85 replies to this topic

[Rob Ryder]

After looking expectantly at the New Year Honours list I must vent my feeling somewhere!

To quote David Malsher in Autospurt...
"To car and bike racing fans the fact that John Surtees isn't a knight stinks, quite frankly."

I'll echo that feeling, especially when I see that singer Tom Jones gets a knighthood

Maybe Big John's trousers weren't tight enough?

Rob

[bill moffat]

..and OBE's to an entire England Ashes squad. Given the teams performance since late Summer QE2 may feel inclined to ask for them back.

PS I believe Buck. House is sympathetic to organisations drawing attention to prospective worthy individuals, perhaps it's up to us to do just that so as to ensure that Big John is not overlooked next year.

[Doug Nye]

In fact, England cricket captain Vaughan, coach Fletcher, selector Graveney and tour manager Neale have been awarded OBEs, the rest of the Ashes team players MBEs. The award of an OBE to Bliar's croney and foul-mouthed cook Gordon Ramsay - whose TV programmes (oddly) I have quite enjoyed - is the one which really sticks in my craw....whose life has he enlivened in the brief period since he came to prominence? I do have my doubts about the Ashes team members whose performances did not contribute very much to their historic victory - that's Honour by association which is a little bit, well, best left undiscussed... Not to mention the hammering the boys have just suffered at the really talented hands of Pakistan. What was Graham Hill's famous quote? "From ace to ----h--e in a tenth of a second".

DCN

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by Doug Nye

...Bliar's...

[ensign14]

Cricket has always been over-represented in honours. Lord Cowdrey? Yet no Sir Bobby Moore. Jeez.

Motor racing has always been under-represented. Segrave got his K through Land Speed Recording, rather than Grand Prixing. (But no Sir Andy Green and Sir Richard Noble? Jeez.)*

I wonder whether Il Grande John's political beliefs, which do not endear him to everyone, have any effect on his lack of knighthood? Or has he been offered one and turned it down?

* compare the treatment to serious drama - Dame Judi Dench, Sir Ian McKellen, Lord Gielgud - with the total lack of respect to comedians/entertainers; no Sir Ken Dodd, no Sir Brucey Bonus, no Sir Eric Sykes, no Sir Charlie Chaplin &c &c. Even if you don't like them 50+ years at the top of their profession surely entitles one to an honour.

[flat-16]

After "Sir" Mick Jagger last year, I vowed not to get my pants in a twist over the NY honours list...

"Sir" Mick has devalued the whole currency IMHO (BTW, I work in the music industry, and enjoy music from the 'Stones, but WTF did he do to get that honour? Surely the honour should go to Bianca if any Jagger is worth an honour...)

I hate to make a political statement in the halls of TNF, but I can only remark that this kind of injustice is what to expect when you have the most politically-vacuous and divisive govt in history.

If ever someone deserved a knighthood, it would be Surtees... Maybe he turned it down?





Justin

[angst]

Originally posted by flat-16
After "Sir" Mick Jagger last year, I vowed not to get my pants in a twist over the NY honours list...

"Sir" Mick has devalued the whole currency IMHO (BTW, I work in the music industry, and enjoy music from the 'Stones, but WTF did he do to get that honour? Surely the honour should go to Bianca if any Jagger is worth an honour...)

I hate to make a political statement in the halls of TNF, but I can only remark that this kind of injustice is what to expect when you have the most politically-vacuous and divisive govt in history.

If ever someone deserved a knighthood, it would be Surtees... Maybe he turned it down?





Justin

I'm unaware of Sir John's (as he should be) political views, but regard his achievements as surely being reason enough for a visit to the Palace.

As for Bliar ( ), while his style is vaccuous and self-serving it is because, unfortunately, Western Europe is in the grip of some of the most vaccuous, self-serving politics we're ever likely to see. It's what comes next that is more worrysome. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

[flat-16]

When the "Oscars" are announced every year, the "Raspberries" are also announced... Maybe a similar arrangement should be made for the NY honours list?

Possibly such an organisation already exists?

Justin

[ensign14]

Originally posted by flat-16
(BTW, I work in the music industry, and enjoy music from the 'Stones, but WTF did he do to get that honour? Surely the honour should go to Bianca if any Jagger is worth an honour...)

