49 replies to this topic

[Bob Simbel]

Hello! I have a little question.

In which nations there is/was a ban for motor racing?

Switzerland from june 1955 to october 2004

France from june 1955 to ??? 1955/56?

Israel from ??? to today

???

[A E Anderson]

Quote

Originally posted by Bob Simbel
Hello! I have a little question.

In which nations there is/was a ban for motor racing?

Switzerland from june 1955 to october 2004

France from june 1955 to ??? 1955/56?

Israel from ??? to today

???

It almost happened in the United States! By many accounts (and the coverage in the then-#1 circulation LIFE Magazine) the short-lived crusade to ban motor racing in the US was spearheaded by Henry Luce, the founder/owner/editor of both LIFE and TIME magazines, following two rather violent and gruesome fatal crashes in 1955, those of Bill Vukovich at Indianapolis, and the horrible, tragic multi-fatality crash by Pierre LeVegh at LeMans 3 weeks later. LIFE Magazine had a policy of solicitiing the most gruesome, graphic photo-series of racing crashes, due to Luce's personal convictions that motor racing was a "gladitorial" contest, the "blood sport" (funny that he didn't carry similar opinions of professional boxing--in which the ultimate goal is to deal one's opponent a severe brain injury, or concussion--the knockout.

Luce, at the time, was both well-connected politically (he was a considerable force in Republican Party politics), and was grooming his wife, Claire Booth Luce, for elective office (she served in the US House of Representatives, later the US Senate, and was mentioned as both a vice-presidential and a presidential candidate). However, the short-lived push for a motor racing ban was bi-partisan, both Republican and Democrat. The swirl of controversy in the summer and early fall of 1955 led the American Automobile Association (AAA) to rethink their sanctioning of automobile racing, and the decision to disband their Contest Board, which happened at the end of the racing season that year (and led to the founding of United States Auto Club, spearheaded by Anton Hulman Jr., owner of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway).

The proposed bills to outlaw motor racing in the US, however, never reached the floor of either the US House of Representatives nor the US Senate, thankfully due to an apparent lack of interest in any such Federal law, on the part of the House and Senate leadership, and the passions cooled rather quickly. Most American state legislatures of the time were in session in the early months of each coming year, so nothing serious happened there either--but it did become gradually more difficult to gain the requisite permits to build new racetracks in much of the US, which holds fairly true in many areas of the country today.

Art

[Vitesse2]

From memory and no research (because it's too late to look ) - I don't think there was ever a formal ban in France after Levegh's crash. But they did significantly tighten safety requirements, which caused the cancellation of some meetings: some of those were never revived.

I wasn't aware of a ban in Israel, but the one race meeting I know of was abandoned after problems with crowd control. That was - IIRC - in 1970.

[Ralliart]

While China has been holding races for the past couple of years, in 1967 "The Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution" was initiated and for three years, no sporting events were held and, I think, the "revolution" went on for years. I wouldn't think North Korea would welcome racing nor, until recently perhaps, would Albania.

[philippe7]

There was also a ban of motor racing in France at the beginning of the first oil crisis ( sorry I don't remember precisely the year , 1971, 1972 ?....) it was a political ( populist ? ) decision by the french government on the pretext of saving petrol. Curiously I recently watched the infamous part of the official announcement by then prime minister Pierre Messmer, since it was replayed on TV a few days ago during a historical broadcsat, at the end of the speech in which he detailed all the clever decisions taken to save fuel, the last sentence he said was " .....and of course, all motor races are suspended from today ".

There was an immediate enormous outcry in the automobile world, quite soon afterwards it was announced that "all commitments to international races" would be be allowed to be fulfilled ( there was some urgency since , IIRC, the Monte-Carlo Rallye was due to start a few days later) but national races remained banned for a few weeks , before the whole thing quietly collapsed and business was allowed to continue as usual....

[Mike Lawrence]

Motor racing ceased during the two World Wars as, and when, nations joined. There was a 1941 season in the States, and the 1940 Gran Premio di Brescia della Mille Miglia. I don't think there was an actual ban, just no fuel.

Israel, I believe, is influenced by religious fundamentalists. These pathetic creatures ignore the fact that the Old Testament is predicated on a three-tier universe. In other words they believe the world is a flat disc supported on pillars, just like Christian and Muslim fundamentalists. They will tend to deny that they believe in a flat earth, so point them to the Bible.

Switzerland banned circuit racing in 1955, but there was anyway only one meeting a year. Switzerland could also be said to have stopped one meeting.

There were some cancellations following the 1955 Le Mans accident, but the number of road circuits in towns actually increased over the next ten years.

[mark f1]

Worries me when I read the court's comments in Italy regarding the current Monza noise issue.

