31 replies to this topic

[Menace]

Mclaren focus on reliability for new car.

Looks like Mclaren/Ron has finally realised that if Kimi is not given the reliability to win the WDC at Mclaren he is gone... no doubt Kimi has expressed in not so pleasent terms that loosing another battle for WDC due to reliability means he is out of the team! IMO of course!

If Mclaren build a reliable, and competitive car (I dont think Kimi needs the "fastest" car) we will all get to see a great battle in 2007 between Alonso and Kimi in the same machinery.

"Once the new car has been released, our primary focus will be durability testing, proving the software, the systems and the 11,500 car components, 90% of which have changed from MP4-20. Then we will start to look at phasing in upgrade packages onto the car.

[Clatter]

Looking at that quote I'd bet every team could make the exact same statement, and its what every team does whenever there is a new car etc.

Its just a sensationlist type headline and I dont read this as Mac doing anything vastly different than they have done any other season.

[kismet]

I had a quiet chuckle when something along the lines of "McLaren focus on reliability" popped up on newsnow.co.uk earlier today.

Admittedly my sense of humour is a bit twisted.

[Menace]

Originally posted by Clatter
Looking at that quote I'd bet every team could make the exact same statement, and its what every team does whenever there is a new car etc.

Its just a sensationlist type headline and I dont read this as Mac doing anything vastly different than they have done any other season.

Hasn't Ron publicly claimed many many times before, that they focus on speed over reliability? Maybe the headline was sensationalistic, but I hope it's true.

[Enkei]

Hope this one won't haunt them, which it probably will ofcourse..

[Clatter]

Originally posted by Menace


Hasn't Ron publicly claimed many many times before, that they focus on speed over reliability? Maybe the headline was sensationalistic, but I hope it's true.

What he actually said is that it is easier to make a fast car reliable, than a reliable car fast. That doesnt mean they are focused on speed over reliability, no one sets out to produce an unreliable car.

[Menace]

Originally posted by Clatter


What he actually said is that it is easier to make a fast car reliable, than a reliable car fast. That doesnt mean they are focused on speed over reliability, no one sets out to produce an unreliable car.

I got the perception Ron would rather make a fragile fast car, then reliable and consistent car? I think the issue is not as black and white as you put it. Reliability has been Mclaren's major problem since 2000. How much of it was due to Newey and his extremely compact designs, we will never know, but perhaps next season will shine more light to it. :

[Clatter]

Originally posted by Menace


I got the perception Ron would rather make a fragile fast car, then reliable and consistent car? I think the issue is not as black and white as you put it. Reliability has been Mclaren's major problem since 2000. How much of it was due to Newey and his extremely compact designs, we will never know, but perhaps next season will shine more light to it. :

I agree that overall the Mac's have for one reason or another been fragile, but not by design. I think the biggest problem over the last few seasons is that the breakdowns they have are rarely the same twice.

If a component keeps breaking its obvious where to concentrate your resource, but if it only breaks once what do you do?

[Mauseri]

10% parts will remain the same? It might help to finish an additional race.

[Platipus]

MClaren post the same trash each year about reliability!

and the only things growing actually to mclaren is the anger and mistrust of thier pilots!

[V10 Fireworks]

Toyota & Ferrari & Cosworth show it is possibly to control reliability. So what are McLaren doing?

[Naushad78]

Originally posted by Clatter
Looking at that quote I'd bet every team could make the exact same statement, and its what every team does whenever there is a new car etc.

Its just a sensationlist type headline and I dont read this as Mac doing anything vastly different than they have done any other season.

While in most cases the headling might be sensationalistic, I'm not so sure it's the case here. I think McLaren have suffered far too much over reliability problems and while they, along with other teams, do strive to perfect reliaiblity, I'm sure that McLaren are paying still more attention to that aspect.

[Big Block 8]

Originally posted by Menace


I got the perception Ron would rather make a fragile fast car, then reliable and consistent car? I think the issue is not as black and white as you put it. Reliability has been Mclaren's major problem since 2000. How much of it was due to Newey and his extremely compact designs, we will never know, but perhaps next season will shine more light to it. :

Reliability woes at McLaren go far beyond 2000. For long time now they have been simply incompetent when building cars, compared with their closest rivals.

Somehow I doubt that they have learned their lesson even today, when I heard their 05 post season excuse list.

[A Wheel Nut]

A bear is Catholic.

The Pope shits in the woods.

And McLaren focus on reliability.

[xype]

Originally posted by V10 Fireworks
Toyota & Ferrari & Cosworth show it is possibly to control reliability. So what are McLaren doing?

Heck, even Sauber can build reliable cars.

It just shows that there is no room for error, and McLaren only seems to get it right 95%* of the time.

*Figure pulled out my backside.

[BRG]

Originally posted by Big Block 8
For long time now they have been simply incompetent when building cars, compared with their closest rivals.

Remind me again which team won the most races in 2005? And which team is therefore simply incompetent?

