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Shelby America and AC Cars (merged)


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#151 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 14:14

The electron silence is pompously defeaning......NURSE!!


Perhaps that should tell you something.... Nurse, indeed....

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#152 Derek Pitt

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 14:39

Perhaps that should tell you something.... Nurse, indeed....


A topic contribution would be better..its not hard to concentrate

As we aussies say ..have a go..

We like debate cos we loyal

Good Luckv

#153 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 16:28

I think we have a continuation of the English/American differences here :rolleyes:


The Ford GT program -- the "GT40" nonsense was PR babble as it turns out -- and the Cobra project preceding it were firmly rooted in the pragmatic nature of how Racers operate: find what works or could work and take it from there.

Had Carroll Shelby found another chassis other than that of the AC Ace for the Cobra, doubtless he would have used that instead, regardless of its nationality. Indeed, given that the Sundeam Alpine and the AH 3000 series both proved capable of handling American V-8s (the Tiger/Tiger II for the Alpine and any number of hot rod conversions for the 3000), there were other options besides AC and its Ace.

The FAV effort was a corporate effort based in the UK and which took advantage of placing the project in the hands of folks familiar with the task of building such machinery. That it was less expensive to place it there rather than in the US was also one of the considerations, and one often overlooked, of course. The first products of the Ford GT program were less than successful for any number of reasons, but once the GT program was farmed out to the Shelby American organization and then included Holman-Moody as well, it began to experience a measure of success.

Whether the Cobra was British/English or American is of any real interest only to those who view things through prisms which allow them to discern only what they wish. Whatever else the Cobra was, it was a hybrid, a blend, basically a mongrel that worked well enough to enjoy a level of success so that it still warrants consideration decades later. It came about during what was to be one of the more interesting periods of both American and International racing, with both benefiting from the experience.

Once again, whatever Shelby's faults, real or imagined, might have been, he certainly saw his opportunity and took it with both hands, which more than can be said for many others.

Postscript. The "parentage" of the Cobra project (and the Ford GT program as well for that matter) is such that it seems that both the American and British sides of the family endlessly squabble over it in some sort of attempt to see how big a share of the inheritence that side can claim. Whatever else else people mihgt disagree upon about the Cobra, it is clear that it was created by an American team and aimed at and marketed to the American market and used American engines and drivetrains as a part of that strategy. While Mom might have been British, Dad was an American and in competition it used an American entry for the works team. Rather than celebrate the efforts of a coalition that was successful, we seem to generally revert back to the squabbling mentioned earlier. Oh, well....

Edited by HDonaldCapps, 01 June 2009 - 03:55.


#154 Frank S

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 21:02

In US of A law a child is a US citizen at birth, if (at least) one parent is a US citizen.

Who's yo' Daddy, Mr Cobra?


(Aside: this BB lets you put someone on your "Ignore" list but doesn't actually allow you to ignore the recipient of that honor: the name and some options appear in place of the honored miscreant's posts; not satisfactory :evil: )

#155 Rob Miller

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 21:36

In US of A law a child is a US citizen at birth, if (at least) one parent is a US citizen.

Who's yo' Daddy, Mr Cobra?


It is more complicated than that.

I am a US citizen, but because I have lived most of my life outside of the USA my children could not have US citizenship at birth.


#156 Frank S

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Posted 01 June 2009 - 00:28

It is more complicated than that.

I am a US citizen, but because I have lived most of my life outside of the USA my children could not have US citizenship at birth.


So how much of his life did the Cobras' Daddy live outside the USA?

By "most" do you mean half plus one day/hour/minute? Is there an official maximum/minimum/proportion?

Sorry about your children.


#157 RCH

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Posted 01 June 2009 - 11:28

I think we're getting a bit off the subject here! As has been said the Cobra was an effective machine and came about because of Carroll Shelby. I've never been a fan of them and think the overarched, overwheeled and over engined 427 "replicas" truly awful but an original 289 is something different and the Daytona is one of the most attractive racers ever. I'm prepared to accept them as American.

What I don't like are the stories we seem to be hearing of how the little "down home" American Shelby team "whopped Ferrari's ass" (if you'll excuse the Americanisms). Shelby, backed by enough Ford money, was really the only one who took the GT championship seriously.

