30 replies to this topic

[275 GTB-4]

Hello to anyone in the UK listening at the moment, I have just watched the long awaited Hillclimb episode of Heartbeat. Certainly was some interesting cars featured (their performance a tad staged) although the fella in the MkI Escort gave it some welly .

Q: Does anyone know if the Rally Mini DJB-93B was a works car ??

Q: Where is the Hillclimb course featured and does it have a significant history ??

(Ohhh...Cheers)

[Catalina Park]

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4
Q: Does anyone know if the Rally Mini DJB-93B was a works car ??

DJB93B was a works car, registered December 1964. Written off in the 1966 London rally.

[Stephen W]

When did it go out in the UK?

[RS2000]

DJB93B (Tony Fall) before the start of the 1966 Gulf London Rally at the Excellsior Hotel, Heathrow Airport.
The 1965 RAC Rally winning car (Rauno Aaltonen) carried the same registration (and a roof light etc. but there was no evidence of this on the 66-spec car pictured........)

[275 GTB-4]

Marvellous stuff fellas....based on the written-off in the London Rally statement, the Mini featured must be a damn fine replica

[Mistron]

Wasn't this the car restored by the Owner of Mini Machine in Darlington in the early 90s?

(I'd need a trip to the loft to dig out a magazine which featured the car to confirm this though).

[MCS]

Originally posted by Stephen W
When did it go out in the UK?

The latest series finished last Sunday here in the UK, I'm reliably informed.

It's filmed in North Yorkshire and around Whitby I believe - maybe there's a clue as to the likely venue...

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by Mistron
Wasn't this the car restored by the Owner of Mini Machine in Darlington in the early 90s?

(I'd need a trip to the loft to dig out a magazine which featured the car to confirm this though).

so light a candle and watch your step on the ladder.....we can wait ;)

(I'll just sit here defiantly listening to Rock and Roll Parts 1&2 from Gary Glitter.....what a pity this poor excuse for a hooman bean trangressed.....the music wern't three bad )

[RAP]

Originally posted by Stephen W
When did it go out in the UK?

I seem to recall seeing this some years ago, although I might be thinking of an entirely different tv series. If I'm right it could have been Olivers Mount?
RAP

[frogeye59]

A yahoo search has revealed that it was an episode of series 13 (2004) "Muck and Brass" but can't find any photos or location details.

My guess would be it was filmed at Harewood Hill Climb in Yorkshire as ITV are already on the Harewood Estate with the Emmerdale Set/Village

Alternatively, if the course was very steep, perhaps they closed "Rosedale Chimney" which is only a stones throw from Goathland the Heartbeat Village.

My recollection of Olivers Mount is that its a circuit not a hill climb.

Regards

David

[David Birchall]

The episode aired here (Vancouver area) within the last few months. I thought they would have got a wider selection of hillclimb cars-England would seem to be loaded with them. The rather 'ropey' SS100 was a nice touch though.

[frogeye59]

Might this be the ropey SS100......



Still cant find anything on venue or any proper competition cars used

David

[RS2000]

Olivers Mount is primarily a bike circuit but has also been used as a hill climb and a rally stage (including the RAC Rally as recently as 1982).

[RS2000]

If it helps with identification, this is Olivers Mount (after the RAC Rally had spread a bit of mud around). Harewood has no large trees near the track (just small ones and bushes near the bottom hairpin).

[Mark A]

DJB 93B was owned by Mini Machine in Darlington and rallied and raced by various people over a number of years.

It was bought by Phil Short who basically started from scratch and gave it a perfect rebuilt to the correct spec (at great cost).

Also, just because the 'Works Mini's' book says written off, that isn't necesarilty the case as a number of vehicles were sold off.


And yes it is the Phil Short, ex- Hannu Mikkola & David Llewellyn co-driver(amongst others), then team manager at Toyota, Mitsubishi and now with the Ford WRC team.


DJB has been on Heartbeat a couple of times.

