352 replies to this topic

[Ted Walker]

If anyone wants to use my stand as a meeting point your most welcome Its situated by the 100 years of GP racing display in hall 11.Happy new year to all TNFers.

[Bonde]

Yes, I know, I know - Autospurt Multinational is mostly modern bits and pieces and thus probably of limited interest to some (most?) TNF'ers - but since I'm going there on business January 12 and 13, I thought I'd ask if there's anyone also of the nostalgic persuasion going - I'd like to be able to put faces to TNF posters - preferably over a pint!

AI January 11-13 - anyone?

[Twin Window]

Ted & Anders - I've merged your threads as they're on the same topic.

I'll be based on the Crash.Net/Autocourse stand (can't remember the number, but it's in the same position as last year) and will no doubt be involved in a fair amount of 'corridor duty' too!

I hope to see some of you chaps there...

[Roger Clark]

I am considering going, but I think it's only open to the general public on the 14th and 15th. The show web-site says:

"The 1961 Lotus Climax 18/21, driven by Stirling Moss whilst defeating the Ferrari works team in the Monaco Grand Prix for the Rob Walker Lotus team, will feature together with the 1966 Constructors’ winning car, the Brabham Repco BT20. 1962 World Champion Graham Hill’s BRM P56, which also won the Constructors’ title, will be sure to delight visitors as will son Damon’s Williams Renault FW18 in which he took the 1996 World Championship spoils."

So I should learn at least three things I didn't know before.

[Ted Walker]

Roger I agree its probably a waste of time and money,but a lot of my customers went last year,so thought I would give it a go.

[Mallory Dan]

More importantly who's up for Stoneleigh ?

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by Mallory Dan

More importantly who's up for Stoneleigh ?

At the risk of sounding like a stuck record, I'll be there on the 'Courses stand!

[Stuart_Forrest]

I'll be at ASI (and at Stoneleigh too, for that matter) and our stand sounds astonishingly close to Ted's, down near the 100 years of GP display (which sounds pretty special, from what I've heard).

Please feel free to come along and say hello. We're doing something with Scalextric which involves a 4 track Donington layout on our stand which you're all welcome to come and play on (although you'll have to wrench one of the controllers out of my sweaty mitts first), as well as the usual mix of back issues, new issues and subscriber incentives.

Twinny, Ted, I'll come and say hello on build day.

[RobertC]

Well I have to confess I'm going!!

I will be there on Friday.... my excuse, I need to try out my new camera....

To correct things I will be going to Stoneleigh as well!

Robert

[Ted Walker]

Stuart.Looking forward to it...............despite broken arm....perhaps you could lend me one of your nice young ladies???????????

[ensign14]

Not planned on going...last time I went it was a bit kev...all Max Power mods and stuff like that...Stoneleigh sounds much better to me...

[RTH]

I've already got the 'Demon Tweeks' catalogue.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Mallory Dan
More importantly who's up for Stoneleigh ?

I might well do Stoneleigh this year but I'm otherwise occupied for ASI (at least, the 'public' days). Did the trade days in 2004 and wasn't overly impressed with the direction the show's taking.

[Twin Window]

Just finalised our stand exhibits for the two shows; at the NEC we'll have on display the ex-James Hunt 1976 race-winning (plus the British GP 'win'!) McLaren M23, John Hopkins' Suzuki GSV-R MotoGP bike and a cadet kart.

For Stoneleigh we'll be hosting the Lotus 49 which Jim Clark drove to victory in the 1968 South African GP and either a 1982 Heron Suzuki or an MV Agusta.

[Michael Oliver]

Originally posted by Twin Window
Just finalised our stand exhibits for the two shows; at the NEC we'll have on display the ex-James Hunt 1976 race-winning (plus the British GP 'win'!) McLaren M23, John Hopkins' Suzuki GSV-R MotoGP bike and a cadet kart.

