28 replies to this topic

[Barry Boor]

According to a certain Chinese author, Dong Yen, Lotus 18 chassis 373, was a Team car in 1960, then went to Seidel in 1961 and thence on to Kuhnke in 1962, who fitted a Borgward engine.

However, looking at the non-championship race details on Darren's superb site, the car is shown as being driven by Gunther Seifert at the Mediterranean Grand Prix of 1962, with a B.R.M engine.

Where is the error? Could the B.R.M be a misprint for B.K.L?

As an aside, it was 'written off' by Ernst Maring in Denmark in 1963 but, according to Dong, may have been in Holland in 1978 (when Theme Lotus was written.)

Anyone got any info about this chassis now?

[Tim Murray]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
However, looking at the non-championship race details on Darren's superb site, the car is shown as being driven by Gunther Seifert at the Mediterranean Grand Prix of 1962, with a B.R.M engine.

The relevant Sheldon 'Black Book' lists the car as entered for this race by Autosport Team Wolfgang Seidel (driver: Seifert) and fitted with a Climax engine. The other Seidel car (Lotus 24 chassis 946) had a BRM engine.

[Doug Nye]

Barry - BRM engine in a Lotus 18? Hardly...

Wun Hung Lo - pp Dong Yen

[Barry Boor]

Well I did wonder about that, so where did Darren's info come from?

[Ray Bell]

An overly tired transcriber working late into the night?

Does Dong Yen do house calls in the manner of Dong Yu?

[David Beard]

http://www.iwr.uni-h...pants/ndyen.htm

I've E mailed him and he says he knows nothing about Lotus 18s...

[Barry Boor]

Whoops! Apologies for error in first post.

Written off at Karlskoga, which is Sweden not Denmark.

Sorry!

[Charles Helps]

Both Darren Galpin (on his website) and Doug Nye (in Theme Lotus pub. 1978) agree that Gunther Seifert had 373 with the Climax engine at Oulton Park for the Gold Cup on 1st September 1962 a couple of weeks after the Mediterranean GP.

Is there a finger trouble subtext here?

[Charles Helps]

I wonder when Kunkhe bought the 18 and fitted the Borgward engine?

In this thread The 1964 GP Season and RVM Roger Clark has given us some notes from Autosport on Feb 7th:
"Feb 7
...
Team Lotus to use new cars for 1964 Type 25B
Revson Racing (America) formed, to race Tim Parnell’s Lotus 24
Kuhnke Racing formed to contest F1 with Lotus 18 and 24. Borgward engines purchased from bankrupt company .
...
Feb 28
Jim Clark tests 25B at Goodwood
Gunther Seifert to drive Lotus-Borgward for Kurt Kuhnke in F1

No, that's just confused me further as we were talking about Seifert racing Kunkhe's 18 in 1962

[Tomas Karlsson]

Kuhnke's two Lotus 18 for himself and Maring had Borgward engines when they raced at Karlskoga in 1963.

I wonder if it really was "written off" at Karlskoga. Maring ran into Gregory on the slowing-down lap(Gregory was slowing down and Maring wasn't) and landed on top of Gregory. Dosn't sound like a write-off...

[J Oakley]

Lotus 18 373 started life as a Team Lotus car and was driven by Surtees, Clark and Ireland. The car originally ran with a Climax FPF until 1963 when Kurt Kunke bought it and lightly converted it into a BKL Borgward. I believe that the car was entered into three races by him but only made it to the Solitude GP (28-07-63) and the Kannonloppet (11-08-63). It retired in both.

Kuhnke also acquired two other Lotus 18's. Chassis number 914 and 919 with chassis 919 being a Lotus 18/21 from new. He fitted cars both with Borgward engines. Chassis 919 was the most successful of the three BKL cars in the 1.5 F1 formula with a 100% finishing record. However, it did only enter one race where it came tenth! Most of the time the BKL's either did not start or did not finish.

BKL and BRM engines - I think not.

