49 replies to this topic

[West3]

I came across this on eBay, of all places. Seems a ridiculous venue to sell such an artifact, if in fact it is genuine. The engraving looks to be of somewhat more recent vintage than than the rest of the piece. If authentic I might be tempted, but then it really does belong in a museum or similar. Opinions, besides the obvious caveat emptor?

http://cgi.ebay.com/...1QQcmdZViewItem

[ian senior]

Caveat emptor indeed. That engraving looks very dodgy - but who am I to know? Would a BRDC badge of the period have had such engraving, and in such a font/typeface (is that the correct term for engraved words?), on the reverse? I'm sure someone round here would be able to put us in the picture. Here's hoping. And I would have though that such a thing would already be in a museum somewhere.

My doubts may well be unfounded, but if it is a fake, that kind of thing really, really, pees me off.

[bill moffat]

Read the description of the item...I think Jimmy gave us a pretty good idea of his "potential"....

[ian senior]

And did he "often" drive inferior machinery? Sales pitch, perhaps, but not strictly the truth.

[2F-001]

"An unimportant F2 event"?
So, were all F2 races unimportant, or were some European Championship qualifying rounds less important than others?

[ian senior]

Graham Gauld might know something about this. I've taken the liberty of sending him an e-mail to seek his opinion. Sorry, but this is really bugging me.

[zoff2005]

My advice would be to go and have a look at it in Four Oaks, Sutton Coldfield ... and a chat to find out exactly how his father got it, and check the information he gives you. I agree the blurb sounds straight out of a Nigerian scam!

[Graham Gauld]

Mmmmmm . With a BRDC badge the initial and surname of the drive ris always etched on the front where the blank is on this badge. It is the first time I have ever seen one with a full name and address on the back.

[bill moffat]

..and is Stirling Moss really an avid collector of Clark memorobilia ???

[f1steveuk]

In all my dealings with Stirling, he's interested in artifacts, but has never struck me as a collector. He sold his library off, and at the last count had one steering wheel of his own, therefore I agree, wht would Stirling want it?? I mean if it were genuine, of course I'd want it, but............

[bill moffat]

Well if you don't want to sink a grand (minimum) into a car badge of doubtful provenance how about an eBay Graham Hill signature.

We currently have a German collector with no less than 6 Graham Hill 1939-1975 (sic) signatures of varying vintages up for grabs. All seem to have been signed by the, ahem, same blue ballpoint pen and represent wonderful value at less than 1/5th of the cost of Jimmy's car badge....

[Antoine Pilette]

I have my grand-father's BRDC badges and, as Graham said, the name is on the front "A. Pilette".

[D-Type]

Just a thought: does the badge belong to the BRDC or to the member? Some clubs retain ownership and you have to return it if you leave - or your executors do.

[KJJ]

Originally posted by bill moffat
We currently have a German collector with no less than 6 Graham Hill 1939-1975 (sic) signatures of varying vintages up for grabs. All seem to have been signed by the, ahem, same blue ballpoint pen and represent wonderful value at less than 1/5th of the cost of Jimmy's car badge....

It's worth checking out the german collector's other items for sale, some very interesting stuff.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by D-Type
Just a thought: does the badge belong to the BRDC or to the member? Some clubs retain ownership and you have to return it if you leave - or your executors do.

Now you mention it Duncan, I'm sure you're right. Members certainly aren't allowed to sell their badges, but the situation might be different for deceased members, I suppose

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by D-Type
Just a thought: does the badge belong to the BRDC or to the member? Some clubs retain ownership and you have to return it if you leave - or your executors do.

I believe in this case it's the club: although they do "escape". IIRC Ted Walker had Rodney Walkerley's for sale a while ago - I discussed it briefly with Ted and I think he said it should really have been returned.

[Doug Nye]

Strictly speaking the Club is the owner of the badges and it is made quite clear in the articles of membership that the BRDC owns these emblems, not the member. Good luck to would-be purchasers - though I'd doubt that the Club would pursue the matter - except in the case of REALLY important genuine badges, such as Jimmy's....

[Terry Walker]

I just had a look at the ebay item. So far exactly 0 bids.

[green-blood]

this was my favourite item....

Marlon Brando (1924-04) rare signed GODFATHER contract

[roger_valentine]

Completely OT question for the ebay experts - I thought it might be interesting to see what other items this seller had offered previously.

Clicking on 'read feedback comments' and then 'from buyers' gives a complete list of Item numbers, the top 8 of which (since 1st September 2005) are clickable. But, clicking on 'Items for sale' brings up only the current BRDC badge - changing the search criteria to 'completed listings' brings up nothing. (Yes, I have logged in to allow access to the 'completed listings' search).

So, why can't I see at least these 8 recent sales when searching 'completed listings'? And how can I see all his other items? Am I doing something wrong or is there a knack to searching ebay which I have not yet mastered?

[Terry Walker]

The auction is at fever pitch. O bids still.

[ian senior]

Originally posted by Terry Walker
The auction is at fever pitch. O bids still.

Anyone want to submit a joke bid of, say, 37p?