Having performed on and/or co-written more number 1 hit singles than anyone other than Lennon/McCartney, and had similar success in the States, and having generated millions for the British economy as a result, I think it's fair enough. Even though he's done nothing worth listening to since 1969.

[MPea3]

Originally posted by Rob Ryder


I'll echo that feeling, especially when I see that singer Tom Jones gets a knighthood

Maybe Big John's trousers weren't tight enough?

Rob

A bit of nostalgia not related to motorsports, but in my college days working as a union musician, I had the pleasure of spending 3 different 10 day stints on the road with Tom Jones. One of the things that I found ironic was that in private he was the opposite of the man he played on stage, being fairly quiet and totally devoted to his son who traveled with him. He and Tony Bennet were probably the 2 nicest gentlemen I ever worked with.

One of the parts of his act that always brought the house down played off of the manner in which women would throw their panties at him on stage. His crew kept a large box of the most God awful looking brightly colored and flowered panties, and every night, one of them would throw a pair of the damn things up on stage. Tom Jones would see these panties, and while singing along, casually walk over, pick them up, and stuff them in his mouth. The women went wild.

One night we managed to get ahold of a pair of these panties from the box. When the guy from his crew threw the panties on stage, he stuffed them in his mouth as usual to the screams of the crowd. Right about then our own plant threw the second pair onstage which landed right at his feet...

As I remember he spit the first pair all the way off stage a couple of rows deep into the crowd. When he turned around and saw all of us laughing, he knew he'd been had.

Okay, back to motorsports.

[Richard Jenkins]

No Sir Sid Watkins either. In fact, nothing at all for any motorsport person, reading CEEFAX. Yet a bunch of drunks who lollop around in a park all day who managed to beat another seemingly worse bunch of drunks get MBE's all round?

and purely from another point of view, Bruce Forsyth's CBE should've been upgraded one & Richard Briers should've been a knight years ago. But it's who you know, not what you've done if you're a "celebrity".

At least, political honours were down significantly, no patting on the backs for unknown backbenchers.

I would also like to see the remaining WWI veterans recieve an award. The French honoured them some years ago by giving them their highest honour, whereas as Britain seemingly ignores them.


But as shameful as the Honours List is, I know it's always going to be a sense of anti-climax & disappointment. I've been saying Surtees should've been knighted for some 6 or 7 years now.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Richie Jenkins

I would also like to see the remaining WWI veterans recieve an award. The French honoured them some years ago by giving them their highest honour, whereas as Britain seemingly ignores them.

That would effectively be an award for longevity...those that have not had another 80 years on this side maybe deserve it more...

[Wolf]

Sorry gents, I thought you'd have gotten used to it by now- didn't SCM get his knighthood some 40 years after he retired from racing?

[dretceterini]

Originally posted by Twin Window

You must be talking about Herr Chimppy Von Poopiepants best friend

[Richard Jenkins]

Originally posted by ensign14

That would effectively be an award for longevity...those that have not had another 80 years on this side maybe deserve it more...

There is that argument, yes. Having said that, some of those who do survive have done sterling community work & 3 of them are still particulary instrumental in teaching today's generation the horrors of so long ago. At the very least, they should knight Denis Goodwin, who has been looking after & finding these old gents & making their last days comfortable & rewarding - I think that would be a good gesture if state funerals & awards seem too much.


Having said that, the long dead & those who survived but have since gone were treated abymsally during and after the war. A token gesture might go some way to restoring some of the shabby treatment of governments past....

[ensign14]

De-robing Haig would be a start.

[fifi]

the whole honors system anyway is a crock of shite

[paulhooft]

Sir Henry Potter?

[JohnS]

Originally posted by ensign14
I wonder whether Il Grande John's political beliefs, which do not endear him to everyone, have any effect on his lack of knighthood? Or has he been offered one and turned it down?

What are his beliefs?

[Gerald Swan]

Honestly you guys, it's really simple, all any of the above mentioned, sadly overlooked people need to do is make a generous donation to New Labour's coffers and the knighthood is in the post.

Sadly it has ever been thus .