#158 ray b

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Posted 01 June 2009 - 20:50

did any one stick any V8 in an AC ace car before shelby ?

or any other odd motors in an ace esp in races

a buddy who was the shop boy parts runner at shelby's shop
claims to have done the ruff sketch of the coupe before the big boys
took his idea and ran with it crediting the car to pete brock

#159 RCH

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Posted 04 June 2009 - 12:57

did any one stick any V8 in an AC ace car before shelby ?

or any other odd motors in an ace esp in races

a buddy who was the shop boy parts runner at shelby's shop
claims to have done the ruff sketch of the coupe before the big boys
took his idea and ran with it crediting the car to pete brock


I've a feeling there was a Jaguar engined Ace racing in the very early '60's?

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#160 cdrewett

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Posted 04 June 2009 - 16:22

Now a bit off topic did Jaguar ever realise they had potential for a Cobra eater with the (completely invented by me now!) Daimler SP450? Majestic Major engine in SP250 "Dart" chassis. Would it have been feasible?

Well my best friend had an SP250 in 1964, and every time we went over a bump the doors flew open. I think the chassis was based on the Triumph TR3 with the torsional stiffness of a wet cardboard box. So a Majestic Major engine in it would probably have been great till it got to the first corner.
Great engine though. It's a pity it was never used in anything more sporty.
Chris

#161 Voodoo Bob

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Posted 04 June 2009 - 16:58

Surely the key to this issue and, yes, I have read the net and read this thread thoroughly, is how many cars were made overall and how many were made in the UK and how many were made in USA?


According to the latest edition (4th, 2009) of World Registry of Cobras and GT40s, the total number of "leaf spring" Cobras (260 and 289 cubic-inch engines) was 655. Of those, 75 had 260 engines and 580 had 289s. All of the 260s were assembled by Shelby American. Of the total with 289s, 518 were assembled by Shelby American (CSX cars) and 62 were assembled in Britain (COB/COX cars). 45 of these were COB cars and 17 were COX cars. The four-digit serial numbers of the COB/COX cars begin with a 6 (CSX leaf spring car serial numbers begin with a 2). Of the 62 COB/COX cars, only two were produced as race cars.

While the CSX cars were known as the "Shelby Cobra," the COB/COX cars were called the "AC Cobra 289" and had a round AC badge on the trunk (boot) lid, the round "snake" badge on the hood (bonnet), and did not have the "Powered by Ford" badge on the fenders (wings).

Also according to the Registry, the meanings of the serial number prefixes are:

CSX: C/Shelby/eXport (cars sent to Shelby American in the US for completion)
COB: CObra/Britain (cars built for sale in Britain, right-hand drive)
COX: CObra/ eXport (cars built for export to places other than the US or Britain, left-hand drive)

#162 Frank S

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Posted 04 June 2009 - 21:41

Well my best friend had an SP250 in 1964, and every time we went over a bump the doors flew open. I think the chassis was based on the Triumph TR3 with the torsional stiffness of a wet cardboard box. So a Majestic Major engine in it would probably have been great till it got to the first corner.
Great engine though. It's a pity it was never used in anything more sporty.
Chris


In the 1960s (and perhaps earlier) a San Diego SCCA Region member had a Daimler SP250-engined Austin-Healey 100, BRG. It ran and sounded good, and of course looked wonderful. It was not competitive in the pertinent modified class, likely because the driver was a really big, heavy man, but he derived great pleasure from racing and talking about it.


#163 Jerry Entin

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Posted 04 June 2009 - 21:46

Bill Denison in Albuquerque, New Mexico beat Carroll Shelby by two years. He put a Chevy V8 in his AC Bristol in 1959 and ran it in SCCA Regionals in the Southwest

all research Willem Oosthoek

#164 RCH

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Posted 05 June 2009 - 09:33

Well my best friend had an SP250 in 1964, and every time we went over a bump the doors flew open. I think the chassis was based on the Triumph TR3 with the torsional stiffness of a wet cardboard box. So a Majestic Major engine in it would probably have been great till it got to the first corner.
Great engine though. It's a pity it was never used in anything more sporty.
Chris


Yes I have heard from various sources that the SP250 was not exactly the stiffest chassis in the world! Also it is apparently a "copy" of the Triumph so not exactly the greatest place to start.