I think McLaren need to concentrate on getting some more reliablity from their drivers.....

[d_view7]

Originally posted by BRG
Remind me again which team won the most races in 2005? And which team is therefore simply incompetent?

I think McLaren need to concentrate on getting some more reliablity from their drivers.....

Didnt you just say they won the most races in 2005? Surely the car wasnt driving without a driver.

[Big Block 8]

Originally posted by BRG
Remind me again which team won the most races in 2005? And which team is therefore simply incompetent?

I think McLaren need to concentrate on getting some more reliablity from their drivers.....

Fact is that once again McLaren failed to produce a car as reliable as their rival had. But do you think the drivers are in the end responsible for the reliability, or the lack of it?

[BRG]

Originally posted by Big Block 8
Fact is that once again McLaren failed to produce a car as reliable as their rival had.

Yet they won 10 GPs to Renault's 8 and to Ferrari's 1 (hollow joke) victory. So the car was dong its job. Yet there was no cigar in either WDC or WCC. So maybe if the drivers hadn't made mistakes, the team would have been better rewarded? Kimi blew the N'Ring victory, Juan-Pablo threw away chances - how many driver failures were there compared to car failures?

[Big Block 8]

And before that old "reliability vs. speed" crap comes out, a reminder about that the first version of the 2004 McLaren was obviously slow as a snail and still kept blowing up, is in order. All the odds are, that some of the guys down there on the McLaren engineering department simply can't in the end tell clockwise apart from counter clockwise.

Talking about this "engineering sophistication" all the while they just can't deliver is laughable. Let's see if they can do it in 2006, but after reading their statements after the last season, I seriously doubt it.

[HP]

Originally posted by Big Block 8


Reliability woes at McLaren go far beyond 2000. For long time now they have been simply incompetent when building cars, compared with their closest rivals.

Somehow I doubt that they have learned their lesson even today, when I heard their 05 post season excuse list.

It reminds me of the season where Ron announced before a race that they finally have gotten over the gremlins, just to have both, Mika and DC, to retire in the race with mechanical failure.

If Mclaren knew how to fix the reliability issues, they'd done it since ages. So I agree with you and stay sceptical. Mclaren's best bet would be to have a season like 98. They set the pace, win a healthy points advantage and can manage the season from there on. Like Ferrari and Renault did in some of the recent years. Should they be unable to do that, then I'd be surprised to see the McLarens being as reliable as those from their immediate competetors. In seasons where there were closer competition, McLaren invariably had more mechanical failures than others. The announcment is on focusing on reliability. But the issue is about habits. As soon as McLaren is in close competition I'd expect old habits to kick in quickly again. Which is, find a few tenths... and hope it doesn't break.

[Big Block 8]

Originally posted by BRG
Yet they won 10 GPs to Renault's 8 and to Ferrari's 1 (hollow joke) victory. So the car was dong its job. Yet there was no cigar in either WDC or WCC. So maybe if the drivers hadn't made mistakes, the team would have been better rewarded? Kimi blew the N'Ring victory, Juan-Pablo threw away chances - how many driver failures were there compared to car failures?

It will take a few more years before McLaren and Ferrari can be mentioned in the same sentence when quality engineering is mentioned. One swallow doesn't make a summer, especially when they were still crapped on by Renault in the end.

Regards the WDC, one flat spot in a tyre, which Alonso compensated by putting it into a wall in Canada, is nothing compared to the amount of points that were lost by McLaren's numerous mechanical flaws. Both Alonso and Kimi did a brilliant job during the season, the other was just let down by his team and that was what made their difference as big as it was. WCC loss might be accounted for Montoya, but still a team that can't provide a WDC contending car, doesn't in my opinion deserve a WCC either.

[HP]

Originally posted by BRG
Yet they won 10 GPs to Renault's 8 and to Ferrari's 1 (hollow joke) victory. So the car was dong its job. Yet there was no cigar in either WDC or WCC. So maybe if the drivers hadn't made mistakes, the team would have been better rewarded? Kimi blew the N'Ring victory, Juan-Pablo threw away chances - how many driver failures were there compared to car failures?

So McLaren hires the wrong drivers ;)

But actually for me that situation accuratly reflects McLarens racing philosophy. McLaren winning the most races, but fail to claim the WCC. That precisely pictures the McLaren philosophy. Striving to have the fastest car, but then not managing to gather enough points. In 2005, yes, JPM was a decisive factor for McLaren not winning the WCC. But IMO, the management jinxed it for themselves the moment they announced, the McLaren should be able to win the five or six remaining races coming 1-2, I knew for myself at that moment, they will blew it. And so it happened again. As usual pride comes before the fall. They exact details how they lost the needed points were just a secondary detail for me.

And just to rub in the point on pride, it was Ron Dennis, who announced proudly, that they are able to manage JPM just fine. How was that again? Pride comes before the fall.