Gerald.

www.lolaheritage.co.uk

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Richie Jenkins
No Sir Sid Watkins either. In fact, nothing at all for any motorsport person, reading CEEFAX. Yet a bunch of drunks who lollop around in a park all day who managed to beat another seemingly worse bunch of drunks get MBE's all round?

and purely from another point of view, Bruce Forsyth's CBE should've been upgraded one & Richard Briers should've been a knight years ago. But it's who you know, not what you've done if you're a "celebrity".

At least, political honours were down significantly, no patting on the backs for unknown backbenchers.

I would also like to see the remaining WWI veterans recieve an award. The French honoured them some years ago by giving them their highest honour, whereas as Britain seemingly ignores them.


But as shameful as the Honours List is, I know it's always going to be a sense of anti-climax & disappointment. I've been saying Surtees should've been knighted for some 6 or 7 years now.

Like Doug, I'm a cricket fan, but I'm not convinced the whole team should have got gongs: Vaughan certainly, Trescothick probably, but none of the rest was consistent throughout the series. I don't think any of the 1953 team got them specifically for winning the Ashes. Duncan Fletcher deserved something too, but I think he's still a Zimbabwean citizen - and it was a travesty that he didn't get Coach of the Year on Sports Review of the Year.

Bliar is no doubt saving the political honours for his resignation list .... that could make the infamous Wilson/Falkender "Lavender List" look honest!

Like flat-16, I wonder if Big John turned one down.

Ensign: surely Chaplin got a K not long before he died? IIRC he'd fallen foul of McCarthy and his crew and left Hollywood for Switzerland: HM Gov weren't all that keen on rewarding tax exiles then, so he had to wait a long time.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Gerald Swan
Honestly you guys, it's really simple, all any of the above mentioned, sadly overlooked people need to do is make a generous donation to New Labour's coffers and the knighthood is in the post.

Sadly it has ever been thus

Just to give this thread some credibility, Gerald, why don't you post a full-ish size pic of your avatar?

We'd appreciate that...

[kayemod]

Originally posted by Wolf
Sorry gents, I thought you'd have gotten used to it by now- didn't SCM get his knighthood some 40 years after he retired from racing?

Indeed, and if there's a Greatest Living Englishman award, he should get that as well.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by ensign14
Motor racing has always been under-represented. Segrave got his K through Land Speed Recording, rather than Grand Prixing. (But no Sir Andy Green and Sir Richard Noble? Jeez.)*

[/SIZE]

It could be said that Segrave got his for GP racing as well, as he was one of only two British winners of a continental GP between the wars - and the only one to do it in a (theoretically) British car. Campbell's was purely for record-breaking, I'd have thought. Cobb's certainly. But there's the rub - in the 20s and 30s record breaking was big news. Cobb broke his own 1939 mark in 1947, but it was 1964 before that went down to Donald Campbell, by which time the popular focus had shifted to air speed records. That said, Green and Noble deserved more for their achievements.

Had fate not intervened, I'm sure we would have long ago been applauding honours for Sir James Clark, Sir Graham Hill and perhaps Sir Bruce McLaren (and maybe even Sir Michael Hawthorn?)

[Gerald Swan]

Hi Ray, I'm all in favour of some credibility .

Some T160, fresh from the factory, pics for you here; T160, all from the Lola Archive.


Is it me or should we all be doing something else on New Year's Eve...... no, on second thoughts this will do me ;).

Gerald.

www.lolaheritage.co.uk

[Ray Bell]

Just great seeing that original Team Surtees arrow again!

But why not a T70?

And yes, why not a knighthood?

[philippe charuest]

nothing will surprise me coming from a country who did a "lord" of Conrad Black ;)

[mctshirt]

Originally posted by bill moffat

PS I believe Buck. House is sympathetic to organisations drawing attention to prospective worthy individuals, perhaps it's up to us to do just that so as to ensure that Big John is not overlooked next year.

If you feel strongly enough the info is here: http://www.cabinetof...al/nominations/

[Ross Stonefeld]

What I dont understand is in Britain if you win something "big" (not that I consider the Ashes anything noteworthy) the coach gets the highest honor usually, and the players get decreasingly important awards. Ie Sir Clive Woodwoord.

So why at the very least, are there no O/M/CBE's for World Championship winning drivers? I dont think I'd give one to Andy Priaulx or Chaz Davies when he wins 250s, but Damon, Nigel *shudder*, certainly deserve something? And where are the accolades for Frank and Ron? Yes Frank was ultimately knighted, but at what point are people going to recognise that they've absolutely dominated the sport over decades in something a lot more complicated than say, rugby.