My thinking was that Jaguar seemed to have lost all interest in their sporting/racing tradition by about mid-1963 with the defeat of the Mk IIs and the fact that the Lightweight needed development that was never given. Had they been more interested they could have had an answer to the swelte GTO with the Low Drag Lightweight and the brute force Cobra with a re-engineered Daimler.

Still sadly never happened and of no relevance whatsover to a Cobra thread. Sorry Guys!

#165 Peter Morley

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Posted 05 June 2009 - 10:57

did any one stick any V8 in an AC ace car before shelby ?

or any other odd motors in an ace esp in races

a buddy who was the shop boy parts runner at shelby's shop
claims to have done the ruff sketch of the coupe before the big boys
took his idea and ran with it crediting the car to pete brock


According to the Register of surviving Aces quite a few different engines have been fitted to Aces (of course this doesn't say when they were fitted), these include:
Triumph 2.5
Ford 4.2 & 4.7
BMW 3.0
Alfa 2.0
Ford V6
Jaguar 2.4 & 3.4
Chevrolet V8
Pontiac 4.0
Rover V8

The Bristol engined Aces tend to have stuck with their original type of engine, but a couple of have gained Ford 2.6s or V8s and the odd Chevy V8 plus a Jaguar 3.8

No idea if any raced in period with these engines but there was an Aceca raced with a Jaguar engine by Stanley Richardson.



#166 cdrewett

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Posted 05 June 2009 - 12:42

Yes I have heard from various sources that the SP250 was not exactly the stiffest chassis in the world! Also it is apparently a "copy" of the Triumph so not exactly the greatest place to start.

My thinking was that Jaguar seemed to have lost all interest in their sporting/racing tradition by about mid-1963 with the defeat of the Mk IIs and the fact that the Lightweight needed development that was never given. Had they been more interested they could have had an answer to the swelte GTO with the Low Drag Lightweight and the brute force Cobra with a re-engineered Daimler.

Still sadly never happened and of no relevance whatsover to a Cobra thread. Sorry Guys!

Still irrelevant to the Cobra thread, but having seen Alvis and Standard Vanguard saloons etc racing at Goodwood Revival, I have often thought that a properly prepared Daimler Majestic might give the Fairlanes a fright.
Chris

#167 D-Type

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Posted 05 June 2009 - 13:05

Hmmm, interesting thought. Back in the day Motor Sport were very impressed with the handling of the Majestic Major

#168 RCH

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Posted 05 June 2009 - 14:02

Hmmm, interesting thought. Back in the day Motor Sport were very impressed with the handling of the Majestic Major


Didn't a Majestic Major win the Classic Monte a few years ago?

#169 ianselva

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Posted 05 June 2009 - 16:00

According to the Register of surviving Aces quite a few different engines have been fitted to Aces (of course this doesn't say when they were fitted), these include:
Triumph 2.5
Ford 4.2 & 4.7
BMW 3.0
Alfa 2.0
Ford V6
Jaguar 2.4 & 3.4
Chevrolet V8
Pontiac 4.0
Rover V8

The Bristol engined Aces tend to have stuck with their original type of engine, but a couple of have gained Ford 2.6s or V8s and the odd Chevy V8 plus a Jaguar 3.8

No idea if any raced in period with these engines but there was an Aceca raced with a Jaguar engine by Stanley Richardson.

I thought the Ace was fitted with a 2.3 Ford Zephyr engine as standard for a few years.

#170 D-Type

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Posted 05 June 2009 - 16:30

I thought the Ace was fitted with a 2.3 Ford Zephyr engine as standard for a few years.

Correct. A couple of websites confirm that the Ace was introduced in 1953 and the Aceca in 1954, both with the AC engine. Then in 1956 the Bristol engine was offered as an option. then in 1961 the Bristol engine was discontinued so AC offered the Ruddspeed-modified 2.6 litre Ford Zephyr engine to replace the Bristol option.
Then in 1962 came the Cobra ...


#171 Peter Morley

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Posted 05 June 2009 - 17:48

I thought the Ace was fitted with a 2.3 Ford Zephyr engine as standard for a few years.


It was the Mark 2 Zephyr engine (2.6 litres) that was fitted into the last 2 dozen or so Aces - as the Bristol supply had dried up.