Magistrate Marco Manunta, of the Milan civil court, wrote in his verdict that racing is "a superfluous, dangerous and socially useless activity with a big impact on the environment."

Sounds like if this magistrate had his way, all racing would be banned. If this isn't overturned could the decision spread, starting in Italy?

Mark

[Rob29]

Quote

Originally posted by Bob Simbel
Hello! I have a little question.

In which nations there is/was a ban for motor racing?

Switzerland from june 1955 to october 2004

France from june 1955 to ??? 1955/56?

Israel from ??? to today

???

France banned motor racing after the LeMans disaster.Ban was lifted in time for Montlhery meeting in October.Switzerland cancelled its 55 & 56 GPs,then passed a ban on motor racing in mid 1956,but not rallies ,hill climbs & slaloms! Oct 04? Do you know something I don't Bob? has the ban now been lifted?
Read somewhere that all motorised sport is banned in Saudi Arabia.

[Vitesse2]

Quote

Originally posted by mark f1
Worries me when I read the court's comments in Italy regarding the current Monza noise issue.

Magistrate Marco Manunta, of the Milan civil court, wrote in his verdict that racing is "a superfluous, dangerous and socially useless activity with a big impact on the environment."

Sounds like if this magistrate had his way, all racing would be banned. If this isn't overturned could the decision spread, starting in Italy?

Mark

Methinks hizzonner is under-informed. Just one jumbo jet crossing the Atlantic uses more fuel than an entire Grand Prix weekend: they're not exactly quiet either.

Thinking about it, his description could apply to football as well.

[simonlewisbooks]

Quote

Originally posted by Vitesse2

Methinks hizzonner is under-informed. Just one jumbo jet crossing the Atlantic uses more fuel than an entire Grand Prix weekend: they're not exactly quiet either.

Very true. But then cold logic and hot politics are normally strangers to one another...

Quote

Thinking about it, his description could apply to football as well.

Good point. A lot of speedway and stock car tracks that once flourished in our cities have been closed down or forced 'out of town' (to considerable detriment of the crowd size) on the grounds of noise, despite all running silencers these days. Yet a large inner city football stadium with a crowd in the tens of thousands must create a very considerable sustained noise, sometimes several times a week and I can't recall many of them being close down in a similar fashion.

Simon Lewis

[Roger Clark]

Quote

Originally posted by philippe7
There was also a ban of motor racing in France at the beginning of the first oil crisis ( sorry I don't remember precisely the year , 1971, 1972 ?....) it was a political ( populist ? ) decision by the french government on the pretext of saving petrol. Curiously I recently watched the infamous part of the official announcement by then prime minister Pierre Messmer, since it was replayed on TV a few days ago during a historical broadcsat, at the end of the speech in which he detailed all the clever decisions taken to save fuel, the last sentence he said was " .....and of course, all motor races are suspended from today ".

There was an immediate enormous outcry in the automobile world, quite soon afterwards it was announced that "all commitments to international races" would be be allowed to be fulfilled ( there was some urgency since , IIRC, the Monte-Carlo Rallye was due to start a few days later) but national races remained banned for a few weeks , before the whole thing quietly collapsed and business was allowed to continue as usual....

It was late '73. There may have been a similar ban in the UK, there certainly was one on rallies and race lengths were reduced.

[Bob Simbel]

Quote

Originally posted by Rob29
Oct 04? Do you know something I don't Bob? has the ban now been lifted?

Ehm... maybe yes.

I've read on Autosprint n. 39 (28 september/4 october 2004) that 22 september 2004:

"SI ALLE CORSE IN SVIZZERA" "...la storica decisione è stata adottata mercoledì della scorsa settimana (22/09) a Berna dal Consiglio Nazionale tramite una votazione che ha fatto registrare 88 pareri favorevoli, 75 contrari e 6 astensioni..."

"YES TO THE RACE IN SWITZERLAND" "...the historical decision has been adopted Wednesday of slid week (22/09) to Bern from the National Council through a voting that it has made to record 88 favorable opinions, 75 contrarys and 6 abstentions..."

I'm italian but I love racing and Switzerland!!!!! It is from 1991 that I waited for this decision!

[Bob Simbel]

Quote

Originally posted by Vitesse2


I wasn't aware of a ban in Israel, but the one race meeting I know of was abandoned after problems with crowd control. That was - IIRC - in 1970.

I have listened to an interview to Nissany (Israeli pilot of the Jordan), which he said that to become pilot of F1 he would perhaps have contributed to cancel the prohibition to run in its country (or it meant in religious sense?)

I don't know

[D-Type]

Racing on public roads has always been banned in Britain - the Birmingham race required a special act of Parliament. And then there was the 'red flag' law which lasted until 1896.