I think its really down to the public eye factor. I was bemused the other day to learn how low the medal count was for Dame Kelly Holmes. And the whole cricket follow on factor makes me laugh and sigh. During the height of the Ashes I remember sitting in a pub in London with an Australian and a Brit. I know next to nothing about cricket, but I was correcting some of the mistakes the Brit was making in talking about what was going on, because he'd literally become a cricket fan that day. And of course when they won, Cricket is suddenly a national sport. The silly thing is it came after the domestic season had ended, there's no way they were going to maintain that momentum until next April! Anytime Britain is winning at something, the popularity goes up. If its vs Australia, treble that number. Now that they're getting savaged by a real team and the football season is under way....

[Alan Cox]

The whole British honours system is now an absoloute joke. I echo the sentiments of previous posts.
Reading about his medals being sold recently, I was staggered to note that Neville Duke has not been knighted. A WWll fighter ace, world air-speed record holder, test pilot extrordinaire and contributor to post-war British aviation success. If one only has to snort a few lines of coke, wail into a microphone, get plastered across the 'red tops' to get honoured by Toby, I suspect yesterday's heroes would prefer to go unnoticed.

[Paul Parker]

Happy New Year to all TNFers.

That's enough of the greetings. Very well said Alan Cox et al. The whole 'gong' issue is a farce, stretching back to the dim and distant. Occasionally there are those who are worthy of the honour but personally I cannot see why being a winner or beneficiary of a successful career in any profession or pursuit should qualify for a medal or title, as distinct from those who gave of their time or placed their country or others above personal interest.

It is all a load of bullshit, all too frequently motivated by political prejudices and patronage, as history proves.

[flat-16]

One of the things I like about TNF is that politics, other than those pertaining to Racing, are kept out of the group, which means we can celebrate our common bond regardless of political persuasion.

In light of the above, I'm a hypocrite stating my opinion...oh hell, it's the holiday season.

The current UK govt. have a penchant for taking pot-shots at the "ex ruling class"; e.g they have no problem causing the extermination of thousands in an illegal war, yet *care* deeply about the country fox... e.g the abolition of hereditary peers... etc etc

My take on the devaluation of the honours system (the New Year's "Dishonour List"), with savages such as Ramsay and Jagger (Ronald McDonald's created plenty of revenue for GB-plc, surely he deserves a knighthood on that premise?) receiving awards, instead of worthy contenders such as JS or Neville Duke (the mind boggles there...), is that Noo Labour / Bliar quite wilfully want to degrade the status of a knighthood - the intention being an extension of the kind of inverse-snobbery we've witnessed in the other examples.

Call me a cynic if you will.

Excuse the hastily written post - must get back to bed as 'flu rages.

Justin

edit:

It is all a load of bullshit, all too frequently motivated by political prejudices and patronage, as history proves.

Spot-on!

Happy New Year to all TNFers!

[Vitesse2]

O/T ish ....

I was discussing the cricketers' gongs today with one of my customers (a retired postmaster in his late 70s who also runs a couple of vintage cars). Like me, he felt that it was totally OTT to give them all honours, but he did tell me a story about his father, an RFC pilot in WW1.

After the war he stayed on in the RAF and one one occasion in the early 20s was detailed to fly the inventor of a heated flying suit (the Sidcot perhaps?) from Somerset to Yorkshire. During the flight the engine cut out and an emergency landing was required. The pilot glided down towards a likely field, but on his final approach suddenly discovered a haystack on his intended flight path. Only one thing to do - he landed on it! This broke the plane's back and the front and rear halves ended up on each side of the haystack.

The passenger was so impressed with this feat that he recommended him for an OBE - which was politely refused on the grounds that all the war profiteers and arms manufacturers had one and there was no way that he wished to be associated with or identified as one of these people!

Plus ça change ....

[Ray Bell]

I really doubt that that's off-topic, Speedy...

We could probably all name some who have been given these honours without merit that's visible to us. One thing about it, though... do those who are knighted still have waivers from certain aspects of the law?

I'm sure I've been told that they do.

[philippe charuest]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
I really doubt that that's off-topic, Speedy...

