64 replies to this topic

[Bondurand]

Patrick Neve entered the Belgium Grand Prix of 78 with a 781 March DFV.

What precisely was the name of the entrant?
Why did he not participate in the practice?

Is there a picture?

Thanks in advance !

[Twin Window]

His was entered under 'Patrick Neve', and he failed to pre-qualify...

[Marc Ceulemans]

I remember a picture was published elsewhere (in a French or Belgian magazine), maybe Auto Hebdo - Belgique... in 1978

[simonlewisbooks]

Do we percieve from this that the 781 actually had enough fuel capacity to run a GP distance?

I had always assumed the 781 was stop-gap affair, an F2 chassis + a DFV , put together entirely for Aurora British F1 events, which were of course a bit shorter than a Grand Prix. It's record of 3 wins a 2nd and two 3rds in about a season and a half in the class gives you the impression it did it's job quite well.
Was it actually originally intended for Grands Prix and was a 1978 March factory team on the books?

Along similar lines didn't the ground effect Surtees TS20+ have insufficient tank capacity for a GP as well and wasn't the first Dallara F1 car an F3000 in disguise, again without the tanks to run a full GP distance (pre fuel stop era of course)?

Simon Lewis
Transport Books
www.simonlewis.com

[Ralliart]

I hope it's the same period - but there's some material on Neve's time with Frank Williams in, not suprisingly, "Racers", and some photos. Williams wasn't too thrilled with Neve. Book's not handy at the moment. If it's not the same time period, apologies.

[Bondurand]

Originally posted by Ralliart
I hope it's the same period -

Actually it's the year after.

Patrick Neve drove a Williams-runned March 761 (1 year old design but brand new chassis N°7, never used before by the works team) in 1977 with Belle Vue (a belgian beer) as main sponsor.

I would have love to see a picture or to know about Patrick's sponsors in 78.

Anyway a picture of another 781 would be equally fine

[simonlewisbooks]

Here's Val Musetti's car at Mallory in 1979 - note the apparently huge ground clearance under the nose...



Simon Lewis
Transport Books
www.simonlewis.com

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by Bondurand


Patrick Neve drove a Williams-runned March 761 (1 year old design but brand new chassis N°7, never used before by the works team) in 1977 with Belle Vue (a belgian beer) as main sponsor.

That's not strictly true - it was a new chassis number but the components weren't all new, including the chassis.

When Williams bought March 761-7, in 1977, they wanted a car that was as cheap as possible - the build sheet says "manufactured from as many second hand components as possible".

When Patrick crashed the car, prior to the Belgian GP, they discovered orange paint underneath, so it was a used chassis - popular theory being that it was the tub from the 751 that Brambilla won the Austrian GP in.

Williams claim to have been surprised that the tub was previously used, but given that the build sheet says it was an updated 751 tub that was probably only news to the people who actually paid for the car!

Limited time before the Belgian GP meant that it supposedly received a new tub rather than being repaired, but the build sheet doesn't mention this (and it was updated in 78 to say that Jorg Zaborowski was the next owner).

[Frank de Jong]

So I suppose that this March 761 was not one of the six Monza-winning cars

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by Frank de Jong
So I suppose that this March 761 was not one of the six Monza-winning cars

One of the few - it was originally orange not blue & yellow!!!

[Bondurand]

Originally posted by Peter Morley


One of the few - it was originally orange not blue & yellow!!!

March 761 is one of the most fascinating cars for me. Mainly because it seemed to pop up everywhere in WC and non-WC races at the hand of strange unknown pilots.

See Oppitzhauser :
http://www.oppitzhauser-racing.com/


It seems that there are still some stories that were untold (at least to me)

Did March sold several chassis as the Monza-winner? What is the true story behind your jokes?

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by Bondurand


March 761 is one of the most fascinating cars for me. Mainly because it seemed to pop up everywhere in WC and non-WC races at the hand of strange unknown pilots.

See Oppitzhauser :
http://www.oppitzhauser-racing.com/


It seems that there are still some stories that were untold (at least to me)

Did March sold several chassis as the Monza-winner? What is the true story behind your jokes?

March 761 is a good car, they were one of the few competitive F1 cars that you could buy, they are also relatively cheap/simple to run (a lot of the components, like suspension pedals etc, were mass produced so the price was reasonable), which made them attractive to the "strange unknown pilots".

761-7 is going to be prepared by Mecauto who prepared the 761 that Rodrigo Gallego won the TGP championship in last year - so they are still reasonably competitive.

There are loads of stories about March (was it the head of the FIA who swung the timing board in front of the timing beam to help with the lap times?), some of those that have been published are pretty unbelievable I can only imagine what the unpublished stories are like!