But does anybody know why there was such strong opposition to motoring and motor racing in Britain? I assume the red flag law was to avoid frightening horses, but why the ban on racing?

[Rob29]

Red Flag law was the Road Locomotive Act and dated from before the invention of the internal combustion engine! It referred to what we call traction engines which did frighten the horses.

[Rob29]

Quote

Originally posted by Bob Simbel



Ehm... maybe yes.

I've read on Autosprint n. 39 (28 september/4 october 2004) that 22 september 2004:

"SI ALLE CORSE IN SVIZZERA" "...la storica decisione è stata adottata mercoledì della scorsa settimana (22/09) a Berna dal Consiglio Nazionale tramite una votazione che ha fatto registrare 88 pareri favorevoli, 75 contrari e 6 astensioni..."

"YES TO THE RACE IN SWITZERLAND" "...the historical decision has been adopted Wednesday of slid week (22/09) to Bern from the National Council through a voting that it has made to record 88 favorable opinions, 75 contrarys and 6 abstentions..."

I'm italian but I love racing and Switzerland!!!!! It is from 1991 that I waited for this decision!

Yes,I remember the proposal to hold a Historic meeting,almost had my flight booked! It was cancelled-so I will continue my economic boycott of Switzerland-have never been there.

[Vitesse2]

Quote

Originally posted by Rob29
Red Flag law was the Road Locomotive Act and dated from before the invention of the internal combustion engine! It referred to what we call traction engines which did frighten the horses.

That was the excuse used, but quite a lot of the pressure for the Red Flag Act came from the railway companies, most of whom can be assumed to have at least an MP or two in their pockets, and who saw lucrative traffic disappearing when commercially viable steam omnibuses became a prospect after the reduction and/or abolition of many road tolls. Boiler explosions are sometimes cited as well.

Let's face it, a steam omnibus was no more likely to scare a horse than a steam railway locomotive: it was no more likely to suffer a boiler explosion either.

For more details, see "Steam Cars" by Lord Montagu and Anthony Bird (Cassell 1971) pp 56-8 et seq.

[D-Type]

The railway lobby makes sense. After all they also had horses in places like Belgium, France, Germany, Italy and the USA but no anti-car laws like the Road Locomotive Act.

But that doesn't explain why Britain also banned road racing.

Edited by D-Type, 29 May 2013 - 10:22.

[Vitesse2]

Duncan: as I understand it, racing on public roads was not banned per se until the 1920s. However, to hold an event would have involved an Act of Parliament to rescind the blanket 12mph speed limit: there was still a strong anti-car lobby in both Houses, so it would probably have been very difficult to achieve. It was done in Ireland for the 1903 GBT for political reasons and to encourage tourism (the limit there was 14mph, BTW) and in the Manx Tynwald in double-quick time to enable the GBT trials and the TT - tourism was again (originally) the spur. Semi-official road closures did take place in some areas of England, but this depended upon the attitude of the local Constabulary.

The rules for the 1000 Mile Trial in 1900 state that it is "in no way a race" and that there will be severe penalties for any contestant exceeding the 12mph limit (10mph in Scotland, 8mph in towns). But if you examine the published results, it's amazing how many contestants managed to maintain an average of exactly 12 or 10 mph over considerable distances and variable terrain!

On a more practical note, English roads were not exactly suitable for racing, being twisty and going through many small towns and villages. Compared to the long straight Napoleonic roads of France and the military road network in Ireland for example ....

[simonlewisbooks]

Quote

Originally posted by Vitesse2
On a more practical note, English roads were not exactly suitable for racing, being twisty and going through many small towns and villages. Compared to the long straight Napoleonic roads of France and the military road network in Ireland for example ....

That is a good point, we have always suffered from bleedin' awefull roads and horrendous standards of maintainence compared to, for instance, France. It's still the same today, a visit across the channel reaveals amazingly few road works and far better roads in even the most rural areas.

However the roads in rural England can't have been much worse than in Sicily can they?
I guess we never had a guy as influantial as Florio to fight the corner of motor racing?

The bottom line has always seemed to be the serious anti-car attitude in successive Parliments, dominated either by the 'horse set' on the right or the 'high principle' lot on the left - both intent on using anti-car/pro-ecological rhetoric as an excuse to make stacks of cash out of ever greater taxes.

The problem has always been; no matter who you vote in the basic attitude remains the same. I think it's laughingly called "democracy".

Simon Lewis

[Vitesse2]

On main roads, England would have had far better surfaces than Sicily, thanks to the Turnpike Trusts, who made the first major improvements since the Romans left, straightening and diverting many routes to ease traffic between major trade centres. Unfortunately, they didn't have jurisdiction within towns - not that they could have done much without wholesale demolition in many of them: equally, no town wanted to be by-passed, so the turnpikes generally stopped on the outskirts and then resumed after you'd negotiated the medieval town centre!