For Stoneleigh we'll be hosting the Lotus 49 which Jim Clark drove to victory in the 1968 South African GP and either a 1982 Heron Suzuki or an MV Agusta.

Hi Twinny

Oh dear! Sorry to have a go but you are helping to perpetuate a myth which is becoming increasingly prevalent, aided by the likes of Peter Windsor and other well-known scribes pedalling the same story.

The car (Lotus 49/R4) which Jim Clark drove to victory in the 1968 South African GP is no more, it was burnt out in a fire at Rob Walker's garage in March 1968. Following its win in SA (100% GP win rate!) it was sold to Rob Walker and Seppi crashed it in practice for the Race of Champions. It was taken back to Rob's garage where, during the strip-down of the car, a spark from a drill ignited some fuel vapour and the whole place went up, including several other famous cars (ex-Seaman Delage, Lotus 18, IIRC). The car was totally burnt out.

However, Rob Walker retained the ownership rights to the car, which he passed on to his mechanic, who sold them to Tom Wheatcroft, who sold them on to someone else, and subsequently (e.g. in the 1990s) work began on the construction of a replica of the car, using as much original gear as possible, including early DFV and ZR gearbox. IIRC, the car first appeared at the Lotus 50th anniversary meeting at Brands Hatch in 1998 (where it was helpfully described by a well-known Autosport contributor who should know better as making its 'post-restoration debut'!). It was originally painted in Rob Walker colours but has since been re-done in the livery it sported in South Africa 68, as clearly a Jim Clark-liveried car is of more interest/excitement to potential customers (e.g. exhibitions etc.) than a Rob Walker one...

Under my understanding of the regulations relating to continuous history as an entity, this car cannot claim to be 49/R4 as it was burnt out and therefore was not in existence for some 30 years. To my knowledge, the people who built it do not pretend that it is the real thing, but there could very well come a time where, if this story about it being the actual 68 South Africa winner is repeated often enough, it could become true, if you see what I mean!

Anyway, end of rant! Notwithstanding my above caveat, it sounds like you have got some really tasty wheels lined up for these events and I look forward to seeing them 'in the flesh'!!!

[Macca]

Here's 49/R4'R' at the Lotus Festival in June 1998 - it took me aback to see it, I thought 'that looks just like the one that was destroyed almost exactly 30 years ago'.

Jack Oliver then raced it at the Goodwood Revival in 1999.


Paul M

[Barry Boor]

Mmmm... where's that thread about over-restored vehicles?

[jorism]

I think the Lotus 49/R4 and M23 are from David and Lorina McLauglin. David showed me a plate with the full detailed history of the car which he lays in the car when it's displayed.

David last summer in Gilze, Netherlands:

[Michael Oliver]

Originally posted by jorism
I think the Lotus 49/R4 and M23 are from David and Lorina McLauglin. David showed me a plate with the full detailed history of the car which he lays in the car when it's displayed.

David last summer in Gilze, Netherlands:

You are correct about the connection with David and Lorina. However, as I have pointed out above, the car doesn't have a 'detailed history' - it is a replica built in the 1990s. It has an interesting story connected with how it came to be constructed but I think 'detailed history' is overdoing it somewhat!

[jorism]

Michael, I meant with "detailed history" that David underlines the fact that his car is a replica.

[zac510]

Hi guys, what is Stoneleigh?

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by zac510

Hi guys, what is Stoneleigh?

In a word, fantastic!

More info here - don't miss it!

[zac510]

That looks much more interesting! And gives me much more time to organise some travel up there. Cheers

[Barry Boor]

Look forward to meeting you, Zac.

Want a badge?

[zac510]

nah I'm not much of a TNFer, I just drop in sometimes

[RichardDP]

Best show I've been to in years, it's only getting better...

Had the good fortune to take this pic last year....



I for one will not be missing it !!

Richard

[Allen Brown]

I'll be at both.