#172 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 05 June 2009 - 18:21

there was an Aceca raced with a Jaguar engine by Stanley Richardson.


Dr. Claire Wilson was one of the major founders of the Westwood track. I believe in this 1959 photo, he is working on the Jaguar engine in his Aceca. I don't think he raced it:

Posted Image

Vince H.



#173 arttidesco

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Posted 21 September 2011 - 10:21

Another entertaining thread, makes me question if the Allies would ever have won WW2 without a little help from the Italians :rolleyes:

Posted Image

Moving swiftly on I am wondering if any one might know which, if any, of the original six Shelby American Cobra Daytona Coupés was entered by Daniella Ellerbrock for Kenny Brack and Tom Kristensen at Goodwood last weekend ?

Relevant Answers may be duly credited and used in a forthcoming blog.

Thanking you in anticipation of your responses.

PS Which ever side of the pond you hail from please continue to play 'nice'  ;)

#174 bill p

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Posted 21 September 2011 - 10:53

Moving swiftly on I am wondering if any one might know which, if any, of the original six Shelby American Cobra Daytona Coupés was entered by Daniella Ellerbrock for Kenny Brack and Tom Kristensen at Goodwood last weekend ?

Relevant Answers may be duly credited and used in a forthcoming blog.

Thanking you in anticipation of your responses.


CSX 2300, according to the car cover

Posted Image

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#175 arttidesco

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Posted 21 September 2011 - 10:55

Much appreciated bill :up:

#176 Buchanman

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Posted 21 September 2011 - 18:46

A guy who worked with me many years ago said he was employed as a welder at AC Cars in Thames Ditton.

I am sure he did, as he could relate all the details about the cars and people who worked there and recalled that himself and another welder were in the middle of welding up the very first chassis for the 7 litre Cobra when the foreman told them to stop and move across to the invalid carriage chassis area and finish off some of the chassis they were waiting for!!

Probably the only time that a Cobra had to wait for an invalid carriage to go first!

Regards,
Buchanman.


#177 arttidesco

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 00:39

Here is the link bill thanks again :cool:



#178 E1pix

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 00:49

Does anyone know how to search for a particular Shelby using former owner's names?

My Dad had a Jade Green, '69 GT500 from 1970 until the mid-90s in Wisconsin, and I am curious what happened to it.

Thanks.

Edited by E1pix, 22 September 2011 - 00:50.


#179 arttidesco

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 07:25

If you have a VIN Vintage Mustang Forums might be able to help, if you do not you could try anyway  ;)

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#180 bill p

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 08:53

Here is the link bill thanks again :cool:


You're welcome - good photos on your site


#181 E1pix

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Posted 22 September 2011 - 17:37

If you have a VIN Vintage Mustang Forums might be able to help, if you do not you could try anyway ;)

Thanks, Arti, I did look on there a while back and saw a VIN was needed. I think the VIN's been binned, sadly. :(

#182 Frank S

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Posted 24 September 2011 - 00:58

The astute and generous folks at Shelby American Automobile Club forums will likely have an answer, if there is one.

1969-1970 GT 350 and GT500

#183 E1pix

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Posted 24 September 2011 - 01:25

Thank You, Frank! :up:

I'll let you know how it goes.

#184 arttidesco

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Posted 24 September 2011 - 06:54

Posted Image

Photo posted on behalf of Geoffrey Horton.

Seems CSX2300 was not the only Daytona Cobra out last weekend, wondering if any one knows which, if any, of the six this one Geoffrey spotted at the Palos Verdas Concours event is ?

Thanking you in anticipation of your responses.

#185 Gregor Marshall

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 12:34

There were three Daytona Coupes at Spa at the weekend, two blue and white (one was CSX2300) and one in the bare metal (which was rather crumpled by a large accident at Eau Rouge).

#186 Wouter Melissen

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 12:59

There were three Daytona Coupes at Spa at the weekend, two blue and white (one was CSX2300) and one in the bare metal (which was rather crumpled by a large accident at Eau Rouge).


Was the other blue/white one raced by Ludovic Caron?

#187 Louism

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Posted 28 September 2011 - 13:33

Ludovic's Daytona is not one of the six coupé (+2 with Willment and A98).

This was made on chassis COX 6002...

Edited by Louism, 28 September 2011 - 13:44.