And compared to Sicily, even rural England was densely populated.

[Graham Clayton]

Slightly O/T, but in 1939 Italian cars were banned from racing in France. Was this decision politically motivated?

[Rob G]

Graham Clayton, on May 28 2013, 20:17, said:

Slightly O/T, but in 1939 Italian cars were banned from racing in France. Was this decision politically motivated?

Yes. Mussolini forbade Italian cars and drivers from racing in France due primarily to French involvement in the Spanish Civil War.

[Vitesse2]

Rob G, on May 29 2013, 02:50, said:

Yes. Mussolini forbade Italian cars and drivers from racing in France due primarily to French involvement in the Spanish Civil War.

That's the way it's often presented, but it's far more complicated than that, Rob. All Italian sportsmen and women were barred from competing in France from late December 1938, but the Spanish Civil War was almost over by then and it actually has much more to do with territorial disputes over Savoy and in North Africa.

[Supersox]

Vitesse2, on Nov 21 2005, 10:47, said:

Duncan: as I understand it, racing on public roads was not banned per se until the 1920s. However, to hold an event would have involved an Act of Parliament to rescind the blanket 12mph speed limit: there was still a strong anti-car lobby in both Houses, so it would probably have been very difficult to achieve. It was done in Ireland for the 1903 GBT for political reasons and to encourage tourism (the limit there was 14mph, BTW) and in the Manx Tynwald in double-quick time to enable the GBT trials and the TT - tourism was again (originally) the spur. Semi-official road closures did take place in some areas of England, but this depended upon the attitude of the local Constabulary.

The rules for the 1000 Mile Trial in 1900 state that it is "in no way a race" and that there will be severe penalties for any contestant exceeding the 12mph limit (10mph in Scotland, 8mph in towns). But if you examine the published results, it's amazing how many contestants managed to maintain an average of exactly 12 or 10 mph over considerable distances and variable terrain!

On a more practical note, English roads were not exactly suitable for racing, being twisty and going through many small towns and villages. Compared to the long straight Napoleonic roads of France and the military road network in Ireland for example ....

Where's the historian today.There was a hillclimb -Aston Clinton maybe-in the 20's where there was an accident someone was killed and with a matter of months road closures for motor sport were banned outright.Or something like that

[David McKinney]

Kop Hill - and the spectator wasn't killed. He had his leg broken

There had never been formal road closures for speed events in England - and wouldn't be until, IIRC, the Birmingham Grand Prix in the 1980s. Same rules didn't apply in other parts of the British Isles, such as the Channel Islands, or in Ireland (North and South), so English drivers wishing to race on road courses had to cross either the Irish Sea or the English Channel

[Vitesse2]

Vitesse2, on Jan 25 2012, 22:49, said:

Racing on public roads was never legal, but the authorities generally turned a blind eye to hillclimbs and sprints, with temporary closures being nodded through by local councils and police forces, providing the event was sanctioned by the RAC. That stopped abruptly in 1925 after a non-fatal accident involving spectators at Kop Hill, Princes Risborough: the RAC decided they would no longer sanction events on public roads.

See Pete Stowe's and my subsequent posts in the same thread ...

[Allan Lupton]

Supersox, on May 30 2013, 10:24, said:

Where's the historian today.There was a hillclimb -Aston Clinton maybe-in the 20's where there was an accident someone was killed and with a matter of months road closures for motor sport were banned outright.Or something like that

All those hillclimbs pre-1925 were not legal events and the roads were not officially closed. Near here at Gravel Hill it is known that on one occasion when the police appeared the event was moved round the corner to Pegsdon - the police being "fooled" by a diversion in the other direction!
The results were not normally expressed as times over the timed distance (or the distance was not revealed!) lest someone in authority worked out that the (post-1903) 20 m.p.h. speed limit had been exceeded.

ETA overtaken by Vitesse2 when I was answering the door in mid-composition of this post!
Hey Ho!

Edited by Allan Lupton, 30 May 2013 - 10:19.

[Ray Bell]

Quote

Originally posted by Mike Lawrence
Motor racing ceased during the two World Wars as, and when, nations joined. There was a 1941 season in the States, and the 1940 Gran Premio di Brescia della Mille Miglia. I don't think there was an actual ban, just no fuel.....

There is some fallacy in this...

Australia joined the war on the first day (or second?), yet some racing went on. January 1940 saw the Lobethal meeting held as scheduled, Bathurst went ahead with its Easter meeting in 1940.

Without my regular reference works at hand I can't put dates on the Pingelly and Applecross meetings in Western Australia, but the Applecross event is of particular interest because it promoted sales of war bonds with the main race termed the Patriotic Grand Prix and encouraged alternate fuels with a sedan car race for cars fitted with gas producers.