The NEC is an amazing show if you want to see just how big 'the trade' has become. It's not about old racing cars or nostalgia, it's about the big brash motor racing industry that turns over squillions in this country. This isn't the sport, this is the business, in all its glory.

I'll also hugely enjoy Stoneleigh for completely different reasons.

Allen

[Ted Walker]

allen you can give me a hand for a couple of hours.You know you always meet the"proper people" on my stand

[Allen Brown]

Of course Ted, happy to.

I'll probably be at Stoneleigh on both Friday and Saturday as I'm meeting various people so I should be able to help you out a good chunk of the time.

Not so sure about the NEC, I'll probably go on one of the trade days.

What's the latest on the arm? When do you expect to be "fully armed"?

Allen

[René de Boer]

I'll be in Birmingham on Thursday and I will drop by at the varous TNF-affiliated stands. After more than a fortnight on the ski trail, covering the "four hills" ski jumping tournament, it is time for some motor racing talks again.

(although I must admit I also visited the "Jänner Rallye" in Austria on Saturday - a memorable event: 25 years ago, this was the rally on which the Audi quattro had its competition debut, Franz Wittmann winning by 21 minutes!)

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by RTH
I've already got the 'Demon Tweeks' catalogue.

Im still laughing at this one.

[Ted Walker]

Allen.Its the NEC thats the problem.Back to the hospital a week wed.keeping fongers crossed.

[Allen Brown]

Ted

I'll call you. Let's see what we can do.

Allen

[condor]

I'm a possibility for the Stoneleigh show...depending on the weather.

[Twin Window]

Don't worry; most of it's indoors...

;)

[Alan Cox]

A few photos from the NEC today (Thursday). A reasonable amount of stuff for those with an historic "bent", but nothing that you won't see at Stoneleigh, or the Donington Colection....

First of the Lola T70 "continuation" series

The Moss/Monaco '61 Lotus 18 on the '100 years of Grand Prix feature' - it was nice to be able to walk around some of the Donington cars away from their usual, more cramped surroundings



Eagle-Climax



and a rather effective Monaco setting for last year's F1 grid

[bigears]

Stuart: I might pop over at the Autocourse stall for a very small chat or a quick browse (it is because I am profoundly deaf but fear not, I am armed with a notepad and pen just in case and I speak farily well for a deaf person!)

[Ted Walker]

I have to admit that the show was very well done.Thanks to all the pi.. tak...s that popped by.

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by bigears

Stuart: I might pop over at the Autocourse stall for a very small chat or a quick browse...

Sorry to have missed you, Dave. Maybe we'll be luckier at Stoneleigh!

[bigears]

I couldn't find the Autocourse stand as you described and I even looked in the maps around the show and no avail.

Then I discovered that the name of the stand was based on crash.net when I got home!

I have never been to Stoneleigh and I never heard of it before. But it sounds really appealling so I might go there.

[Stephen W]

Originally posted by bigears
I couldn't find the Autocourse stand as you described and I even looked in the maps around the show and no avail.

Then I discovered that the name of the stand was based on crash.net when I got home!

I have never been to Stoneleigh and I never heard of it before. But it sounds really appealling so I might go there.

It is usually a superb show. This year there will be a Matra V12 engine on the Goodridge stand. The Midland Automobile Club's stand will be a tad smaller than last year's effort but well worth a look.

It is what I expect a motor racing show to be like, loads of interesting cars which you can get close to and people manning te stands who (a) know what they are talking about and (b) are not trying to sell you anything!

Don't miss it!

[Gary C]

the Bugatti Owners Club stand will feature an ex-Steve McQueen FJunior Cooper too.

[Allen Brown]

Originally posted by Ted Walker
...Thanks to all the pi.. tak...s that popped by.

I'd like to clarify that it wasn't me that started the 'one-armed bandit' jokes.

