17 replies to this topic

[antonvrs]

Would any of you care to comment on the failure of Fritz Kroymann's(sp?) 2 or 3 year old Ferrari F1 at the '04 Monterey historics?
Photos showed the front third of the car sheared off cleanly at a bulkhead roughly at the driver's knees and I was amazed at the lack of discussion about this failure. Is the car designed to separate this way?
Is this considered to be a safety factor? Or is it an indication that these are disposable chassis to be used for one season and then tossed?
Apparently this car was maintained/prepared by Ferrari's client service department at considerable cost to the client.
Anton

[philippe charuest]

yes theres not much information about ageing /fatigue of the carbone fiber. its maybe why the aeronautic industry dont use it much for civilian airplane even if its relatively cheap now

[Bonde]

In reply to the thread title: Never ( ).

This rant aside, wasn't the Ferrari chassis in question the one in which Schumichael broke his leg at Silverstone - and subsequently 'repaired'.

Carbon fibre chassis generally have excellent fatigue resistance, but impact damage causing unseen delamination is an issue, and repair can only be done by absolute experts with the right equipment and test facilities. Damage to metallic chassis is usually much more obvious.

[antonvrs]

Wouldn't Ferrari's "Servizio Clienti" qualify as "absolute experts with the right equipment and test facilities"?
If not, then who?
Anton

[doc knutsen]

The failure of the Ferrari chassis is a huge worry, but it seems to have gone almost unnoticed in the media. Was there ever any reports published on why it went wrong? Had the tub been crashed previously? Was there ever anything official from the Scuderia?

[Bonde]

I think I read somewhere that the chassis in question was the one that Schuey had damaged at Silverstone. The reason, I think regretably, the incident got so little press coverage at the time was that the driver was uninjured.

[petefenelon]

Thread that evolved at the time:

http://forums.autosp...&threadid=72166

(Stuart - any chance of a merger?)

[kayemod]

Originally posted by antonvrs
Wouldn't Ferrari's "Servizio Clienti" qualify as "absolute experts with the right equipment and test facilities"?
If not, then who?
Anton

They certainly ought to be 'absolute experts', but who knows? That failure on a fairly recent F1 Ferrari should have caused much more of a stir than it appears to have done. I'm not going to form an opinion based on a few possibly unrepresentative examples, but some of the worst GRP mouldings I've ever seen were Italian produced body parts on Autodelta Alfa sports racers, and I've also seen moulded GRP and composite work on recent roadgoing Ferraris that wouldn't have passed a quality check at TVR, or going back a few years Reliant, neither of who have ever been bywords for manufacturing excellence. The ever increasing use of composites on race cars could be a long term problem, we really don't know enough about how the material will stand up to inadequate manufacturing standards, non-expert crash repairs and even simple ageing. As somone else has pointed out, the aircraft industry is having a few qualms about the use of composites outside the strictly regulated airline business. There's a lot we don't know about the stuff, and only time will tell.

[f1steveuk]

the description of the failure sounds vaguely similar to that of Schumacher's at Silverstone. Carbon is I believe only REALLY strong in one plane, which may answer a question or two

[Macca]

Lot of discussion about the Kroymans car here:

http://www.ferrarich...ead.php?t=27960

Some of the pictures have gone though.


Paul M

[doc knutsen]

Thanks for providing a link to the Kroymans thread. No official information, though...except that Ferrari were examining the tub failure and that it was a big worry (as it bl***y well ought to be!!)
....but then, nothing. Was there ever an official report published by the Scuderia? What is the FIA doing, with all their crash testing requirements having to be passed, an total failure like this should never happen. Has the FIA said anything?
I *really* would like to know what caused this total failure of a modern c/f "safety capsule".

[RTH]

Originally posted by f1steveuk
the description of the failure sounds vaguely similar to that of Schumacher's at Silverstone. Carbon is I believe only REALLY strong in one plane, which may answer a question or two

That is very true, this is why you need safety regulations , the designers only ever make things for speed .

[doc knutsen]

That is being rather unkind to those who design racing cars. Safety for the driver is a main design element, cannot think of any race car designer who would be indifferent or unconcerned about a driver being seriously injured or worse in one of the cars he was responsible for.
Incidentally, a carbon fibre is very strong in tension. So is a piece of string. By utilizing carbon weave, and several layers laid in different directions, the overall strength of the laminate will be more than adequate for its designed load + the safety margin.
But I would still like to know what on Earth happened to that Ferrari tub.

[antonvrs]

Me too.
Anton

[f1steveuk]

I've yet to see the pictures, but it sounds severe

[2F-001]

There are (or at least were) some pics here, Steve:
http://www.thoughtba...om/hugh//crash/
I think I saw other more detailed ones too, but don't recall where.

[philippe7]

Pictures can be found on this bulletin board thread

http://tbk.fameflame...pic.php?t=23518

..and there's another thread linked to it in the second post

I think the webmaster of this site posts on TNF now and then....

[f1steveuk]

Originally posted by 2F-001
There are (or at least were) some pics here, Steve:
http://www.thoughtba...om/hugh//crash/
I think I saw other more detailed ones too, but don't recall where.

Thank you, I think, scary! Now I have seen it, identical (even to the injury almost) This tub had failed in the same place as Schumacher's, bang on the bulkhead, the reallt scary thing is how the failure has followed the bulkhead, almost as if that is where the was a manufactured joint. The next question is, did he hit head on, or struck from the side, I think I can work it out, but it would be nice to have it confirmed. Funny, my love of aluminium is growing!!!