[HP]

Oh, and remeber that Ross Brawn declared the F2005 the best F1 car Ferrari built ever. Pride just doesn't happen to McLaren alone.

[MikeTekRacing]

well it was the best because it was probably faster than F2004. It wasn't fast enough to be competitive under the new set of rules though, but this doesn't make it slower than the older cars.

[Spunout]

Yet they won 10 GPs to Renault's 8 and to Ferrari's 1 (hollow joke) victory. So the car was dong its job. Yet there was no cigar in either WDC or WCC. So maybe if the drivers hadn't made mistakes, the team would have been better rewarded? Kimi blew the N'Ring victory, Juan-Pablo threw away chances - how many driver failures were there compared to car failures?

Well, then again Alonso blew the Canada victory. And Fisi made lots of mistakes. Of course if you expect McLaren drivers to be perfect but allow Renault drivers to "keep" their mistakes, then you´d have McLaren winning the WCC. But amazingly FA would still win the WDC, despite of Canada and Hungary.

How is this possible? Simple: the decisive factor was how mechanical gremlins were divided between the drivers. At McLaren both KR and JPM had their share. At Renault all the problems happened to Fisi. Alonso enjoyed 100% reliability. That is far more important than small speed advantage.

I have pointed out before how hard it is to make up one 10-0 race, let alone two (Imola, Germany). That could mean you´d have to win 10 races before you´re even. Add McLaren NOT being the fastest car in every race (even between Imola and Brazil) and practise engine penalties...

[Big Block 8]

Originally posted by HP
It reminds me of the season where Ron announced before a race that they finally have gotten over the gremlins, just to have both, Mika and DC, to retire in the race with mechanical failure.

If Mclaren knew how to fix the reliability issues, they'd done it since ages. So I agree with you and stay sceptical. Mclaren's best bet would be to have a season like 98. They set the pace, win a healthy points advantage and can manage the season from there on. Like Ferrari and Renault did in some of the recent years. Should they be unable to do that, then I'd be surprised to see the McLarens being as reliable as those from their immediate competetors. In seasons where there were closer competition, McLaren invariably had more mechanical failures than others. The announcment is on focusing on reliability. But the issue is about habits. As soon as McLaren is in close competition I'd expect old habits to kick in quickly again. Which is, find a few tenths... and hope it doesn't break.

I'm with you on this one. Except I don't buy this "go for the few extra tenths and sacrifice reliability" mantra anymore. It just gives Ron Dennis a perfect marketing tool to fool people, that his cars are always "pushing the envelope", "fast", or if in championship contention, "the fastest", even though they are unreliable. And not "even though", but because they are unreliable! Talk about a fine way of explaining away incompetence into competence!

But as it is, for over a decade now the McLarens have been either fast or slow, but they have almost without exception been unreliable. The new mantra should thus be that a "McLaren is always unreliable, but not necessarily even fast".

[VresiBerba]

Originally posted by Big Block 8
It will take a few more years before McLaren and Ferrari can be mentioned in the same sentence when quality engineering is mentioned. One swallow doesn't make a summer, especially when they were still crapped on by Renault in the end.

Regards the WDC, one flat spot in a tyre, which Alonso compensated by putting it into a wall in Canada, is nothing compared to the amount of points that were lost by McLaren's numerous mechanical flaws. Both Alonso and Kimi did a brilliant job during the season, the other was just let down by his team and that was what made their difference as big as it was. WCC loss might be accounted for Montoya, but still a team that can't provide a WDC contending car, doesn't in my opinion deserve a WCC either.

So the team ruined it for Kimi and Montoya ruined it for the team? Fantastic reasoning

[HP]

Originally posted by VresiBerba

So the team ruined it for Kimi and Montoya ruined it for the team? Fantastic reasoning

In theory drivers are part of the team. And shockingly enough, team bosses do hire drivers with flaws ;)

[WACKO]

I've heard that before. Didn't they claim to do the same last year?

[Big Block 8]

Originally posted by VresiBerba

So the team ruined it for Kimi and Montoya ruined it for the team? Fantastic reasoning

It's pretty obvious, noting that I only said the loss of WDC could, meaning might, be credited for Montoya. But if for some reason your comment was supposed to be sarcastic, then:

If Kimi hadn't done any mistakes during the season, which by the way no driver has ever done, Alonso would have won the WDC anyway. So yes, the team ruined it for Kimi.

If Montoya would have driven as well as Kimi did, or even been only about half the times as slow as he was compared with Kimi, or made only about half of the iffy moves he did more than Kimi, McLaren would have won the WCC. So yes, it could be said that Montoya ruined it for the team.

[boostpressure]

Originally posted by Clatter
Looking at that quote I'd bet every team could make the exact same statement, and its what every team does whenever there is a new car etc.

Its just a sensationlist type headline and I dont read this as Mac doing anything vastly different than they have done any other season.

spot on. Its the same old usual pre-season crap we get from every team. We'll see what McLaren do come Bahrain.