Allen

[Stephen W]

The latest PRESS RELEASE:

GIACOMO AGOSTINI HEADS STAR CAST OF TWO-WHEELED HEROES
at the International Historic Motorsport Show 2006

Fans of classic competition motorcycles are in for a rare treat at the 3rd International Historic Motorsport Show at Stoneleigh Park on 24-26 February 2006. A feast of famous bikes and riders will be coming to the Show, with Giacomo Agostini opening the Show to the public at 10.30am on Saturday 25 February.

Agostini is just one of many big names from the world of two-wheeled sport who will be available for autographs. Eight-times TT winner Phil Read will be there, not to mention Steve Parrish, plus seven-times TT winner Mick Grant. In addition to the star guests, a host of very special bikes will be on display, including Mick Grant's first Manx GP bike: the Jim Lee Velocette which led to his TT racing career.

Alongside the Jim Lee Velocette on the main motorcycle feature stand will be two of Barry Sheene's World Championship-winning bikes, those which took him to victory in 1976 and 1977. These bikes belong to the Sheene family and this will be the last opportunity to see them in Europe. After the Show, the two Suzuki RG500s (in Heron colours) will be returned to Australia.

Barry's World Championship bikes will be displayed next to the Fred Walmsley Manx Norton, his own personal classic racing bike, which Barry road to a double win at Donington Park in the 2001 British GP support race, and also to a win at Goodwood in 2001.

On the same stand is one of the very first Kawasaki works superbikes: the 1972 H2R 750, with its three-cylinder, two-stroke, air-cooled engine, ridden in its day by Gary Nixon. It has just arrived from America in its characteristic bright green and white livery, complete with Daytona scrutineering tags on the Randy Hall racing frame. The bike's tank is signed by Gary Nixon, Randy Hall and team manager Bob Hansen.

With all this comes the spectacular indoor pre-'65 classic motorcycle trial, with both solos and sidecars, not to mention the Show's four-wheeled action and displays. From Group B cars on the rally stage, to autotests and historic kart racing, plus 450 displays covering historic racing, rallying, hillclimbs and drag-racing, trials and classic motorcycles; plus engineering, car preparation and accessory companies; to books, art and memorabilia, an autojumble, and a Bonhams auction; there's something for everyone.

[Stephen W]

An even more up to date Press Release:

LIVE ACTION FROM GROUP B RALLY CARS AND STARS
at the International Historic Motorsport Show 2006.

A breathtaking display of Group B rally cars in action, many driven by the great names of rallying, will thrill spectators at the 3rd International Historic Motorsport Show at Stoneleigh Park on 24-26 February 2006.

The live action, arranged by the Slowly Sideways group, will take place on a purpose-built rally stage at the Show and will include both Group B and other genuine classic rally cars. Among the highlights are:

** Bjorn Waldegard (1979 FIA World Rally Champion) at the wheel of an ex-works 1980 Fiat 131 Abarth, an immediate forerunner of the Group B rally cars.

** Russell Brookes at the wheel of a genuine Group B Opel Manta 400 in Rothmans colours - a particularly powerful pairing, as it was a Manta 400 which took Russell to his second British Rally Championship victory in 1985. The actual car at the Show will be the one driven in 1985 by Pentti Airikkala, who will also be attending!

** Another Group B forerunner, an ex-works 1971 Alpine Renault A110, driven by Charles Reynolds, who was team manager for Ford in the late 1970s, before moving to Rothmans Porsche in the 1980s.

** A feast of other famous cars will be seen in full-blown action, including such Group B favourites as the Audi quattro A2, Porsche 911 SCRS, Lancia Rallye 037, Peugeot 205 Turbo 16, Renault 5 Maxi Turbo, Nissan 240 RS (the actual car sponsored in its day by pop group UB40), MG Metro 6R4 and Ford RS200. The youngest rally car on the stage will be the ex-Carlos Sainz 1992 Toyota Celica, in Repsol livery.