Penrith Speedway was also still running into 1941, IIRC...

Quote

.....Israel, I believe, is influenced by religious fundamentalists. These pathetic creatures ignore the fact that the Old Testament is predicated on a three-tier universe. In other words they believe the world is a flat disc supported on pillars, just like Christian and Muslim fundamentalists. They will tend to deny that they believe in a flat earth, so point them to the Bible.....

This part of the post shows a high level of ignorance, but it's hardly worth explaining the detail as the poster hasn't been seen around here for a long time. Suffice it to say that the bible does mention that the earth is a globe and that it's sitting on nothing.

Quote

.....There were some cancellations following the 1955 Le Mans accident, but the number of road circuits in towns actually increased over the next ten years.

There was a lot of nervousness in Australia too, but no bans. Many town councils involved in Western Australia's 'Round the Houses' type racing looked hard at the risks, some meetings were cancelled, but ultimately things settled down. For the time being. In NSW the Speedways Act was to follow on with much higher levels of protection for spectators mandated.

[Arjan de Roos]

Bob Simbel, on Nov 17 2005, 22:15, said:

In which nations there is/was a ban for motor racing?

To come back on the original question: Gibraltar banned racing after the first GP held there. It had something to do with flooding the track. I still have the record somewhere ;-)

[tsrwright]

Bob Simbel, on Nov 18 2005, 06:15, said:

2203974[/url]']
Hello! I have a little question.

In which nations there is/was a ban for motor racing?

Switzerland from june 1955 to october 2004

France from june 1955 to ??? 1955/56?

Israel from ??? to today

???

Singapore, at least when I was there in 1975. Different now but same authoritarian regime.

New South Wales except in accordance with a licence for racing issued under the
SPEEDWAY RACING (PUBLIC SAFETY) ACT Act No. 69, 1957. An Act to make provision for the control of speedway racing, tests and trials between motor vehicles; to amend the Metropolitan. Traffic Act ...

Victoria, I believe, at the time of the first Phillip Island race of 1928 and I wonder what the position was subsequently? I don't think there was road racing anywhere else in that state.

Edited by tsrwright, 01 June 2013 - 03:39.

[MatthewMagilton]

There was a ban on motor racing on the Australian mainland until approx' 1936? Which is why the early G.P's were held at Phillip Island which was then just a short ferry ride from the Victorian coast (and a popular holiday destination).

Matthew.

[tsrwright]

QUOTE (Vitesse2 @ Jan 25 2012, 22:49) Racing on public roads was never legal, but the authorities generally turned a blind eye to hillclimbs and sprints, with temporary closures being nodded through by local councils and police forces, providing the event was sanctioned by the RAC. That stopped abruptly in 1925 after a non-fatal accident involving spectators at Kop Hill, Princes Risborough: the RAC decided they would no longer sanction events on public roads.

It would be good to nail this down fact-wise as I don't think this or previous threads have yet done this. My limited understanding is as follows:

1. The Highways Act 1835 made it an offence to drive recklessly, negligently or furiously; obviously that applied to driving horses but did it apply to other vehicles?

2. The Locomotive Act 1865 imposed a speed limit of 4mph in open country and 2mph in towns with three men (persons?) to be in attendance with one to be 60yds ahead carrying a red flag by day and a red lantern by night.

3. The Highways and Locomotives Act 1878 relaxed some of these restriction with the requirement for the red flag or lamp to be optional according to the wishes of the local authority.

4. The Locomotives on Highways Act 1896 required lights at night, a means of audible warning, a speed limit of 14mph or any less speed prescribed by the Local Government Board, and an excise duty of 2 or 3 guineas. The regulations went a lot further and drivers were required not to drive faster than was reasonable and proper, having regard to the traffic on the highway .... The LGB decided on 12mph.

5. The Light Locomotives (Ireland) Act 1903 provided all that was necessary for the Gordon Bennett race and may well have continued to allow racing subsequently without further legislation. It may well have applied to what became Northern Ireland but I do not know. Nor do I have any details of legislation that might have been required locally In the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands. It would be useful to know more.

6. The Motor Car Act 1904 made it an offence to drive a motor car on the public highway recklessly, or negligently or at a speed or in a manner dangerous to the public, having regard to all the circumstances. A separate part imposed a speed limit of 20mph with the LGB empowered to impose limits of 10mph at the request of the local authority.

7. The Motor Car Races Bill 1924 and the Motor Races (Authorisation and Regulation) Bill 1925 were unsuccessful attempts to get enabling legislation through Parliament.

8. The Road Traffic Act 1930 abolished the speed limit(s) but made it an offence to promote or take part in an organised race or trial of speed between motor vehicles on a road ...