I notice that "correspondence form miscreants, scammers or or busibodies will be ignored". Yes, I bet it will.

[Rob Ryder]

Originally posted by roger_valentine
Completely OT question for the ebay experts - I thought it might be interesting to see what other items this seller had offered previously.

Latest items as seller...

CAMEL BLAZER UK SIZE 8
POWICK BRIDGE PAINTING
SCORPION REAR MOTORCYCLE PADDOCK STAND
PEUGEOT 205 BOOK
BIRMINGHAM CITY FC versus ASTON VILLA FC HISTORY BOOK
DIABLO ONE PIECE RACE LEATHERS

A real mixed bag.

[Jack-the-Lad]

Originally posted by ian senior




I notice that "correspondence form miscreants, scammers or or busibodies will be ignored". Yes, I bet it will.

No mention of mountbanks, though.

Jack

[West3]

I decided to become a busybody and inquire as to the provenance of the piece as well as the uhhh... "unusual" nature of the engraving. Got a response today:

Hi,
Thanks for your enquiry.
I'm no expert on automobile memorabilia and history. So, I'm forwarding my reply to another Ebayer with an identical query to your own.
Once again, thank you for your interest.
George

I received the following a short while later:

Hi,
Thank you for your enquiry.
From other enquirers I've learnt that members were given the choice of badge front anonymity or name/membership number. Clark obviously chose the former but security marked the reverse to render it unsaleable if gained illicitly. Canny Scot........!
Thanks for looking.
George

More likely a "canny" seller, as he has now successfully transferred the claim of authenticity to an anonymous party. Note there was no response regarding provenance. Not sure quite what to make of the "gained illicitly" statement and I don't think I want to bother pursuing it either.

I've purchased some amazing motorsport items via eBay in the past, but this certainly won't be one of them!

[Gary C]

this HAS to be a fake

[philippe charuest]

even if it was the real thing. i dont understand that memorabilia thing. if its a whole car ok . but helmet gloves, pin . autograph or any signed thing who cares. not me . idolatry is not my cup of tea

[275 GTB-4]

and now for something completely different....

I spotted an old postcard at work the other day with an extremely young looking Jim Clark in a green and gold Lotus at what could be Indy. The card was from the museum at Duns in Scotland.

Fantastic shot of Jim and very attractive car .....maybe I should try and scan it sometime

[Terry Walker]

As of now, one bid of £999 exactly. Curioser and curioser.

[f1steveuk]

If anything is going to happen, it will be the last hour, and more likely the last 15 minutes. If it is a fake, why ruin a good badge by applying engraving it never had. Does make you wonder.

[Hieronymus]

Originally posted by Jack-the-Lad


No mention of mountbanks, though.

Jack

What on earth is a "mountbank"?

[bill moffat]

..well if you spell it the classical way as "mountebank" it refers to a flamboyant deceiver.

If this item was proved to be genuine how ironic it is that Jimmy's attempt at making it valueless (the rear engraving) is now the very reason for its value....

[f1steveuk]

Has anyone tried to contact Duns to ask it they are actually interested? or if they think it's the real thing?

[Hieronymus]

Thanks. Something new for my vocabulary...I doubt if people with English as mother tongue, here in South Africa, knows this word. First time I've seen it, but then I plea dumb and stupid as non-English speaker...

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Terry Walker
As of now, one bid of £999 exactly. Curioser and curioser.

Opening bid - bidder may have gone in higher, but it won't show until someone else bids (say) £1100. If the opening bidder has gone higher then the second will get an outbid message and the price will rise to his bid plus the next increment (I think it's + £25 at that level, but I'm open to correction: I've never bought anything that expensive on eBay).

Marius: mountebank is by no means a word in everyday currency In fact I don't think I've ever heard it used except in "Blackadder" - IIRC Dr Johnson (Robbie Coltrane) uses it while upbraiding Blackadder in the dictionary episode.

[Vitesse2]

Hmmm .... just a thought. Though I might be wrong.

If this is Jim's badge, then presumably it would have adorned his personal Elan? On Jim's death (or was it before?), that car passed to Jabby Crombac.

I leave you draw your own conclusions .....

[Jack-the-Lad]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bill moffat
[B]..well if you spell it the classical way as "mountebank" it refers to a flamboyant deceiver.

Hi, Bill, and thanks for the spelling correction!
Jack

[West3]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Hmmm .... just a thought. Though I might be wrong.

If this is Jim's badge, then presumably it would have adorned his personal Elan? On Jim's death (or was it before?), that car passed to Jabby Crombac.

I leave you draw your own conclusions .....

I believe Jim Clark owned three Elans over the years. The one formerly owned by Jabby Crombac was auctioned late last year to Peter Windsor, so I don't think there is any connection between Jabby Crombac's sad passing and this auction, if I get your drift.

Besides, where would one mount this badge on an Elan???

[Ted Walker]

I have never had or sold a BRDC badge I think there is some confusion somewhere. I think that the "clark badge". has been removed from E Bay.As Graham said they always have the members name on the front,unless it has been ground off for selling reasons.

