44 replies to this topic

[bill moffat]

Many of you probably joined me at Silverstone in 1981 and got pretty excited when John Watson came through to win the British GP. You may have also got pretty animated watching some of his heroic performances, Detroit and Long Beach come to mind. Then other days would be Reutemannesque and lacklustre, "John Whatswrong?" as the Mclaren lads put it.

Post GP-life his media work seems to suggest he has an intolerant streak and some rather firmly held opinions. I don't know of any biographies of the man and, ever a reliable measure, he first arrives on Google as the 53rd entry if you type in his name. So what's he all about ?

[f1steveuk]

I've worked with Wattie quite a bit, especially with SKY. He was unusual being an ex driver, that he was quite interested in the history of his sport. Perry wasn't that bothered, niether was Damon. A wicked sense of humour, but a little prone to saying something, then thinking. Driving wise, not as enigmatic as "Lole", but your right, on his day very good, and on others, it was a bit like, "why did he turn up?" Te ex Brabham boys at FOM considered him a friend, but did sometimes doubt his 100% commitment in his latter years. I think he entered F1 in the wrong era, had he been able to (eg old enough), the late 60s early 70s, when you cold get away with picking a car up by the scruff, and wring it's neck, his results would have been better. As an example, he didn't get on with, nor succeed with the BT46B, because it needed a different way of driving. Sure he may have adapted, but Lauda was staright on it. What would have happened if he had driven for Toleman? or for that matter had a season in the Jordan 191??? Personally, I think thing were getting away from him technically.

[Paolo]

Originally posted by f1steveuk
, nor succeed with the BT46B, because it needed a different way of driving. Sure he may have adapted, but Lauda was staright on it..

I read an interview to the late Carlo Chiti in Autosprint, many years ago.
He admitted Watson's "fan car" was sabotaged at Anderstorp by the team itself (by creating holes in the sealing skirts) , to allow Lauda have an easy win.

[Lutz G]

Originally posted by Paolo


I read an interview to the late Carlo Chiti in Autosprint, many years ago.
He admitted Watson's "fan car" was sabotaged at Anderstorp by the team itself (by creating holes in the sealing skirts) , to allow Lauda have an easy win.

Is this 100 percent true???

Never heard that one before!

Here a few thoughts about Wattie I posted already in another thread....

(...)

Don't forget Detroit 82. Winning from 17. on the grid! I got both races on video tape - superb stuff...

1982 was his year. He had no turbo-power - but was leading the championship after a few races..... but I'm asking myself even today: What really happened during the second half of the season? Wattie managed after the brilliant first half not to score a single point in a couple of races. If he would have had only 2 more runner up finishes in the points he would have easily become world champion. And his bad luck strikes again at Hockenheim. If my memory serves me well he was at 3rd (or 4th) position when only a few laps to go his suspension collapsed. Without this dnf he would have had the same score as Rosberg in the end. (but one win more)

(...)

About Brands Hatch 1982:

Was it really bad luck or did he tried just too hard? If my memory serves me well he went to the left on the green - that was ok - but after that perhaps he tried too hard to get back to the points. Sometimes you have just to wait and see (like Lauda in Estoril 84). Could it be that Watson's weakest point was his mental side? I mean sometimes he drove like a World Champion (Detroit, Long Beach) and sometimes he was just a backmarker. Marc Surer wrote about him: "He was sort of strange - sometimes everybody thought he's the next Champion the other day he drove like my grandma".

And about the poor "google rating":

On www.google.de he is not so "far behind"... (pos 1 of 25.700.000 );)

http://www.geocities...59/watson2.html

Sorry folks, only in German language but I'll translate it to English....


Lutz

[Keir]

John was known to smile every now and again, with "Lole", it was usually gas !!!

[bill moffat]

Now I wouldn't have dreamt of "bumping" this thread but the initial indifference seemed to neatly reflect the lack of interest that Wattie generates these days...

[angst]

Originally posted by bill moffat
Now I wouldn't have dreamt of "bumping" this thread but the initial indifference seemed to neatly reflect the lack of interest that Wattie generates these days...

He seemed always to generate a lack of interest throughout his career, for some reason. He certainly never gained the support that Hunt or Mansell or Hill did (or that Button is currently). A shame really, because I think he was very, very talented - and a real racer.