Until the 1930 Act I am not sure that racing or speed events were illegal on the public highway other than on the grounds of speed but there must have been tacit consent or otherwise in this respect at least by local authorities in conjunction with the police. But were there ever actual officially sanctioned road closures?

The principal problem was that organisers had no powers to control where the public walked, stood or sat during competition and it was for these reasons that the RAC Competition Committee announced on 2 April 1925 (after the Kop accident) that it would not issue any more permits (and existing ones were cancelled) for events on public road. Up until February 1923 permits had not been required by the RAC for closed-to-club events.

Much of the above comes from William Powden, The Motor Car and Politics in Britain 1896-1970, The Bodley head, 1971. Unfortunately I do not have ready access to the legislation although the parliamentary debates in Hansard are on-line. Nothing appears to survive in the RAC archives. It would be interesting if more could be added (or indeed the above corrected) by anyone who does have such access.

[Vitesse2]

Just about all Westminster legislation is on-line, Terry: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/

As I pointed out before, there's a Parliamentary answer by Sir William Joynson-Hicks - then Home Secretary - which seems to tie all the mid-20s stuff together:

http://hansard.millb...19260715_CWA_30

Joynson-Hicks was by no means anti-motoring, since he was a founder-member of the Motor Union, of which he became chairman: he filled the same role at the AA when they merged and only relinquished the post when he reached the higher echelons of government.

Robert Kelly's book "TT Pioneers" says that the Manx legislation was the 1904 Highways (Light Locomotive) Act, mainly modelled on the Light Locomotives (Ireland) Act, which was rushed through the Tynwald in March 1904.

edit: The relevant Tynwald legislation is not available online - yet!

As I understand it, the Northern Irish legislation is still based on the Dublin Parliament's 1903 law.

The Jersey legislation is from late 1946, I believe: the original plan was to run a race there in September 1946, but the States was not able to pass the law in time, so it was postponed until 1947.

edit: The Jersey law is here: Jersey Law 1/1947 MOTOR VEHICLE RACES (JERSEY) LAW, 1946.

AFAIK there's never been a circuit race in Guernsey - only hill climbs. Were these perhaps on private roads?

Edited by Vitesse2, 01 June 2013 - 11:20.

[Ray Bell]

Quote

Originally posted by MatthewMagilton
There was a ban on motor racing on the Australian mainland until approx' 1936? Which is why the early G.P's were held at Phillip Island which was then just a short ferry ride from the Victorian coast (and a popular holiday destination).

As these laws would have been state laws, you must be implying that there was a ban on racing on public roads on the Victorian mainland.

However, this would not have been the case. Laws are not selective like that, the racing at Phillip Island was, as I understand it, a 'wink and a nod' job, "We're not a part of Victoria," essentially. But it was, but blind eyes were turned.

I don't have the details (such as I do have...) here with me, but I believe a lot of it was all up to local police. This applied in a lot of places, Western Australia in particular.

In Queensland the 1936 Woody Point High Speed Reliability Trial was held largely to prove the viability of racing on public roads. It did quite the opposite thanks to a few characters involved and served only to undermine the efforts the RACQ (when it was a motorists' club) had been making to convince authorities to allow racing on public roads.

[wenoopy]

MatthewMagilton, on Jun 1 2013, 13:48, said:

There was a ban on motor racing on the Australian mainland until approx' 1936? Which is why the early G.P's were held at Phillip Island which was then just a short ferry ride from the Victorian coast (and a popular holiday destination).

Matthew.

Is this correct? I don't recall mention of it in "The Official 50-race history of the Australian Grand Prix", to which several TNF members were authors or contributors. Was Phillip Island simply a convenient place, handy to Melbourne, with a small local population which would not be likely to oppose the motor racing? I note that the races were run in late March/April, hardly the height of the summer season.

Stu

[Ray Bell]

Stu, there is definitely something there about it...

Probably in the story about the 1928 race.

[Tim Murray]

Vitesse2, on Jun 1 2013, 07:24, said:

AFAIK there's never been a circuit race in Guernsey - only hill climbs. Were these perhaps on private roads?

As a former Guernsey resident I'm not aware of any circuit race held on the island apart from the sand racing. The hillclimbs and sprints on both Guernsey and Alderney are all held on closed public roads.

[Vitesse2]

Tim Murray, on Jun 1 2013, 18:28, said:

As a former Guernsey resident I'm not aware of any circuit race held on the island apart from the sand racing. The hillclimbs and sprints on both Guernsey and Alderney are all held on closed public roads.