[bill moffat]

Ted ..the BRDC badge continues to be touted on eBay and has attracted over 500 viewers.

I'm torn between this item and the genuine Jim Clarke (sic) signed book...altho' £17.49 postage (for the badge) seems a bit steep ;)

[Vitesse2]

Okay, make that one of Jimmy's Elans - and I'm sure it must have been possible to get a badge bar for Elans: I've seen them on just about every 60s sports car. The point I was trying to make was that one person who could surely have authenticated (or otherwise) the engraving on the badge would be Jabby. Graham Gauld is another and I think I detect an air of doubt in his post above ....

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4
and now for something completely different....

I spotted an old postcard at work the other day with an extremely young looking Jim Clark in a green and gold Lotus at what could be Indy. The card was from the museum at Duns in Scotland.

Fantastic shot of Jim and very attractive car .....maybe I should try and scan it sometime

Jim Clark
Winner of the 1965 Indianapolis 500 mile race
(Courtesy of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway)
This Postcard from the Jim Clark room, Duns
Tel: (0361) 83960/82600
A Berwickshire District Council Museum

(unfortunately, the Royal Mail berricksheer post mark has been obliterated )

[West3]

This whole auction situation had bothered me to the point of contacting the BRDC via their web site, thinking they might appreciate being made aware of what was happening as well as possibly wanting to reclaim their property. Here is the response I just received:

Dear Will,

Thank you for this information but we were aware of it. You are right in thinking that it is BRDC property and we have taken appropriate action to have it returned.

Kind regards

Roger

So, perhaps this whole sordid affair will soon come to a conclusion...

However, as there always seems to be someone else trying to cash in on a legend, I offer you my latest eBay discovery:

http://cgi.ebay.com/...1QQcmdZViewItem

Funny, I don't seem to recall hearing much about JC's exploits driving Modifieds and Hobby Stocks!

[West3]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Okay, make that one of Jimmy's Elans - and I'm sure it must have been possible to get a badge bar for Elans: I've seen them on just about every 60s sports car. The point I was trying to make was that one person who could surely have authenticated (or otherwise) the engraving on the badge would be Jabby. Graham Gauld is another and I think I detect an air of doubt in his post above ....

Point well taken. Sorry but I'm a little slow on the uptake occasionally, errr...make that frequently!

[bill moffat]

Believe me, I've owned a couple of baby Elans and a badge bar would be an absolute no-no. I suppose you could tack something onto the under-bumper grille but as this doubles as your front number plate this is also doomed to failure.

I used my drop head Elan as a rapid response car at times, being grp my emergency beacon would not stick to the bodywork, so a passenger would be employed to hold it at windscreen height..

[Graham Gauld]

Vitesse: I think you could assume that. To be honest I do not recall Jim ever having any badge on his car save in the early days before he would have qualified for BRDC membership and he had, I think, the Berwick and District Motor Club badge and the Young Farmers Club badge on his Sunbeam Talbot.
I am glad to see that Roger has things in hand at the BRDC.
There is absolutely no doubt that this is a proper BRDC car badge but I do not like the look of the buffed area on the front where the name would be. And as I said before, I have never known of anyone to write their name and address on the back of a BRDC badge and it is certainly not the sort of thing Jim Clark would do as he tried very hard to keep a very low profile.

As for the other American badge shown I never saw that amongst his bits and pieces and it would appear to indicate that you had to own a car in order to be registered. I think the only American car Jim ever "owned" was the car given to him by Ford after winning Indianapolis as they felt the GM or Chevrolet he had officially won did not fit in with Ford's marketing plans and Jim sold that car. He also occasionally borrowed Colin Chapman's Galaxie.

Also almost every item that Jim had was gathered together by the family and shared out between them. As a very close family they were happy to loan the majority of the items in the Jim Clark Room but I would be very surprised indeed if they ever gave away or sold anything to anyone outside the family or close friends.

[bill moffat]

Interesting. This eBay item has just ended with a typical last-minute bidding war. So "kilmany" walks away with a genuine Jim Clark BRDC badge (he hopes) and has enough change out of £2,000 to buy a modest meal for two.

For his sake (and his previous "form" suggests that he is an avid Clark collector rather than a speculator) I do hope that a) this badge is genuine and b) the BRDC heavies are not knocking on his door in the morning...

[West3]

Yes, very interesting. In prior dealings with kilmany3436, I understand him to be closely related to Clark and has amassed a gigantic collection of Clark mementos, starting as far back as the 60's. Perhaps it is genuine after all, or maybe he spent a large pile of cash just to remove it from the public market...

He also has this web site:

http://www.lastchancegarage.com/

[Doug Nye]

I wonder if he studies this Forum? If he doesn't, and this thread is now introduced to him, he might just choke over his cornflakes...

DCN

[ensign14]

Originally posted by zoff2005
My advice would be to go and have a look at it in Four Oaks, Sutton Coldfield ... and a chat to find out exactly how his father got it, and check the information he gives you. I agree the blurb sounds straight out of a Nigerian scam!

Dang, I've only just picked up on this, the chap must live very very close to me...