March just sold anything they could, in those days a race winning car had no premium (in fact a Brambilla car was probably less attractive than a back of the grid car that wouldn't have been driven anything like as hard).

But a lot of current March 761 owners apparently say their car is Peterson's race winner.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Peter Morley


But a lot of current March 761 owners apparently say their car is Peterson's race winner.

I think the confusion is around 761/3, 761/8, 761/1, and 761/6. 761/3 (Ronnie's car at the start of '76) was retubbed as 761/6, but then "another" 761/6 seems to become Ronnie's usual mount and the Monza winner. The original 761/3 tub ended up under 761/1 for Vittorio, IIRC. One of these became /8.

There are different versions of this in Mike Lawrence's book and on Allen Brown's site, it's clearly a very complex issue and I would hate to say which "entity" has the most bits that Ronnie was using at Monza.

(I spent a while several years ago trying to sort out the histories of /3 and /8 for someone who had a car that claimed to be /3; all he needed to know for TGP was that it'd actually been on the grid of a GP!)

Oh - and 761/3 was originally a retub of 751/1, IIRC.....
:

[David M. Kane]

This nothing new, March was famous for this...I have one of the seven 741s made, it plate says 741/2, but obviously there are more than one 741/2. Interesting another 741/1 is also raced out of another shop a few blocks away from ours here in in Indy...741/1.

To my knowledge there is only one Robin Herd. They tried cloning him, but they never could get the
texture and the correct color of brown right...

Just kidding, I only met the man once in the '70s and he didn't seem all that bad for a man in a very desperate situation.

[Bondurand]

Originally posted by simonlewisbooks
Do we percieve from this that the 781 actually had enough fuel capacity to run a GP distance?

I had always assumed the 781 was stop-gap affair, an F2 chassis + a DFV , put together entirely for Aurora British F1 events, which were of course a bit shorter than a Grand Prix.
Simon Lewis
Transport Books
www.simonlewis.com

IIRC The ATS team did run for the first GP a chassis made by March. looking at pics, it seems to present some features of the Musetti car that was sent.

I'd love to see a picture of Neve's to compare with those 2 cars.

[Allen Brown]

The Monza winner became a 761B for 1977 and was then bought mid-season by Peterson for his museum and returned to 761 spec by March. Ronnie died before the museum project came to fruition and I can't recall where I last heard of the car. Because his main car had been 761/3 until shortly before Monza, I think there was an attempt to pass off 761/3 as the Monza winner. I think they may have tried "Peterson's famous March from Monza 1976" because it was his spare at that race. Nice try...

Neve's 781 was returned to Bicester to have smaller tanks fitted before its first BF1 race. Well, that was the story.

Originally posted by David M. Kane
Interesting another 741/1 is also raced out of another shop a few blocks away from ours here in in Indy...741/1.

David - I've been looking for that car. Can you tell me who now owns it? PM me if you prefer.

Thanks

Allen

[David M. Kane]

Allen:

741/1 is own by Deane Tank of Napierville, Illinois, an Insurance Executive. Send me your email and I forward some photos, I don't how to pst them from desktop onto this site and I am untrainable!

[j-ickx-fan]

Originally posted by Bondurand
Patrick Neve entered the Belgium Grand Prix of 78 with a 781 March DFV.

What precisely was the name of the entrant?
Why did he not participate in the practice?

Is there a picture?

Thanks in advance !

I thought I had pictures of Patrick Nève in 1978 in Zolder but I can't find them anymore.
Anyway, here is a couple of pictures from 1977 during Friday's practices.



Julien

[Bondurand]

Originally posted by j-ickx-fan


I thought I had pictures of Patrick Nève in 1978 in Zolder but I can't find them anymore.
Anyway, here is a couple of pictures from 1977 during Friday's practices.



Julien

Merci !
Thanks a lot ! I hope you'll find them someday !

[j-ickx-fan]

I have more photos of Patrick Nève in Zolder in (edit : ) 1977 . (I wrote 1978 by mistake).
If you want them, just send me an e-mail (I don't check my PM very often ).

Julien

PS. I guess Pedro 917 should have some photos too because he was there at the same time as I was - both years. But at the time I didn't know him yet. If I'll see him on Friday at the Racing Show in Luxemburg I'll ask him.

[macoran]

find them pleeeeeeez and post them !!

[Pedro 917]

I have no pictures of Patrick Nève from 1978, sorry!

[d.emerson]

I will try to go to search in the attic, roofs of the house of my mother where I left all my old auto hebdo, I bought this magazine each week, therefore there must be well one photograph.