[David Beard]

Originally posted by J Oakley
Lotus 18 373 started life as a Team Lotus car and was driven by Surtees, Clark and Ireland. The car originally ran with a Climax FPF until 1963 when Kurt Kunke bought it and lightly converted it into a BKL Borgward. I believe that the car was entered into three races by him but only made it to the Solitude GP (28-07-63) and the Kannonloppet (11-08-63). It retired in both.

Kuhnke also acquired two other Lotus 18's. Chassis number 914 and 919 with chassis 919 being a Lotus 18/21 from new. He fitted cars both with Borgward engines. Chassis 919 was the most successful of the three BKL cars in the 1.5 F1 formula with a 100% finishing record. However, it did only enter one race where it came tenth! Most of the time the BKL's either did not start or did not finish.

BKL and BRM engines - I think not.

Good to see you here John. Thanks for the info.

What is all this BKL stuff then? Were enough mods made to the chassis to justify it being called anything other than a Lotus?

[J Oakley]

Hi David, good to hear from you,

No need to read too much into the BKL Lotus bit. All it stands for is Borgward Kuhnke Lotus. The cars were all just lightly modified Lotus 18's or, in the case of 919, Lotus 18/21's. Apart from the engine change there was very little that was different from the basic car. Even the queerboxes were retained. In the case of 919 the 18/21 front body section remained but the engine cover was modified to a more squareish flat top layout. This general lack of development explains why they were hoplesssly outclassed in F1 during 1962 and 1963. Most other Lotus 18's were begining new carerrs as club racers by then.

On a slightly different note. The issue of cars being written off in period. This often happened when private entrants realised that repairs may well exceed the value of the cars. Most professional teams probably found it more efective to build a new frame, after all, they were trying to win races and championship points. It is only in recent years when historic car values have soared that it has become worthwhile to 'restore' them.

John Oakley
Secretary and Historian, Historic Lotus Club.

[Ray Bell]

Nice of you to join in, John...

Would you like some colour pics from this era taken in the pits at Warwick Farm?

[ry6]

Is this perhaps the car driven by Wolfgang von Trips in the 1960 December South African Grand Prix and then in a race at Roy Hesketh Circuit, Pietermaritzburg by Tony Maggs in Jan or early February 1961?

If so there was a photo of it in one of the "original" issues of Classic Car Africa.

[J Oakley]

Hello Ray,

Warwick farm pictures - excellent! I have 373 recorded as doing Ardmore and Christchurch during the 1961 Tasman series but have found confusion regarding the other races. The identities of some of the Lotus Tasman cars seems muddled, so if you can throw any light on them that would be perfect.

[Doug Nye]

On Team 18s in general: this is just a quick copy and paste from gen I sent recently to somebody else on this subject -


I haven't got Team Lotus records for 1960 to any useful extent, but for 1960-61 the works Lotus 18s used in InterContinental, Tasman and F1 racing were recorded are as follows. I did NOT have these records when I compiled 'Theme Lotus", way back when:

19-11-60 US GP, Riverside
Chassis 371 - engine 1178 - Clark
Chassis 372 - engine 1183 - Ireland
Chassis 373 - engine 1152 - Surtees NO REMARKS IN RELEVANT COLUMN

2-11-60 Brands Hatch
Chassis 374 - engine 1127 - car tested with anti-dive suspension

7-11-60 SILVERSTONE
CHASSIS 374 - ENGINE 1127 - CLARK/ALLISON - "Anti-dive front susp. Rear brakes hot. G/box temp 90..."

1-6-61 Brands Hatch
Chassis 371 - engine 1209 - Trev Taylor - "Rain - ice forming in intakes"

3-6-61 Brands Hatch race
Chassis 371 - engine 1209 - Taylor - "Max rpm 8,000 - fuel full tanks less 2 galls - 2 galls remained - cockpit & fuel tanks hot"

25-3-61 Snetterton
371 - eng. 1152 - Ireland - "Sheared output shaft"
374 - eng. 1132 - Clark - "Carbuetion bad"

8-7-61 Silverstone
371 - eng. 1221 - Ireland - ICF race
372 - eng. 1168 - Clark

7-4-61 - Brussels
Chassis 371 - eng. 1132 - no detail
Chassis 374 - eng. 1127 - "26 laps - Used 5 1/4 galls fuel" NO DRIVER SPECIFIED