The current law in Guernsey seems to be based on the provisions of what was originally called The Control of Motor-Bicycle Racing (Guernsey) Ordinance, 1948. The original doesn't seem to be online, but two amendments from 1968 and 1970 are:

http://www.guernseyl...p...d=67705&p=0

http://www.guernseyl...p...d=68379&p=0

It's now consolidated into The Road Traffic (Speed Limits and Trials) Ordinance, 1987. See pages 8-9:

http://www.guernseyl...p...d=68259&p=0

Presumably this superseded previous legislation, since there were certainly hillclimbs in Guernsey before 1948.

[tsrwright]

Vitesse2, on Jun 1 2013, 16:24, said:

Just about all Westminster legislation is on-line, Terry: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/

...

Thank you for all that, Richard, and the other references. I hadn't previously been able to find specific historic legislation on the National Archives site but I have now looked more carefully for the references I listed:

. The Highways Act 1835 is there however doesn't have the offences I stated.
. The Locomotive Act of 1861 is there but not that of 1865 which was what I referenced, yet in other legislation on the site the 1865 act is mentioned as amended.
. The Highways and Locomotives (Amendment) Act 1878 doesn't say anything at all about red flags or lamps.
. The Locomotives on Highways Act of 1896 is not listed but the Locomotives Act of 1898 is and states it is amending the law on 'Locomotives on Highways'.
. The Light Locomotives (Ireland) Act 1903 and the Motor Car Act 1904 are not there either.

This seems to be the official explanation:

Q. Why isn’t the legislation I am looking for on this site? A. There are two reasons why the item you are looking for is not on this site:

• It may be that we do not carry the item of legislation you are looking for because it is not available in a web publishable format. This is the most likely reason if you are looking for an old legislation item that was repealed before our basedate of 1991. You may be able to obtain a printed copy from The British Library which runs a photocopying service of official publications (including legislation) which they hold, or try the Parliamentary Archives website.

Edited by tsrwright, 02 June 2013 - 04:03.

[tsrwright]

wenoopy, on Jun 1 2013, 20:40, said:

Is this correct? I don't recall mention of it in "The Official 50-race history of the Australian Grand Prix", to which several TNF members were authors or contributors. Was Phillip Island simply a convenient place, handy to Melbourne, with a small local population which would not be likely to oppose the motor racing? I note that the races were run in late March/April, hardly the height of the summer season.

Stu

Terry Walker's Fast Tracks, p128 states " ... the government of Victoria was hostile ...legislation passed way back in 1904 prohibited it " and "At one stage the State Government through the Police threatened to close the racing ... the new Government said, in effect, so long as the Club ran the races well, the Government would not intervene".

I can only find one other Victoria road circuit of those times, Benalla, of which Terry writes "By some miracle as yet unexplained the Government 'allowed' (or at least failed to prevent) ... a motor race. ... The Benella road circuit was never used again as the Government remained hostile to mainland road racing".

Pure speculation, but if the local council had powers to close a road and local police were supportive then unless legislation specifically forbade racing as such
it was presumably simple enough to do it.

[wenoopy]

Ray Bell, on Jun 1 2013, 23:00, said:

Stu, there is definitely something there about it...

Probably in the story about the 1928 race.

Ray, you are right, of course.

The introduction states "Phillip Island, it transpired, was initially run in breach of certain laws, and it was touch and go whether they would be amended" and the 1929 report : "... the announcement that the Government was to pass a bill allowing racing on 12 days of the year" was a sign of "the maturity of the event".

Otherwise, distance from the seat of government tends to have a diluting effect on the enforcement of laws, especially if no-one is complaining.

Stu

[Vitesse2]

Terry: Wikisource has the text of the Light Locomotives (Ireland) Act 1903. It must have been extended in some way, because the text specifically states it expires at the end of 1903!

For the early legislation you might find Pratt's Law of Highways useful.

[Ray Bell]

Quote

Originally posted by wenoopy
Ray, you are right, of course.

The introduction states "Phillip Island, it transpired, was initially run in breach of certain laws, and it was touch and go whether they would be amended" and the 1929 report : "... the announcement that the Government was to pass a bill allowing racing on 12 days of the year" was a sign of "the maturity of the event".

Otherwise, distance from the seat of government tends to have a diluting effect on the enforcement of laws, especially if no-one is complaining.

Probably not the distance, Stu, rather the determination of the local authorities...

What a shame I didn't put more in the story about it! I would have had some source material with more detail than that, all provided from Graham's research. This came in the form of magazine reports of the time, sometimes newspaper clippings.

I'm sure you would find more if you went to newspaper records.

[tsrwright]

Vitesse2, on Jun 2 2013, 16:54, said:

Terry: Wikisource has the text of the Light Locomotives (Ireland) Act 1903. It must have been extended in some way, because the text specifically states it expires at the end of 1903!

For the early legislation you might find Pratt's Law of Highways useful.