[Marc Ceulemans]

The picture of Nève with the 781 March was in Auto Hebdo Belgique.

[Bondurand]

Originally posted by Marc Ceulemans
The picture of Nève with the 781 March was in Auto Hebdo Belgique.

WOW ! We're near to the goal !

Anyone scanned it?

[Pedro 917]

Here's a clipping my brother found (could be from Auto Hebdo). It's not from Zolder but most probably from a press presentation:

[macoran]

pat on the back 4 yr brother !

[macoran]

Just printed the pic as well as the Musetti one.
Neglecting the obvious, mirrors and front brake scoops
the Musetti screen seems to be painted up higher, but
the front roll hoop looks lower, or the screen is higher.
Curvatures of the cowl near the headrest seem identical.
Side pods seem to be different ... aerodynamic fences ?
the front parts of the side pods seem to slope down whereas
the Neve car has curvier fronts to the pods.
As to the nose and the front ground clearance referred to by
simonlewis.....I've magnified out the front suspension.... the top
A arms seem to slant a bit more upwards on the Neve picture.

Could the Musetti car have had the suspension chocked up while
pushing it around ?...sems like the terrain around the track
and paddock wasn't all that great !

Even the ... brace inside the cowling ahead of the headrest
to the right of the guy in red's steering hand seems the same !

My "bible" David Hodges excellent A-Z mentions that indeed tank
capacity was limted as the AFX races were only 100 miles, and that
"plans" for WC events came to nothing.
Pity that Alan Henry in his book March only mentions that March built
some cars for British National series.

Apparantly 2 781s were built

Why do't men in red boiler suits get out of the way when
pics are taken ?

[jorism]

Originally posted by Allen Brown
The Monza winner became a 761B for 1977 and was then bought mid-season by Peterson for his museum and returned to 761 spec by March. Ronnie died before the museum project came to fruition and I can't recall where I last heard of the car. Because his main car had been 761/3 until shortly before Monza, I think there was an attempt to pass off 761/3 as the Monza winner. I think they may have tried "Peterson's famous March from Monza 1976" because it was his spare at that race. Nice try...

It's in fact Ronnie's old manager, Staffan Svenby who owns this car.

[Macca]

I've dug out my scrapbook for 1978, and although oldracingcars.com says only two 781s were built, there seem to be some visible differences in these pictures from Motoring News:


(issue 25/5/78)


(issue 1/6/78)


(issue 29/6/78)


(issue 3/8/78)

Edwards appears to be driving the same chassis in the 1st, 3rd & 4th pics (from the sidepod shape) but the Lees car in the 2nd pic looks different from the Allison one in the 4th pic, ie no sidepods, deeper windscreen, no forward braces on the rollover bar.

Anyone?

Paul M

[petefenelon]

The Geoff Lees car looks very much like the one-off 772P to me, apart from the nose...

[Bondurand]

Originally posted by Pedro 917
Here's a clipping my brother found (could be from Auto Hebdo). It's not from Zolder but most probably from a press presentation:

Thanks a lot !!!!!

It's interesting that the car was already red/white mid_may 78, as later with Musetti (in 79), while it changed color during some months under Edwards (April to end 78)

[seruga]

GRANDE PEDRO

[Macca]

Neve's car looks to be the same one as Geoff Lees' (same colour scheme) except for the sidepods - maybe these were added with pannier tanks to bring up the fuel capacity for a full GP?

The Edwards car seems to be a different one (781/1?) - smaller windscreen, long sidepods - that he drove all season but for Mallory in my 4th pic is said to be 781/2, the same car as Neve and Lees drove, on oldracingcars.com.

So it looks to me that there were three, not two - Edwards & Allison all season in the Aurora series in the Titbits/Mopar pair, and the Lees/Neve car.


Paul M

[simonlewisbooks]

Originally posted by Macca
Neve's car looks to be the same one as Geoff Lees' (same colour scheme) except for the sidepods - maybe these were added with pannier tanks to bring up the fuel capacity for a full GP?

The Edwards car seems to be a different one (781/1?) - smaller windscreen, long sidepods - that he drove all season but for Mallory in my 4th pic is said to be 781/2, the same car as Neve and Lees drove, on oldracingcars.com.

So it looks to me that there were three, not two - Edwards & Allison all season in the Aurora series in the Titbits/Mopar pair, and the Lees/Neve car.


Paul M

I wonder if the different sidepods on the Musetti car were a later effort to extract some ground-effect ? It was 1979 after all and that was the must-have technology of the day. They look a lot like the sidepods on the 793. It doesn't look as if three cars ever appeared in the same place at the same time so I think it's just differing versions of the bodywork thats makes it appear that way.