31-1-61 - GOODWOOD
374 - eng. 1127 - "40 laps test using special g/box oil - Oil level at 8" in tank - gearbox drain plug fell out" - NO DRIVER SPECIFIED

20-8-61 Karlskoga, Sweden
371 - eng. 1209 - no comments

3-4-61 - Pau
371 - eng. 1127 - Clark - "(Pau Meeting)"
374 - eng. 1132 - Taylor - NO COMMENTS

NZ GP, Ardmore, Auckland
372 - eng. 1183 - Ireland
373 - eng. 1152 Surtees
371 - eng. 1178/68 - Clark

Lady Wigram Trophy, Christchurch, NZ - 371 driven by Clark with 2 1/2-litre Climax FPF engine number 1178/68 - "track flooded - rad blanked 2 strips"

Wigram - 373 driven by Surtees with 2 1/2-litre Climax FPF engine number 1152 - ditto in remarks column.

Levin, NZ - 371 driven by Clark with same engine - "used only1st, 2nd, 3rd gears"
Levin - 373 driven by Surtees with same engine.

Warwick Farm, Australia - 372 driven by Ireland with engine 1183 - "Extremely hot".

Aintree '200' 1961 - chassis 371 - eng. 1132 - "5th not used"
Aintree - 372 eng. 1127 - "5th not used"
Aintree - 374 - eng. 1123 - "5th not used" - NO DRIVERS LISTED FOR THESE 18s

This is what the contemporary chassis logs round-up sheets tell us.

Dong

:

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by J Oakley
Hello Ray,

Warwick farm pictures - excellent! I have 373 recorded as doing Ardmore and Christchurch during the 1961 Tasman series but have found confusion regarding the other races. The identities of some of the Lotus Tasman cars seems muddled, so if you can throw any light on them that would be perfect.

I can do this... however, there is little about them that will help with identification.

By the way, John, you'll find that around here most realise that the 'Tasman Cup' series didn't begin until 1964. And the interest some show in things that interest you might become clearer to you if you look at this thread about the UDT (and other) Lotus 19s.

[J Oakley]

Hi Ray,

Interesting comments. I understand that the Tasman Formula was introduced in 1963 (I have two 'Tasman' cars from that period) but I guess that in the UK we use ''Tasman' as a generic term. Certainly in the excellent book, 'Theme Lotus', Doug Nye starts his Tasman record in 1960. I also have some New Zealand literature that does the same. Maybe with the passing of time we have started to include the earlier years as Tasman years. What do you think?

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by J Oakley
I understand that the Tasman Formula was introduced in 1963 (I have two 'Tasman' cars from that period)

Announced in 1963. First race January 1964.
If the cars you refer to raced in 1963 they ain't Tasman cars

I guess that in the UK we use ''Tasman' as a generic term

...a trend which people such as Ray and I are trying strenuoulsy to halt

Originally posted by J Oakley
I also have some New Zealand literature that does the same

I'm very surprised to hear that. I bet it's not from period, though.

[Rob29]

Originally posted by J Oakley
Hi Ray,

Interesting comments. I understand that the Tasman Formula was introduced in 1963 (I have two 'Tasman' cars from that period) but I guess that in the UK we use ''Tasman' as a generic term. Certainly in the excellent book, 'Theme Lotus', Doug Nye starts his Tasman record in 1960. I also have some New Zealand literature that does the same. Maybe with the passing of time we have started to include the earlier years as Tasman years. What do you think?

Interesting. The Tasman FORMULA and official championship started in 1964.International race series Aus/NZ started in 1961-I remember keeping my own unofficial 'championship' table.Cars were mostly ex F1 so would be better described as such? Never did see the point of the Tasman Formula. Meant that when F1 went to 3 litres,they had to go to the trouble of making 2.5 litre Cosworth DFVs

[Ray Bell]

It might have helped if you'd been here, Rob...

We had the explanations published in newspaper columns and magazines and could see the logic. For a start, it was announced over a year (or was it two?) before the 3-litre F1 was announced, so it's really an issue of why 2.5 was settled upon for here.