Stephen Davies of Slowly Sideways, the group behind the live rally action, says: "The cars are the real stars. Slowly Sideways is all about preservation of these genuine rally cars. We don't want them just sitting in museums; we aim to see them brought out of storage and used. Our display at the Historic Motorsport Show will be heavily supported by mechanics, many of whom were the cars' mechanics in their day. They are just as keen as anyone to see these cars in action."

[RS2000]

As this is a history forum, we need to start putting the record in order regarding Group B. There is a tendency that has built up over an extended period to use the term to describe some vehicles that are also referred to as "rally supercars" etc, for want of any other appropriate description.
Within a very short time of its introduction on 1.1.82. almost anything on 4 wheels that could not comply with the requirements of the similarly new Groups N and A was homologated into Group B. There is, I believe, a list on the FIA site of all homologations going back to at least the previous Appendix J's introduction in 1.1.66. Without refering to it, it may be worth recalling that Group B included such exotic cars as the Ford P100 Pickup and the MGB.
I dont know what history records as the most successful Group B car (ie. the one that won its class the most) but it is probably the Skoda 130 or the Citroen Visa (not least because Group B was not "killed off" by the FIA on 31.12.86. - the lowest capacity class continued).
The arbitrary removal of Group B didn't just hit works teams. Any number of amateur competitors were totally screwed, particularly in the 2000cc Group B class, where directly-transferred former Group 2 and 4 cars had been joined by "new" cars like the Manta i200 and the former Group 1 spec Escort RS2000. It was a body blow to International rallying at all levels and the beginning of the end for massed private entries, as newer, initially more expensive, Group N and A cars became necessary rather than one's regular club rally car .
We are today still seeing the knock-on effects in the UK because the MSA allowed Metro 6R4s etc to continue in National and lower events and are finally, for 2007, proposing a ban on them and other "never homologated" or highly modified rally cars. The consequent and on-going bitter row that has provoked may yet prove to be a milestone in the sport that eventually brings, at long last, an elected governing body. All because of Group B.
Remember, it wasn't just "supercars".

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by RS2000
As this is a history forum, we need to start putting the record in order regarding Group B. There is a tendency that has built up over an extended period to use the term to describe some vehicles that are also referred to as "rally supercars" etc, for want of any other appropriate description.

Indeed - and not just on rallies too. Many racing cars that had run in Groups 4 and 5 ended up as Group B after the introduction of Groups N, A, B and C - so in the early years of GpC there were still things like ex-Gp5 BMW M1s and the odd new-build Porsche 930 turning up at some races as Group Bs (ISTR at least one Ferrari 512BB ending up as a Group B, and the Porsche 961, as well - and wasn't the Ferrari F40 always intended to be Group B racer but nobody else came to play?)

[Stephen W]

The latest Press Release:

MEN AND MACHINES at the International Historic Motorsport Show 2006

THE MACHINES. . .

Visitors to the International Historic Motorsport Show at Stoneleigh Park on 24-26 February 2006 will have a rare chance to examine such exceptional specimens from the world of racing, rallying and motorcycling as:

** The Lotus 49 Formula 1 car used by Jim Clark to win the 1968 South African Grand Prix at Kyalami. It was to be Clark's final Grand Prix - he was on pole position, set the fastest lap, and won the race. The car was never updated to 49B spec and remains exactly as it was at Kyalami. Visit Crash.Net's Autocourse/Rallycourse/Motocourse stand for a close look at this historic racer.

** The Richard Burns East African Safari car, loaned to the Show by Prodrive. The car will form the centrepiece of a special stand dedicated to the memory of Burns, the first Englishman to win the World Rally Championship, who died so tragically last year. Other rally cars on show will include the Healey 3000 which Pat Moss used to win the Liege Rally, the ex-works Graham Hill RAC Rally Mini Cooper S - and, of course, the cars in action on the Group B rally stage!