1976 was a good year for him, and one would have expected him to have gone on to great things from there. Perhaps he would if the Brabham-Alfa BT45B didn't have the fuel pick-up problems,and other general maladies that cost him a number of potential wins.

Part of his problem stemmed (IMO) from having the very politcal Niki Lauda as his teammate,as well as having the young Alain Prost aongside him at possibly his lowest ebb - I'm sure he was expecting far more from his time at McLaren than the M28 and M29.

Another, like Amon and Jarier, that was just unlucky at just the wrong time?

[ensign14]

Badly advised at the end of '83, I guess, when he held out for a better contract just as Prost was being sacked...after all, he beat Lauda in both '82 and '83...

(BTW. whilst googling on Wattie I found this - perhaps the most useless stat in the entire history of statistics? At least it puts Peter Charles at number 1...)

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by ensign14

Badly advised at the end of '83, I guess, when he held out for a better contract just as Prost was being sacked...

As I remember, he was doing his own negotiating at the time - asking for around GBP 500k a year from Lotus for 1984 - before he was effectively 'Prosted', as you say, by the subsequent actions of Renault...

Wattie only lives about 2 kms from me, and so I'll happily pop over and ask him some of the questions which arise here on this thread, provided circumstances allow.

[Don Speekingleesh]

Originally posted by angst


He seemed always to generate a lack of interest throughout his career, for some reason. He certainly never gained the support that Hunt or Mansell or Hill did (or that Button is currently).

Not English enough.

[Eric McLoughlin]

That did cross my mind. Not being English may have lessened the media "hype" that otherwise might have surrounded him in the UK. As it was, I always get the impression that Wattie was/is a fairly unassumiing type of guy with no real desire to "perform" for the media, except when driving or working professionally as a comentator.

[Gerald Swan]

Re the Carlo Chiti comment, in the book "Sinfonia Ruggente" he also claims Bernie Ecclestone deliberately sabotaged the gears on the Brabham-Alfa of Carlos Reutemann in Austria to punish Reutemann for signing with Ferrari.

Of course Ecclestone was quite happy for a sabotaged gearbox to possibly cause a major accident resulting in loss of life .

Has anyone read and enjoyed "Sinfonia Ruggente"? I found it almost totally unreadable due to the clunky English translation and the sycophantic style, (maybe it lost a lot in translation), nice pictures though and I got it quite cheaply on eBay .

Gerald.

www.lolaheritage.co.uk

[stevewf1]

A bit off topic...

I'm going from memory here, but Watson used to have a beard. I remember reading that when he drove for Roger Penske in 1976, Penske told him that if he won, the beard had to come off. He won and goodbye beard. He never grew it back after that?

(Facial hair does not fit Penske's corporate image).

[Eric McLoughlin]

That is true. Watson won the 1976 Austrian GP and lost his beard as a result. It was also the only F1 GP ever won by Penske.

[Lutz G]

Originally posted by Gerald Swan
Re the Carlo Chiti comment, in the book "Sinfonia Ruggente" he also claims Bernie Ecclestone deliberately sabotaged the gears on the Brabham-Alfa of Carlos Reutemann in Austria to punish Reutemann for signing with Ferrari.

Of course Ecclestone was quite happy for a sabotaged gearbox to possibly cause a major accident resulting in loss of life .

Perhaps a little bit "too much sabotage" to be true?

Again: Can anybody confirm the 1978 fancar sabotage? Twin Window? Feel free to ask Wattie about...

Originally posted by Twin Window

Wattie only lives about 2 kms from me, and so I'll happily pop over and ask him some of the questions which arise here on this thread, provided circumstances allow.

Please tell him about his German Google "Pole Position" (my Watson Story)...

http://www.geocities...59/watson2.html

...and that we also loved his fantastic "Motorsport aktuell" (Swiss Mag) column in 1978, and of course his superb commentary during the eurosport-f1-days! It would be great if he would be back (msa columnist / f1 or (better) GPMASTERS commentary ) one day!

http://www.geocities...9/samplese.html

(many wattie audio clips)

Perhaps you can ask Wattie also about the German GP 1975 (from the F1 77 Mod Thread) :

"How was the handling of the good old Lotus 72 compared to the Surtees? Was it difficult for him to get used to the legendary JPS? I mean especially in the "Green Hell" - not an easy track... Was he testing the car before on another track?"


Thanks!


Lutz

[FredF1]

Another bit from memory.