We had a bunch of 2.5 cars at the time, here and NZ, and a sprinkling of 2.7 cars which could become 2.5 cars without much pain. There were still some 2.5 Climaxes lying idle in England for use by visitors and Repco had bought the patterns from Coventry-Climax (or at least were about to) to go on producing more.

At the time there was no real sign of a more useful engine for such a series.

Look at the reality of it... eight races in nine weekends, with some significant travel between each race. You needed an economical available and reliable engine to handle that, and the FPF was very much that engine.

So from the point of view of economics, which was surely the main factor, the 2.5-litre formula just had to be the one. The fact that they were still going to be the fastest road racing cars in the world at that time didn't hurt either.

[David McKinney]

Following from Ray's explanation, the proposed 3-litre F1 was considered for the new Tasman Championship, but rejected on the grounds that it would be too expensive for the home-based teams and would give the visitors even more of an advantage than they would have anyway

[David Beard]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
As an aside, it was 'written off' by Ernst Maring in Denmark in 1963 but, according to Dong, may have been in Holland in 1978 (when Theme Lotus was written.)

Anyone got any info about this chassis now?

According to Motor Sport, November 2005 issue, it's the car that Michael Schryver now owns and races so successfully...

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by J Oakley
Hello Ray,

Warwick farm pictures - excellent! I have 373 recorded as doing Ardmore and Christchurch during the 1961 Tasman series but have found confusion regarding the other races. The identities of some of the Lotus Tasman cars seems muddled, so if you can throw any light on them that would be perfect.

These pictures are now available again...

They were stored on a hard drive that died on me last year. I finally received an identical hard drive two days ago (having bought it from a computer shop in Texas on ebay...) and switched the controller card over, releasing at last all the pictures from their captivity.

Lotus 18 photos are mostly suspension and other detail shots... they were taken by Bob Britton at Warwick Farm, where the works and Rob Walker cars were his main subjects. There are also some FJr 18 pics. There are almost 50 pictures in all.

Here's a couple of samples:













There are lots more...

[Allen Brown]

Wow! Great pictures Ray. A restorer's gold mine.

Allen

[Ray Bell]

That's very close to the reason they were taken, Allen...

Recall I posted one once thinking it was a works car, but it was the modified setup of the RRC Walker car?

I think this was the one...



There was discussion about whether it was as the factory made it or whether it was a mod done by the Rob Walker team. Was it in the Alford & Alder thread?

Anyway, there's lots of stuff in this, because Bob Britton snapped the pics to study them to learn how he might best go about building his own cars. There's Lola FJr shots and Cooper pics by the dozen... here's a Monaco with its clothes off now:



Notice they're warming up the gearbox and diff? Like I said, there's stacks of stuff here, some very interesting pics... not to forget my favourite:

http://i2.tinypic.com/ou8k1z.jpg

[John Ellacott]

Interesting photos Ray of the Lotuss Loti, both the Team Lotus F1 car at Warwick Farm .and the junior at Easter Bathurst for Leo's first outing, i think, in an open wheeler This was the car Moss drove on the Friday practice at the first Warwick Farm International to learn the circuit while awaiting the arrival of his car from N ew Zealand.I have a photo of myself sitting in the Innes Ireland car while at the Leaton Motors workshop----46 years ago --phew. Must learn how to post my pictures on the forum.

[Ray Bell]

John, nice to see you're looking in so diligently...

Just go to http://imageshack.us ... the instructions are simple... I've posted this before, but for you:

For Image Shack, here's the simple guide... with Image Shack you can actually create a register of the pics you use and go back to them to re-use them if you wish.

Again, open up Image Shack, then browse, select and click 'open'... then click on 'host it!'...



Shortly you'll see the page come up with the various options for you, there's a thumbnail there to confirm the picture you have uploaded. Normally you'd use the full size pic, so click on 'Hotlink for forums 1' and right click, then click on 'copy' as shown...



...then paste to your post...



Notice the other options... direct link, thumbnails...

These pics remain viable for twelve months after they're last accessed.