85 replies to this topic

[bira]

Autosport magazine has published today its "Top 50" drivers of 2005, and the top 10 drivers are:

 1.  Sebastien Loeb		   WRC	 Champion

 2.  Fernando Alonso		  F1	  Champion

 3.  Kimi Raikkonen		   F1	  2nd

 4.  Dan Wheldon			  IRL	 Champion

 5.  Michael Schumacher	   F1	  3rd

 6.  Juan Pablo Montoya	   F1	  4th

 7.  Jenson Button			F1	  9th

 8.  Petter Solberg		   WRC	 2nd

 9.  Andy Priaulx			 WTCC	Champion

10.  Gary Paffett			 DTM	 Champion

The list, published at the end of every year, is decided by the magazine based on performance during the season, although not just how many wins. Entertainment value, career momentum and potential, as well as the level of the series they are in - all these are factored in.

I thought I'd start a debate off here by saying it's outrageous that Jenson Button is on this list at all, and rather insulting he's in the top 10.

That said, I rather liked it that Loeb was above Alonso. I can't think of someone this year who was more deserving of recognition and awe.

Anyway, there you go. Let the debate begin

[330R]

Originally posted by bira
The list, published at the end of every year, is decided by the magazine based on performance during the season, although not just how many wins. Entertainment value, career momentum and potential, as well as the level of the series they are in - all these are factored in.

I thought I'd start a debate off here by saying it's outrageous that Jenson Button is on this list at all, and rather insulting he's in the top 10.

I think your first paragraph explains almost perfectly why it's not outrageous for Button to be on the list.

Oh and I'd probably reverse Kimi and Fred's positions, too.

[Chubby_Deuce]

Uh. Button had a very ordinary year.

I like the list, save for the Button and maybe the placement of Wheldon.

[Racer Joe]

Originally posted by bira
I thought I'd start a debate off here by saying it's outrageous that Jenson Button is on this list at all, and rather insulting he's in the top 10.

Did you tell them?

Like I said when they (or was it F1 Racing) did the same thing last year, the idea is complete bollocks and utter unworthy of my 10 minutes of time. There goes 30 seconds posting this post.

[santori]

A rally driver at number one!

Yes, Jenson shouldn't be there (not that he had a bad year, just not a top ten year). And I'm surprised that Bourdais and Gronholm aren't.

But right now I'm just happy that Loeb and the WRC have been given the recognition they deserve
(insert dancing emoticon here). WOOOT!

[Bravo]

Originally posted by bira
That said, I rather liked it that Loeb was above Alonso. I can't think of someone this year who was more deserving of recognition and awe.

May be Kimi Raikonen... (joking)
Seriously, reading that I guess you are assuming Loeb had the same advantage than Alonso given both racing materials. I'm not sure about that.
I'm not saying Loeb doesn't deserve, because I believe he is an "all time" talent (in rally racing) but if we could prove that Seb was driving in such adventageous conditions what would we say?

[santori]

Originally posted by santori
A rally driver at number one!

Yes, Jenson shouldn't be there (not that he had a bad year, just not a top ten year). And I'm surprised that Bourdais and Gronholm aren't.

But right now I'm just happy that Loeb and the WRC have been given the recognition they deserve
(insert dancing emoticon here). WOOOT!

Not that such lists mean anything much, but still.

[zac510]

In what position did the highest place GP2 driver come?

[Speed_A]

Autosport journalists have shown more sense than its readers. I like the list, except the JB part ;)

[BRG]

Originally posted by bira
I thought I'd start a debate off here by saying it's outrageous that Jenson Button is on this list at all, and rather insulting he's in the top 10.

I agree. And to put him ahead of Priaulx and Paffett who actually won races as well as championships is really insulting. And neither of them had their cars declared illegal either.

[bira]

Originally posted by zac510
In what position did the highest place GP2 driver come?

Nico Rosberg is 15th

[ensign14]

Originally posted by bira
That said, I rather liked it that Loeb was above Alonso. I can't think of someone this year who was more deserving of recognition and awe.

A brave choice and one that is bound to spark debate. I am wondering whether Loeb is the best rally driver ever. Even the likes of Mikkola in their pomp were never as dominant.

I would not have Wheldon in 4th. Whenever IRL drivers have stepped outside the formula they've been shown up pretty badly. Paffett for winning the DTM probably deserves the position more, he beat Hakkinen et al, maybe even more so than World Champ Priaulx. Wheldon has beaten a bunch of A1GP middlemen...it's more of a reflection of the ovalcentricity of the IRL than on Wheldon's undoubted skills tho'.