IIRC, during his commentating on the 1994 season he was asked by his co-commentator about Michele Alboreto. At the time, Alboreto was getting a lot of stick about his 'blocking' of front runners - shades of Rene Arnoux and all that. Anyways, Wattie said something like I don't know if I could be trusted to give a fair comment about Alboreto as he cost me the championship in 1982.

[bill moffat]

Don't forget Silverstone '81 was quite a big deal, us Brits had been deprived of a win since James Hunt in Japan at the end of '77 and it was a popular and well received victory. I guess it acted as a springboard for his '82 campaign which really could (I won't extend that to "should") have culminated in him being WDC.

Just to make us all feel incredibly old, dare I remind you that Wattie gets his Bus Pass this May....

[ensign14]

Originally posted by FredF1
Anyways, Wattie said something like I don't know if I could be trusted to give a fair comment about Alboreto as he cost me the championship in 1982.

I am guessing it was tongue in cheek - Wattie had to win at Caesar's Palace to have a chance at winning the title and finished second behind Michele. Had Alboreto crashed into Rosberg whilst lapping him JW would have been Champ.

[canon1753]

One of those what ifs of history is: If Watson signed for McLaren in 1984, would he have beat Niki to the '84 title?

I also think it was interesting that John was given Niki's ride at Brands in 1985 when Niki sprained his wrist and couldn't race. Ron and John obviously let bygones be bygones.

[JetBoomF1]

John Watson wasnt bad for his time.Nice guy to one of the first drivers I met who was actually nice to me.

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by canon1753

I also think it was interesting that John was given Niki's ride at Brands in 1985 when Niki sprained his wrist and couldn't race. Ron and John obviously let bygones be bygones.

I don't think they ever fell out...

Knowing he was 'out of contract' at McLarens come the end of 1983, Wattie rightly began sniffing out employment possibilities for the forthcoming year. Lotus was looking favourite, and the very fact that there was interest elsewhere naturally strengthened his negotiating stance with McLaren.

What nobody could foresee, however, was that Prost would be sacked a day or so after the final race of 1983...

If Wattie had received a cast-iron offer from Lotus before that moment, he would have been in a strong bargaining position with Ron Dennis. Unfortunately for him, he was asking seriously big money from Lotus, and they were baulking. As soon as Prost was *released* the proverbial rug was pulled from under his feet; Dennis had the best driver in the world (as he was already regarded) in his lap for mere peanuts.

Simple business, really; so how could either part harbour a grudge? John was, more than anything, plain unlucky...

My three favourite pics I took of 'yer man';

[man]

I just have to say I love his commentary style. Perfect.

He once said he knew his time as a GP driver was at an end during a qualifying session for the 85 Grand Prix of Europe when he saw a Lotus in his mirrors "doing things i had never even thought about let alone trying to execute".

[Keir]

I liked Watson with the beard !!

[Slyder]

Same here.

I only know Watson by his commentary that i occasionally heard when ABC sports plugged in the Digital feed in the F1 races, and now in A1GP. He's quite a great commentator and he and Ben Edwards surely make for a great team.

Watson the driver, only seen the F1 reviews, and yeah the lad tended to lag a bit, but his wins at Detroit and Long Beach as well as the British GP were incredible feats, very impressive. The guy managed to pass more cars than most modern F1 drivers do in their entire careers.

[Lutz G]

Originally posted by Slyder
Same here.

I only know Watson by his commentary that i occasionally heard when ABC sports plugged in the Digital feed in the F1 races, and now in A1GP. He's quite a great commentator and he and Ben Edwards surely make for a great team.

Here's a magic moment: Watson about the great pass of J.Villeneuve in the Parabolica Estoril 96



(more wattie commentary clips at www.geocities.com/rainforest/8059/samplese.html )

BTW: Perhaps the "good old days" are nowadays already in the 90s (slicks, and stuff) ?;)

@Twin Window

Great shots!

Lutz

[3DVince]

Well, I use to consider Watson is probably the most unlucky and as such, forgotten hero of the 1977 season. He was often front row besides Mario Andretti, and he never went closer to a win than in Dijon, running out of fuel in the last lap. I just loved that gorgeous BT45B hewas driving at that time.

Now, about the 1982 season, we should keep in mind that I don't think he would've been able to struggle for the title if both Ferrari drivers (Villeneuve and Pironi) had not been killed or badly injured in accidents...but this also applies to the final world champion that very year; Keke Rosberg. He owns a rather particular record: when he became world champion, he had won only one race in his whole career !!!