We could probably all name some who have been given these honours without merit that's visible to us. One thing about it, though... do those who are knighted still have waivers from certain aspects of the law?

I'm sure I've been told that they do.

i certainly hope not.i was under the impression that those privilege were gone in england and that the sir-lord and the so call "nobles" had to pay the same tax and be rule by the same laws then any other citizen

[Vitesse2]

Correct, Philippe. No-one is above the law.

Except foreign diplomats apparently, who claim immunity on everything from parking fines to drunk and disorderly ....

[kayemod]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
I really doubt that that's off-topic, Speedy...

We could probably all name some who have been given these honours without merit that's visible to us. One thing about it, though... do those who are knighted still have waivers from certain aspects of the law?

I'm sure I've been told that they do.

Apparently they find it a little easier to get tables in good restaurants, but I think that's as far as the benefits go. Droit de seigneur went out several centuries ago.

[Richard Jenkins]

Originally posted by Ray Bell

One thing about it, though... do those who are knighted still have waivers from certain aspects of the law?

I'm sure I've been told that they do.

No.
Three words to you:


SIR MARK THATCHER

[ensign14]

Knighted for services to touring car racing.

[Rob Ryder]

Originally posted by Richie Jenkins


No.
Three words to you:


SIR MARK THATCHER

Mark was never actually Knighted... he got lost on the way to the Palace

[kayemod]

Originally posted by Rob Ryder


Mark was never actually Knighted... he got lost on the way to the Palace

By some strange quirk of the UK Honours system, Thatcher junior inherited his title when his father died. He was never awarded it in the usual way, and he certainly did nothing to earn it, unless you can get a K these days for embarassing your own mother.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Its the 2007 list I'm worried about. If by some cataclysm of fate, we could be looking at Sir Sven and Wayne Rooney, OBE; I demand the forum introduce a puking smiley in preparation.

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by JohnS
What are his beliefs?

Sufficiently acceptable in the past for John already to have been awarded an MBE.

DCN

[ensign14]

I think these days an honest belief in anything disqualifies one from being offered an honour.

[Kpy]

This is just about the fluffiest thread I've ever seen on TNF. Belongs in the Paddock Club, where you gentlemen might care to spend some time reading the whole of this file:
http://tinyurl.com/bjlgx
and reflect.
Happy New Year to you all ;)

[Rob Ryder]

Originally posted by Kpy
This is just about the fluffiest thread I've ever seen on TNF. Belongs in the Paddock Club, where you gentlemen might care to spend some time reading the whole of this file:
http://tinyurl.com/bjlgx
and reflect.
Happy New Year to you all ;)

But what happens if you are not a member of the Paddock Club?
If you don't like it, DON'T READ IT!

Happy New Year to you
Rob

[Kpy]

Originally posted by Rob Ryder


But what happens if you are not a member of the Paddock Club?
If you don't like it, DON'T READ IT!

Rob, I wasn't getting at you, just the way this has developed.
TNF has a stated purpose - A forum dedicated to the research, study, discussion, and just plain ol' talking about the history of motor sports . Questions are always welcomed; variety is encouraged. If you have an interest in the history of motor sports, this is the place to be! - and is much the better when it stays within those limits.
There are reasons why Don Capps dolphins have slipped away.
Tootle pip!!;)

[Vitesse2]

The last time a controversial TNF thread was bumped into PC it came back.

It's a moot point as to whether this one started out as TNF fodder or not, but PC's stated purpose is "The place to talk about (almost!) any non-motorsport topic, while sipping champagne and socialising with others." In view of the fact that it is most definitely a motorsport topic - if not necessarily historically-based, I'd submit that the only other possible arena would be RC ....

[Kpy]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
The last time a controversial TNF thread was bumped into PC it came back.

It's a moot point as to whether this one started out as TNF fodder or not, but PC's stated purpose is "The place to talk about (almost!) any non-motorsport topic, while sipping champagne and socialising with others." In view of the fact that it is most definitely a motorsport topic - if not necessarily historically-based, I'd submit that the only other possible arena would be RC ....

Agreed, Richard. It started out with motorsport....

[Roger Clark]

I'm with kpy, and I don't normally like contributing to threads like this. However, there seems to be a widespread misunderstanding of the purpose of the honours system.

How would knighting John Surtees benefit the government?