Maybe contradicting the IRL stance, but why is Tony Stewart not there? He's a dominant champ in the biggest series in the US, beating the best American drivers, playing the points system perfectly but with 5 wins in 43 car fields whilst driving with a conservative state of mind. I'd certainly sneak him ahead of Solberg and would not consider him any less than Danilo Wheldoni. Greg Biffle should be a few places lower. And Stewart is never anything less than entertaining; ditto Carl Edwards.

[Buttoneer]

Originally posted by BRG
I agree. And to put him ahead of Priaulx and Paffett who actually won races as well as championships is really insulting. And neither of them had their cars declared illegal either.

I agree that Button shouldn't have made the top ten, much as Schumacher and Montoya should not have made the top ten, but the legality of the car is irrelevent to his ability as a driver.

F1 has an unhealthy weighting in that list in terms of numbers IMO when there are so many other good drivers in other series who have not been recognised here. Nico Rosberg at 15? Pah!

[yosssi]

Wheldon ? lol and bourdais

[kayemod]

A really great list....

The guy in 50th position only ran a single race all year. I know many fans enjoyed the GP Masters, but the race looked somewhat staged to me, a bunch of balding overweight ex-drivers who weren't going to take too many chances, why should they indeed, and of course being less out of condition than most of the others, he won it. If you haven't guessed already, the '50th best driver in the world' is Nigel Mansell.

Nigel Mansell, '50th best driver in the world 2005'. I bet Nige will be dining out on that for a while.

[chak]

i betcha this is going to turn into another "influence of the British Media" thread again.

But seriously though, Button in this year's Top Ten is a bit reaching. I would have rated Takume higher if "entertainment value" was taken highly into account. I mean when Schumy slapped him about... that was fantastic entertainment!

Other than that, no problems. I don't follow WRC, but I'll assume they had a good reason for pipping him over Alonso. End of the day, it's just a subjective list. No more, no less.

[kayemod]

Originally posted by ensign14
Maybe contradicting the IRL stance, but why is Tony Stewart not there? He's a dominant champ in the biggest series in the US, beating the best American drivers, playing the points system perfectly but with 5 wins in 43 car fields whilst driving with a conservative state of mind. I'd certainly sneak him ahead of Solberg and would not consider him any less than Danilo Wheldoni. Greg Biffle should be a few places lower. And Stewart is never anything less than entertaining; ditto Carl Edwards.

Tony Stewart was in there at 19.

Put them out of their misery Bira, post the full 50 for the benefit of Autosport non-subscribers.

[boostpressure]

If what everyone has said is true so far, and that top 10 is spot on, then that list is a load of utter crap, end of story.

Schumacher and Montoya, let alone Button, should be nowhere near the top 10. Rosberg at 15? that is just wrong IMO.

[red stick]

Originally posted by ensign14
Greg Biffle should be a few places lower. And Stewart is never anything less than entertaining; ditto Carl Edwards.

Yeah, if performance, entertainment value, career momentum and potential are key, Edwards should be highly placed.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by kayemod


Tony Stewart was in there at 19.

Put them out of their misery Bira, post the full 50 for the benefit of Autosport non-subscribers.

actually, I am one, but I haven't looked at the top 50 yet...

I think that's too low for TS.

[JesseFriz]

I like Button and all, but this was not a top ten year for him.. Tony Stewart 19th? jeezz...

[Ross Stonefeld]

Schumacher's drive at Imola to try to get past Alonso (and vice versa) is double Wheldon's entire season.

[wj_gibson]

Bourdais ought to have been in there. I presume he was placed around 11th or 12th.

[Chubby_Deuce]

Why can't I find the list?

[alexcason]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Schumacher's drive at Imola to try to get past Alonso (and vice versa) is double Wheldon's entire season.

The fact is that he failed to get past, even with a car at least 1 second per lap faster.

[Speed_A]

Originally posted by alexcason


The fact is that he failed to get past, even with a car at least 1 second per lap faster.

The fact is that you can count overall passes in Imola in the past few years on the fingers of the one hand.

[Chubby_Deuce]

Originally posted by alexcason


The fact is that he failed to get past, even with a car at least 1 second per lap faster.

Eh? This would be a fun argument.

[Tubbs]

Originally posted by Speed_A
The fact is that you can count overall passes in Imola in the past few years on the fingers of the one hand.

And among those are passes made by drivers with smaller performance gap to his rival than what MS had against FA.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Well in that case MS's pass on Button at Imola, and Button driving himself into a wall in Canada, should remove him from the list entirely.

[Speed_A]

Originally posted by Tubbs


And among those are passes made by drivers with smaller performance gap to his rival than what MS had against FA.