Now about John Watson, if I remember well, I read he had some rather sad times in his private life, and that may explain a few things about his unconstant motivation; I read somewhere that he's been the boyfriend of the girl who formerly was with Ronnie Peterson, and that she commited suicide cos she just couldn't recover from Ronnie's death... I don't know if it's true, maybe someone could confirm? anyway I think it may have affected him if it is.

[Huw Jadvantich]

That is true, but it was well after Wattie's competitive career.

[Lutz G]

Originally posted by bill moffat
Many of you probably joined me at Silverstone in 1981 and got pretty excited when John Watson came through to win the British GP. You may have also got pretty animated watching some of his heroic performances, Detroit and Long Beach come to mind. Then other days would be Reutemannesque and lacklustre, "John Whatswrong?" as the Mclaren lads put it.

Post GP-life his media work seems to suggest he has an intolerant streak and some rather firmly held opinions. I don't know of any biographies of the man and, ever a reliable measure, he first arrives on Google as the 53rd entry if you type in his name. So what's he all about ?

I hope the poor Google (.com) rating will improve now ;)

The English translation of my Watson Story is online now:

http://home.tiscali....2/watson2e.html

I would very much appreciate any comments, (praise or criticism)

Note: I added some pics (Watson Gallery) of the fantastic Carsten Meurer 79 Watson Bell replica helmet. So have a look again at my pages, even if you know the (German language) wattie story already...

Originally posted by Twin Window
Wattie only lives about 2 kms from me, and so I'll happily pop over and ask him some of the questions which arise here on this thread, provided circumstances allow.

I'm pretty sure that Wattie is also surfing the web - so I would very much appreciate If you (or someone else ;) ) could forward the above URL to him.

BTW: Did you ask him a few of the above questions already?

Lutz

[MCS]

Does anybody have a picture of John in the works Formula Two Chevron from 1972 that they could share?

[Rob Ryder]

Originally posted by MCS
Does anybody have a picture of John in the works Formula Two Chevron from 1972 that they could share?

The only pic I could find is from 'Motor Sport' at the Rothmans 50000... Chevron B20
© Motor Sport Magazine (LAT?)

[Spaceframe]

Originally posted by Eric McLoughlin
That is true. Watson won the 1976 Austrian GP and lost his beard as a result. It was also the only F1 GP ever won by Penske.

I seem to remember that not only did Watson's contract with Penske required Watson to shave off his beard, when Penske won their first GP - it also required Penske to grow a beard, when GP win number two was achieved!

btw - Watson's greatest F1 race may have been the final outing in the Cossie-MP4/1C, the 1983 Dutch GP, when he got on the podium for third place - afterwards Derek Warwick told journalists that Watson went past like he had the turbo, and Warwick's Toleman was powered by an atmospheric

Edit: It appears I forgot the point: Somehow I can't see Reutemann driving a seriously underpowered car at the limit of its capability like Watson did that day at Zandvoort. Reutemann appeared to loose interest, when the car wasn't near the front after practice, whereas Watson drove some of his best races from lowly grid positions.

[David M. Kane]

Not being English didn't hurt Eddie Irvine!

I too think he was unlucky, also he wasn't steely enough in the head. Carlos had the same problem. Lauda like Schumacher would almost do anything to win (except Fuji).

To me it shows how complex it is to be consistently effective in a F1 car. Does anyone really think that the JPM who recently left McLaren is the same kid he was just 2 seasons ago?


Complex...

[380W]

Sorry, but I can´t understand the point............Watson the Irish Reutemann why?. Both of them were great drivers (I think better that today´s aseptic boys), but were enough unlucky and failed to win a World Championship. But I think that is not a shame for them, it must be a honour. I hate that sort of comparations.

[Allen Brown]

I don't think it was Watson's Irishness per se that reduced his connection with British fans but that he raced in Northern Ireland for much of his early career. He was slogging a 1600cc Brabham and a F2 Lola round Kirkistown and Bishopscourt rather than doing the British F3 or Atlantic series which would have made his name more familiar to English fans. From there he went into F2 with an Irish team before getting his first F1 drives, again for an Irish car owner.

Irvine's path to F1 was quite different.

Allen

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by MCS

Does anybody have a picture of John in the works Formula Two Chevron from 1972 that they could share?

