gallery from my personal pics. This is a two-seater you could sit down and pose a picture with it. There is a pedal below to move the rear wing.



Here's one of threads on the Chaparral featuring pics. The pics are mines.
http://forums.autosp...&threadid=68291

[Manfred Cubenoggin]

As per my note back in post #14 of this thread, I finally have a working scanner and am pleased to post the following two pix taken by me at the running of the Player's 200 at Mosport in 1963. To the best of my knowledge, none of the leading car mags of the day(Road & Track, Car and Driver and Sports Car Graphic)ever published photos of this nose treatment.

[Cynic]

All these wonderful replicas do indeed allow spectators to see cars which no longer exist, or which are simply rare, or in the other end of the country this weekend, or just not entered. Just think; every vintage grid can be full of Lolas and Chaparrals and Scarabs and Ferraris and the like. Every weekend in the U.K. is Goodwood; every weekend in the U.S. is Monterey.

Seems a bit like an art museum replacing all the paintings with reproduction prints, but then, what do I know?

Cynic

[VWV]

There is an article about the Chaparral 2E continuation prototype in the latest issue (Issue 17) of the Winding Road available for download at http://www.windingro...nload?issue=new

There are also links to streaming videos of the Chaparral running in the PDF.

For those who don't want to subscribe here's the link to the article.

http://www.windingro.../features-page/

I have just come across this free online car magazine. Hopefully there will be other interesting articles too come.

[Steve Carter]

I think the shot that Dennis H posted is actually the 2C variant - my favourite of any sports racing car manufactured in the 60s (the 2E comes close as does GT40 & P4). Theres a great book available Chaparral by Richard Falconer & Doug Nye - Im not sure if its still in print and also you could try to get hold of Chaparral Can Am & Prototype Race Cars by Dave Friedman. Failing that theres the wonderful book Can Am by Pete Lyons - this latter one I believe will be reprinted soonish.
It's amazing that of all the models Jim Hall built - Im led to believe there were only ever 2 chassis involved which were subsequently upgraded/rebuilt etc to the relevant models over the years ie 2C became 2D and 2F etc.
Jim Hall was (and still is) a real hero of mine as a 12 yr old kid living in country NSW downunder - as was/is Sir Jack.
I dont know how I feel about the continuation with the 2E its a strange one - Im very much in the mold of if the original exists then leave it alone - continuations work when all else has been lost ie the shark nose Ferrari that Chris Rea built or the 250 Maseratti that runs in the UK.

[RA Historian]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Steve Carter
[B]I think the shot that Dennis H posted is actually the 2C variant - QUOTE]
Nope. That is the 2A that was at Road America in July, 2001. Definitely the 2A in its late 1965 guise. The 2C that was built in 1965 no longer exists. It was converted to a 2E.

[T54]

We have had this constant battle with the slot car racing community for many years, where every 2 and 2A model is being called "2C" by just about everyone. Of course, while there was a plethora of Chaparral 2 and 2A models in the 1/24 and 1/32 scale as well as HO, there were only TWO correct 2C models over the past 40 years, and those two are not common models, never mind the ONE Japanese static model. I spent countless hours over the years trying to explain to these guys the difference between two very diferrent cars, but it matters little, a few weeks later, they are back to their same wrong comments. It is very frustrating.

[Steve Carter]

OK that makes sense RA saves me going back through the text books. I checked out that winding road video stream - great to see the 2E continuation run (and fast). I take it your from the US given your knowledge of the Road America shot - I'm just a fan from Australia who was taken by Jim Halls exploits in the 60s - only coverage was through Car & Driver mag although we were lucky enough (even in country NSW in 66) to receive ABC World Of Sport TV presentations which usually had the Can Am races hosted by Chris Economaki (with guest appearances by Phil Hill, Dan Gurney etc).
I struck up a friendship some time back with Marilyn Halder(Lothar Mothenbachers ex) who lives in California and she has some quite good home movie footage of the Can Am era including lots on the various Chaparrals - she is also very good friends with Jim & Sandy Hall and was most likely also at the Road America event that shot was taken.

[Dennis Hockenbury]

Steve, the picture is Jim Hall's restored 2A chassis no. 002. This same chassis was used for 2D002 and 2F001 and was subsequently restored as a late 2A model with all of the final developmental modifications used during the 1965 season except for the rear flipper wing as was used by the team on 2A003 beginning in October, 1965 at Riverside.

The 2C was actually a very different car with an aluminum chassis with a wheelbase that was 6 inches narrower and 1 inch shorter than the original 2A resin chassis. And much warmer on the drivers backside as the aluminum conducted the engine heat much more efficiently than the resin original!

Beautiful car, and still my favorite Chaparral.

[Steve Carter]

Hi Dennis - I see your from down Chaparral way in Texas - I never did get down that way in all my numerous travels to the US on business - usually NY state, LA and believe it or not Bloomington Indiana (which allowed me to get to Indianapolis Motor Speedway back in 89).
The chassis you speak of - was that the same one that was snapped in half at Mosport in 1964, then repaired won at Sebring in 65 then re bodied as the 2D which won at the Nurburgring in 66??

[Dennis Hockenbury]

Yes, I live in Houston which is quite a drive from Midland.

Hall's rollover at the 1964 Mosport Park event occured in chassis 2A001 if memory serves.

[Steve Carter]

Yes that makes sense as 2A002 went to 2D002 then 2F001 and finally restored as 2A.

It gets a bit confusing sometimes - I saw a article recently in Motor Sport UK magazine which had a shot from a Can Am reunion in 2006 (somewhere) and they had a shot of what they said was the 2E but I swear it looked more like the 2G with the cowling around the chevrolet air trumpets/intakes etc.