** The only Ferrari motorcycle ever built - the Ferrari 900cc four-cylinder dohc motorcycle built by Kay Engineering with full written sanction from the Ferrari company as a tribute to Enzo Ferrari. Five years in the making, this unique one-off engineering masterpiece is totally unused. Engine casings are all cast magnesium, with cam-covers featuring the unmistakable prancing horse symbol cast into the end caps. The bodywork is made entirely of hand-beaten aluminium finished in Ferrari racing red. This machine will be displayed on the Phil Cotton's Motorcycles stand - and offered for sale at a non-negotiable price of £250,000. (Note to Editors: a picture of the bike is downloadable from www.historicmotorsportshow.com - click on Press Gallery).

THE MEN - AND WOMEN. . .

A host of motorsport stars will attend the Show, including Bjorn Waldegard, David Richards, Pentti Airikkala, Paddy Hopkirk, Russell Brookes and Rosemary Smith from the world of four wheels; plus Giacomo Agostini, Mick Grant, Phil Read and Steve Parrish from the world of two wheels.

The Show opens at 9.30am each day. Advance tickets cost £15 for one day or £28 for two days, with accompanied children under 16 free. On-the-day prices are £18 for one day or £30 for two days. Call the Ticket Hotline on 08450 70 68 70, or book online at www.historicmotorsportshow.com (using the Tickets Page).

[Tim Murray]

Originally posted by Michael Oliver

The car (Lotus 49/R4) which Jim Clark drove to victory in the 1968 South African GP is no more, it was burnt out in a fire at Rob Walker's garage in March 1968. Following its win in SA (100% GP win rate!) it was sold to Rob Walker and Seppi crashed it in practice for the Race of Champions. It was taken back to Rob's garage where, during the strip-down of the car, a spark from a drill ignited some fuel vapour and the whole place went up, including several other famous cars (ex-Seaman Delage, Lotus 18, IIRC). The car was totally burnt out.

However, Rob Walker retained the ownership rights to the car, which he passed on to his mechanic, who sold them to Tom Wheatcroft, who sold them on to someone else, and subsequently (e.g. in the 1990s) work began on the construction of a replica of the car, using as much original gear as possible, including early DFV and ZR gearbox. IIRC, the car first appeared at the Lotus 50th anniversary meeting at Brands Hatch in 1998 (where it was helpfully described by a well-known Autosport contributor who should know better as making its 'post-restoration debut'!). It was originally painted in Rob Walker colours but has since been re-done in the livery it sported in South Africa 68, as clearly a Jim Clark-liveried car is of more interest/excitement to potential customers (e.g. exhibitions etc.) than a Rob Walker one...

Under my understanding of the regulations relating to continuous history as an entity, this car cannot claim to be 49/R4 as it was burnt out and therefore was not in existence for some 30 years. To my knowledge, the people who built it do not pretend that it is the real thing, but there could very well come a time where, if this story about it being the actual 68 South Africa winner is repeated often enough, it could become true, if you see what I mean!!

Originally posted by Stephen W

The latest Press Release:

MEN AND MACHINES at the International Historic Motorsport Show 2006

THE MACHINES. . .

Visitors to the International Historic Motorsport Show at Stoneleigh Park on 24-26 February 2006 will have a rare chance to examine such exceptional specimens from the world of racing, rallying and motorcycling as:

** The Lotus 49 Formula 1 car used by Jim Clark to win the 1968 South African Grand Prix at Kyalami. It was to be Clark's final Grand Prix - he was on pole position, set the fastest lap, and won the race. The car was never updated to 49B spec and remains exactly as it was at Kyalami. Visit Crash.Net's Autocourse/Rallycourse/Motocourse stand for a close look at this historic racer.

[ranbo38]

and from an official press release no less. Is it a case of pr spin to entice prospective show goers or is it that maybe the fact it is a replica isn't being stressed strongly enough.