Who and when, if the leading driver didn't commit a mistake (FA didn't)?

[Tubbs]

It's funny why so many make so big deal about MS @ Imola. We should remember what put him in that position in the first place - his big mistake at qualifying. If that doesn't count for anything we should also applaud Kimi's fearless drive at the Nurburgring where he hammered incredibly fast laps with that wounded car, it does not matter how the car was wounded in the first place.

[Speed_A]

Originally posted by Tubbs
It's funny why so many make so big deal about MS @ Imola. We should remember what put him in that position in the first place - his big mistake at qualifying. If that doesn't count for anything we should also applaud Kimi's fearless drive at the Nurburgring where he hammered incredibly fast laps with that wounded car, it does not matter how the car was wounded in the first place.

Incredibly fast laps? FA was catching him by 1.5-2 secs per lap. The car was not wounded by itself but the tyre was flatspotted. The ensuing vibrations then caused sudden breakup of front suspension.

Noone is denying that MS made mistake in qualifying and that it costed him a race win. But he drove a brilliant race and scored the highest possible place. At the Nürburgring, KR had the fastest car and the lead from the start, made a mistake and paid for it with eventual retirement. I see not a single thing in common here.

[armonico]

just for curiosity, how many times before was the WRC champion placed at the top of the list instead of the F1 champion in the Autosprt Top 50?

About Button being placed 7th
Turkey was the only race when he had a car capable to fight in performance with Renault and maybe being closed to McLaren but he wasted his chance when he spun off during his qualifying. Go fugure!

About M Schumacher and Montoya being 5th and 6th, perhaps it was due solely to the entertainment value provide this season but then, where is Sato?

[Bravo]

Originally posted by armonico
just for curiosity, how many times before was the WRC champion placed at the top of the list instead of the F1 champion in the Autosprt Top 50?

Can anyone anwer this question?

[TailG]

Loeb had even bigger car advantage than Alonso, the tires alone made him much faster than any of the contenders and Citroen's bulletproof reliability also helped a lot.

[MrSlow]

Outrageous that Button is on the list but ok that Schumi is there, as #5? Thell me what he did this season apart from ramming people?

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Bravo
Can anyone anwer this question?

It's a new thing, I don't remember how may times it's been done.

[Ricardo F1]

Button.

But hey, at least they put Alonso above Raikonnen, now the FA brigade can STFU.

[MrSlow]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
But hey, at least they put Alonso above Raikonnen, now the FA brigade can STFU.

No, they can not, this time ANOTHER guy is ahead of Alonso

[armonico]

Originally posted by MrSlow

No, they can not, this time ANOTHER guy is ahead of Alonso

exactly...

Autosport (and F1 British Press in general) knows how to upset us, doesn't it? First, it was the votes of fans (although they didn't provide any fugures at all, just the "edged" thing) and this time the votes of journos and experts (who placed Alonso in front of Kimi but behind Loeb)


Some debate is not going to cause any harm, isn't it?

[Fortymark]

Why are Schumacher and Button ahead of Gary Paffet?

[IMHO]

History and Potential.

[IMHO]

Where's Lewis Hamilton?

[lukywill]

not evaluating alonso as number one just shows how hard it is to be one of the best magazines in this modern times. :]

[ivanalesi]

Originally posted by TailG
Loeb had even bigger car advantage than Alonso, the tires alone made him much faster than any of the contenders and Citroen's bulletproof reliability also helped a lot.

Still he won Sweden! This was totally outstanding! I'm more Colin, Markko fan, but I have to admit that his pace on tarmac, they way he handled the Xsara was awesome

[John B]

Originally posted by ensign14
actually, I am one, but I haven't looked at the top 50 yet...

I think that's too low for TS.

Also two of Stewart's wins were on road courses, which he has dominated in recent years, and two of the others were at high profile races (Indianapolis, Daytona in July).

The Button and Mansell things must be an attempt to generate attention.

[mikedeering]

The Mansell ranking is tongue in cheek. The Button ranking is just plain wrong. Just think how high he would rank if next season he finishes higher than 9th in the WDC.

[kayemod]

Originally posted by IMHO
Where's Lewis Hamilton?

24

[Jodum5]

I guess the reason Williams doesnt reate Bourdais is cause Autosport doesn't either.

I would switch Button with the frenchie

[prty]

Sorry to get a little offtopic, but seeing just a moment of the FIA season review completely changed my opinion about Button. I liked the guy, he looked honest and nice in the interviews, etc. But god, going for explanations towards a team member after Malaysia, and then laughing in his face and going away all angry like a little spoilt brat is so pffff.
Apologizes, but had to say it