Thanks, might as well post the whole act:

A B I L L TO
—— Provide for the Authorisation of Races with Light Locomotives in Ireland.

BE it enacted by the King’s most Excellent Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, in this present Parliament assembled, and by the authority of the same, as follows:——

Authorisation of races with light locomotives.
1.—(1) The Council of any administrative county may, on the application of any persons or club by order declare that any roads within the county may be used for races with light locomotives during the whole or part of any days specified in order, not exceeding three days in the year.

(2) The order may contain such provisions as the county council may think fit for the temporary suspension and regulation of other traffic for the safety of the public, for the restriction of speed in populous places, and for other purposes incident to the proper conduct of such races. (3) Public notice shall be given of the provisions of the order by placards on the roads so authorised to be used. (4) No provisions of any Act, byelaw, or regulation, restricting the speed of locomotives or imposing any penalty for furious driving shall apply to any light locomotive, or the driver thereof, engaged in such races save so far as the same may be incorporated with the order. Expenses of the county council.

2. The expenses incurred by a county council in carrying any order under this Act into effect shall be defrayed by the applicants, and the county council may before granting the order require the applicants to make such deposit as may in their opinion be necessary to defray such expenses.
——
Definition.
3. In this Act the expression "light locomotives" shall have the same meaning as in the Locomotives on Highways Act, 1896, and all other expressions shall have the same meaning as in the Local Government (Ireland) Act, 1898.

Extent and citation.
4.—(1) This Act shall extend to Ireland only and may be cited as the Light Locomotives (Ireland) Act, 1903.

(2.) This Act shall only remain in force until the thirty-first day of December one thousand nine hundred and three.

Note the reference to 'furious driving' so that offence must have been a relevant issue, not just speed.

Edited by tsrwright, 03 June 2013 - 04:17.

[tsrwright]

The parliamentary archives can supply all the legislation in question on CD all for GBP13.50. It will be interesting to read all that red flag stuff.

[Vitesse2]

Vitesse2, on 01 Jun 2013 - 06:24, said:

As I understand it, the Northern Irish legislation is still based on the Dublin Parliament's 1903 law.

 

Just watching a programme on BBC4 on the North West 200: they mentioned a Stormont Act called the Road Races Act of 1922.

 

Quote

 

The roads were not officially closed for these early meetings - indeed they were run without permission being sought from the local authorities. They relied on the co-operation of the local constabulary, who manned road junctions and kept the roads clear of traffic and spectators. In the Irish Cyclist & Motor Cyclist in October 1921, leading Ulster Centre official, Bob Wright, was quoted as saying that, ‘Racing is now completely out of hand. Road races are being held without a permit. The MCUI is abdicating its responsibilities. Races are being held against the law and against the MCUI Constitution. This must stop!’

The ‘road racing question’ was considered at the MCUI Inter Centre Conference in Dundalk on 11th March 1922. Thomas Murphy proposed that, ‘no permits shall be issued by the Union for a speed competition on the road (other than a hill climb) unless the promoting body procure permission from the properly constituted authority to hold the event’. This motion was seconded by Robert McCann and al agreed.

The following year proved to be a momentous one for motor cycling in Northern Ireland with the Road Races Act reaching the statute books in May 1922, thanks mainly to the efforts of Thomas Moles MP, editor of the Belfast Telegraph and a leading member of the Ulster Motor Cycle and Ulster Automobile Clubs. Moles was also President of the Ulster Centre from 1923-’27.

http://www.belfastgu...acing-in-ulster

[William Hunt]

Rob29, on 19 Nov 2005 - 08:42, said:

... It was cancelled-so I will continue my economic boycott of Switzerland

 

Well, you could eat Belgian chocolate instead of Swiss chocolate, it tastes better anyway

Edited by William Hunt, 14 November 2013 - 15:58.

[tsrwright]

I eventually collected together all the early UK legislation and have put a copy on CD in the VSCC library. It's mainly about what now we would call traction engines an not frightening horses, which was a bit of a problem.

[The Mountaineer]

I found some differing opinions about the situation in Switzerland. Actually, it looks like that:

 

Switzerland allows hillclimbs, slaloms and rallyes, but despite recent political activities from interested parties circuit racing is banned.

 

Lignières, our only circuit, has a still valid special permission for a small number of events (4 or 6 in a year, bikes included). This allowed for some national and even international racing at Lignières in the past. Best known was the historic event of Ecurie La Meute from Geneva, last held in 1995. Sometimes even with British participation, I remember Phoebe Rolt in a F Junior and also a Mr Burnett or Barnett in a Lancia Aurelia GT. Apart from that, club racing with officially no spectators was tolerated from 1961 to about 1998.

 

For 2014, another historic meeting is planned by the new owners of the circuit.

 

Is there a chance to meet you there, Rob29?