So have you seen the 2A run at all?

[RA Historian]

Originally posted by Steve Carter
I struck up a friendship some time back with Marilyn Halder(Lothar Mothenbachers ex) who lives in California and she has some quite good home movie footage of the Can Am era including lots on the various Chaparrals - she is also very good friends with Jim & Sandy Hall and was most likely also at the Road America event that shot was taken.

Marilyn comes to RA every few years for the Can Am commemorations. Lovely lady, and a delight to talk to her. In my first book on the track I have a photo of her looking at Lothar's McLaren M8B in 1970. When she was at the track in 2003 I mentioned that to her so she went to the track store and purchased a copy and had me autograph it. I wrote, "To Marilyn, the First Lady of the Can Am". She was so pleased she gave me a big kiss on the cheek. Now how about that!

By the way, Marilyn has a web site, www.foxyventures.com, that has photos and has her DVDs and tapes for sale. She has a number of DVDs that she has compiled from the "home movies" that she made in the 1960s and 70s when she travelled the circuit with Lothar. They are quite interesting.

I do not believe that the car you are referencing immediately above is the 2G. As far as I know, Jim has never restored the 2G after the crash of 1968, at least as of a couple years ago. Take a look again at the photo. Among many other differences between the two, the 2E had rounded sides while the 2G was slab sided.

Tom

[Steve Carter]

Hi Dennis - you are correct with the 2G it was never restored after it crashed in 68 however from the Doug Nye book 'some components used in 2E restoration' which could mean anything. I will take a look back I'm sure its in one of the Motor Sport or Autosport magazines over the past 6 months - and it was the engine cowling in the shot that made me take notice and query at the time - it also wasnt a clean shot of the car as it was in the middle of a row of Can Am cars at the revival meet.
Marilyn is a wonderful person - Ive spoken with her a few times by phone - she and her husband spend quite a bit of time in Italy these days and she also put me in touch with Pete Lyons who you would know also. I think from memory she was indeed Queen of the Can Am initially ie I believe she won a beauty contest at Riverside very early on and thats where she met Lothar.
I have all her DVDs - we did a swap for some of the DVDs I have the license for down here in Australia & New Zealand.
Where can I see details on your Road America book?? I'm very much interested in any history about the various US circuits.

[RA Historian]

Originally posted by Steve Carter
Where can I see details on your Road America book?? I'm very much interested in any history about the various US circuits.

The first book is out of print. That was a race by race, year by year history of the track. The second book is still available. That is the 50th anniversary photo history of the track. Some 468 photos over 50 years, most from my collection. It is available from www.roadamerica.com. The first may be available on some used book websites. If you want any more info, please give me a PM as I do not want to turn this into an advertisement.
Tom

[cstlhn]

Here is a 2E at Road America!



Happy New Year! David

[Allen Brown]

Originally posted by RA Historian
The first book is out of print. That was a race by race, year by year history of the track. The second book is still available. That is the 50th anniversary photo history of the track. Some 468 photos over 50 years, most from my collection. It is available from www.roadamerica.com. The first may be available on some used book websites. If you want any more info, please give me a PM as I do not want to turn this into an advertisement.
Tom

The one I have is "Road America - Five Decades of Racing at Elkhart Lake" published in 1999 (which I thoroughly recommend). What was the title of the first one?

Edit: Or is that the first one and "Road America Celebrating 50 Years of Road Racing" the second one?

Allen

[RA Historian]

Originally posted by cstlhn
Here is a 2E at Road America!



Happy New Year! David

That is the 2G, Sept. 1967.

[RA Historian]

Originally posted by Allen Brown
The one I have is "Road America - Five Decades of Racing at Elkhart Lake" published in 1999 (which I thoroughly recommend). What was the title of the first one?

Edit: Or is that the first one and "Road America Celebrating 50 Years of Road Racing" the second one?

Allen

Allen, that it the first one. The second book came out in mid-2004 and is titled "Road America, Celebrating Fifty Years of Road Racing". While the first book is centered on the history of the track, giving a race by race chronological rundown of all events from the start through 1997, the second book is a photo history with 468 photos covering 50 years with lengthy captions explaining what is happening. The second book is arranged in 13 or so chapters, by race series.
Tom

[Gramps3]

Originally posted by cstlhn
Here is a 2E at Road America!



Happy New Year! David

David,

I was at that race in 1967, my only trip to Road America and what a great experience. Thanks for bringing back such great memories with the photo of the 2E.

Gramps

[RA Historian]

Originally posted by Gramps3


David,

I was at that race in 1967, my only trip to Road America and what a great experience. Thanks for bringing back such great memories with the photo of the 2E.

Gramps

Again, this is a photo of the 2G. This was September, 1967, the first Road America Can Am. The 2E was the 1966 car while the 2G was the 1967 car. This was the debut of the 2G.

[cstlhn]

This photo was taken at Stardust. Please let me know how to identify a 2E from a 2G?



Thanks in advance, David

[2F-001]

The 2Es ran in '66; the 2G in '67 and '68.

Something I'm not entirely convinced of is an accurate description or identity for the restored 2E, which has appeared at both Goodwood and Monterey in recent times.

2E-001 is understood to have become the 2G and thus developed through two seasons until the fightful crash at the end of '68.
2E-002 was, I believe, damaged in the end-of-season Nassau races and not used again.

Some of the surviving bits of 2G were, it is reported, recycled in the revived/restored/recreated (or whatever) 2E. Without digging through my pictures from Goodwood (which are not to hand) I can't recall if that car displayed a chassis plate indicating whether it is considered to be 001, 002 or something else. Any thoughts?