Simon Lewis

[Allen Brown]

Originally posted by Macca
So it looks to me that there were three, not two - Edwards & Allison all season in the Aurora series in the Titbits/Mopar pair, and the Lees/Neve car.

Autosport at the time was pretty clear on this. Just the two.

Allen

[Mallory Dan]

Allens correct as usual ! Only 2 made. First one Edwards had from AFX Round 3, second built up later, used first by Neve at the Belgian GP, then taken over by the RAM team for Allison.

At its first race, Oulton Park end of June, Edwards 'dinged' his, and took over the car Allison intended to use, Bruce had to take over the 751/75A/761 that he'd been using before this meet. They finished 1-2, Guy ahead. At the next race, Allison won a real thriller at Mallory in whichever 781 he then had.

[Allen Brown]

I agree with Dan that it wasn't immediately obvious who had which 781 from that point forward. I have a dim recollection that there was a difference in the rollhoops that made it pretty easy to sort out. You only need one of them to be pictured in each race report.

Or am I thinking of the Hesketh 308Es?

I know I used to really care about things like that back then and I've either gone to see the team or studied lots of photographs or something. I still do care of course, just not that much.

Allen

[simonlewisbooks]

I think the roll hoop on Edwards car in the side-by-side shot is taller.
In the shot of Edwards /Musetti /Evans at Thruxton the roll hoop looks taller than on the Lees car.... we'll be looking for rivetts to count shortly...

Simon Lewis

[Mallory Dan]

Originally posted by petefenelon
The Geoff Lees car looks very much like the one-off 772P to me, apart from the nose...

P, there were 2 'proper' 772Ps, plus Godfrey Crompton's car, termed a 772P on the hills in 1978, which definitely wasn't one of the '77 cars. And whats wrong with counting rivets anyway ?

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Mallory Dan


P, there were 2 'proper' 772Ps, plus Godfrey Crompton's car, termed a 772P on the hills in 1978, which definitely wasn't one of the '77 cars. And whats wrong with counting rivets anyway ?

Urk.... you're right re: 2 works cars. The naughty one within me does wonder, of course, whether the 772P being based on the 'old' narrow March F2/Atlantic tub means that assorted tired old cars reappeared as ersatz 772Ps with new bodywork and bits. Given that the history of the F1 cars isn't the clearest, I can only begin to boggle at how hard it must be to track down March F2 and F3 history!

[Allen Brown]

Originally posted by petefenelon
Given that the history of the F1 cars isn't the clearest, I can only begin to boggle at how hard it must be to track down March F2 and F3 history!

Funny you should mention that. Chris Townsend is up to his ears in such histories at the moment and it reminds me to ask those of you with archives of interesting bits of paper (Mr Fenelon, Mr Rear, Mr Lewis and many others) that everything and anything that may help us identify an old F2, F3, Atlantic or FSV would be most gratefully received.

If you're keeping up with Chris's Atlantic results on ORC, you'll see the amazing job he's doing identifying cars.

Allen

[macoran]

Checked Autosport Belgian GP report.....they do not list P.Neve as an entrant
in 1978 !! ??

[Allen Brown]

I have him down as "Did not take part in official practice" so that could be why.

[GIGLEUX]

I agree with Allen; in Autocourse (french edition) there is the following note:
" in preliminary tests Bernard de Dryver drove the Ensign N177 (MN06) and Patrick Nève the March 781/2.".

[Bondurand]

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
I agree with Allen; in Autocourse (french edition) there is the following note:
" in preliminary tests Bernard de Dryver drove the Ensign N177 (MN06) and Patrick Nève the March 781/2.".

THANX
Now it makes 2 pictures for me to find !

[Pedro 917]

I'm pretty sure I've already posted a picture of De Dryver in the B&O sponsored March, just don't know the subject of the thread but I guess that must have been the personal pictures from the track. I'll look it up tonight when I'm back from work.

[Pedro 917]

I've been in Zolder in 1978 on Friday and Saturday but can't recall seeing De Dryver or Nève so they most probably ran on Thursday.

[Bondurand]

Originally posted by Pedro 917
I'm pretty sure I've already posted a picture of De Dryver in the B&O sponsored March, just don't know the subject of the thread but I guess that must have been the personal pictures from the track. I'll look it up tonight when I'm back from work.

I've seen a March with B&O sponsoring but it seems to be from 1976 or 77

What I've never seen is the ensign of 78, that might have non-prequalified or did not appear at all... pre-qualification in 78 were not really officially recorded as part of the GP event, IIRC

[Allen Brown]

Like Neve, I have him down as "Did not take part in official practice". Did Bernie chuck them both out?

Allen