Here's the only one I took; from the old bridge at Oulton Park as the cars went out for the September 1972 John Player F2 meeting...




A few more I took of Wattie over the years.

GP debut at the1973 British GP...




Swapping notes with Mike Hailwood after practice for the 1974 British GP at Brands...




Brands tyre tests, 1980...




1980 British GP...




Launch of the MP4 in 1981...




Las Vegas, 1981...

[Coogar]

Allen,
I was going to say the same thing. In Irish terms (North and South), Wattie was a first. Previously, nobody had moved from the local - but very competitive - club scene into International Formula anything ! The leap was just too great.
Then along came Gerry Kinnane and his newly acquired ex-works Lotus 48s and gave Wattie the chance to shine at Thruxton , which he did. I can't help thinking that, had this not happened, Wattie might have had to work a lot harder to make the move across the Irish Sea - and that goes for the many who followed him.....
Subsequently, I've always felt that perhaps John was too nice a guy to become champion - he won't thank me for saying this - but he was/is a gentleman, and that means doiing it right all the way, no spurious qualifying 'accidents', no unnecessary contact (Long Beach, Detroit, many were passed, none were hit) and a wonderful lack of hype. Wouldn't really square with todays way of doing things.........
More to the point now, John still has time for those who were about when he drove Lola, Brabham, Crossle and even the Sprite at Kirkistown and Bishopscourt......
More than can be said for others who have reached the higher echclons.....

[MonzaDriver]

Originally posted by David M. Kane
Not being English didn't hurt Eddie Irvine!

I too think he was unlucky, also he wasn't steely enough in the head. Carlos had the same problem. Lauda like Schumacher would almost do anything to win (except Fuji).

To me it shows how complex it is to be consistently effective in a F1 car. Does anyone really think that the JPM who recently left McLaren is the same kid he was just 2 seasons ago?


Complex...

My opinion too, simple as that. The champions are always more reliable in their performances.
Even if the conditions are not easy for them. And to me it's because they use the brain better than the others in a F1 car during the strain of a whole GP.
Surely not an easy result to achieve.

MonzaDriver

[Mohican]

Hmmm...no mention here that Watson's career was really washed up already at the end of 1978, following his having been a team "mate" of Niki Lauda for a year.

It was only due to Ronnie Peterson's death that McLaren took him on for 1979. Granted the McLaren cars of 1979-80 were terrible, and granted that Ronnie would also have been very underwhelmed by them.

But Ronnie would never have been blown off by a French rookie straight out of Formula 3...

[BRG]

Originally posted by Mohican
But Ronnie would never have been blown off by a French rookie straight out of Formula 3...

Given that the rookie was to be one of the finest GP drivers of all time and that Watson in fact beat him, I suspect that Ronnie would have done no better. And at least Watson won in a car that had no real business winning a GP, which Ronnie never really managed.

[MCS]

Originally posted by Twin Window
A few more I took of Wattie over the years.

Fabulous pictures, Twinny! Thanks.

[David M. Kane]

I would describe both of them as moody artists. When on, really, really good...

[MCS]

Does anybody know when Watson painted the red "lines" on his silver helmet?

Was it when he got the Chevron works F2 ride, or before?

[Mohican]

Originally posted by BRG
Given that the rookie was to be one of the finest GP drivers of all time and that Watson in fact beat him, I suspect that Ronnie would have done no better. And at least Watson won in a car that had no real business winning a GP, which Ronnie never really managed.

Regardless of what Prost would go on to achieve later, Ronnie would of course have beaten him in his rookie year hands down - the same way Ronnie did with Lauda at March in 1972.

Of course Ronnie won with cars "that had no real business winning a GP" - several times, in fact. Three times in 1974 with a Lotus 72 (in its fifth season of racing), and once with a March 761 in 1976.

Watson was a good driver, but no more. Simply not in Ronnie's league - and everybody knew it at the time.

[David M. Kane]

The March 761 was a decent car with a very good aero package for the time, thus the win at Monza.

[BRG]

Originally posted by Mohican
Watson was a good driver, but no more. Simply not in Ronnie's league - and everybody knew it at the time.

Ah, if only Wattie were dead, everyone would be much kinder to him.

He is one of the more under-rated drivers IMO. Drives like Detroit in 1982 and Long Beach in 1983 were classics. If it had been Senna or Villeneuve at the wheel, those drives would be legendary.