[RS2000]

What is the "correct" spec? You have above the photo of that number's last appearance on a works car (actually it may not have been strictly "works" by then and may have been prepared by Special Tuning rather than Comps Dept for the 66 Scottish and 66 Gulf). That spec is very different from its last appearance in 65, under the previous Appendix J. That also assumes it wasn't re-shelled earlier or after the 65 RAC win.
Some race car provenance is dubious even where a tube frame chassis or monocoque is involved. I can never accept that a re-shelled unitary construction car can be the "original". Cortinas, Escorts, Minis many "famous" registrations are known to have appeared on several shells but the changes are not documented, sometimes simply because they weren't properly recorded, sometimes to avoid any "licencing problems" (but not necessarily illegal up to about 1979/80 and compulsory VIN plates).

So is the car carrying DJB93B today (in 65 RAC spec?) "original" and does it have the first shell it was registered with at the end of 64?
Is Rothmans Escort DKP191T that is around today the "original" car that was "new" for the 81 Acropolis, "new" for the 81 1000 Lakes and "new" for the 81 San Remo and was later the black and white R.E.D. car in 82?
Is Lotus Cortina KPU381C the "original" much used works and later private car?
Is Escort LVX942J the "original"? We know that isn't because it was known to have been re-shelled whilst still in use by Roger Clark in 72 (and had previously been re-shelled into "Esso Blue" from previous works use??).

Nice replicas, using some original fittings: shame about the wholly "original" tags??

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by frogeye59
A yahoo search has revealed that it was an episode of series 13 (2004) "Muck and Brass" but can't find any photos or location details.

My guess would be it was filmed at Harewood Hill Climb in Yorkshire as ITV are already on the Harewood Estate with the Emmerdale Set/Village

Alternatively, if the course was very steep, perhaps they closed "Rosedale Chimney" which is only a stones throw from Goathland the Heartbeat Village.

My recollection of Olivers Mount is that its a circuit not a hill climb.

Regards

David

Thats the name of the episode....and it definately was at a purpose built hillclimb

The ropey SS100 was touted as a protoype...so muggins thought he would make a fortune from the sale of a car he found in a barn....final scene is of the SS slowly rolling backward down the track...fade to black.

There was also an Elan S2 and D Type (I think)...I will play the tape again sometime....unfortunately, the Ashfordly Police investigation interrupted a great deal of the Motor Racing !!!

[RAP]

My recollection of Olivers Mount is that its a circuit not a hill climb.

Whilst primarily a motor cycle racing circuit (too narrow for cars), Olivers Mount is used for two hill climbs per year by the Auto 66 Club and this year the VSCC also ran an event there.
RAP

[Stephen W]

Originally posted by Mark A
DJB 93B was owned by Mini Machine in Darlington and rallied and raced by various people over a number of years.

It was bought by Phil Short who basically started from scratch and gave it a perfect rebuilt to the correct spec (at great cost).

Also, just because the 'Works Mini's' book says written off, that isn't necesarilty the case as a number of vehicles were sold off.


And yes it is the Phil Short, ex- Hannu Mikkola & David Llewellyn co-driver(amongst others), then team manager at Toyota, Mitsubishi and now with the Ford WRC team.


DJB has been on Heartbeat a couple of times.

DJB still reside's in Phil's garage and has a genuine short wheel base Audi Quattro Sport for company!

Phil has now fully restored DJB back to Rally Spec as he did sprint and hillclimb it for a while. However he was finding the old girl less & less competetive and did not want to modernise her. So he bought an ex-Mini Miglia Mini and runs that in the Up to 1300cc Modified Production classes in sprints and hillclimbs when his rallying commitments with Malcolm Wilson's team permit.

[275 GTB-4]

Forums: gotta luv em Cheers guys and gals

[RS2000]

Originally posted by Stephen W

However he was finding the old girl less & less competetive and did not want to modernise her.

If a truly representative 65 works rally engine spec, more a case of never competitive at all against typical opposition in roadgoing class, leave alone modprod? To suggest otherwise would be to denigrate the very high standards of the (long neglected by too many "prestige" hill climb organisers) roadgoing classes. Of course, as shown above, BMC had already modernised "her" in 1966!
As a final twist of coincidence, Phil Short was the "Route Co-ordinator" (de facto Clerk of the Course in all but name) of the 1982 RAC Rally that used Oliver's Mount as its final special stage.

[Stephen W]

Originally posted by RS2000


If a truly representative 65 works rally engine spec, more a case of never competitive at all against typical opposition in roadgoing class, leave alone modprod? To suggest otherwise would be to denigrate the very high standards of the (long neglected by too many "prestige" hill climb organisers) roadgoing classes. Of course, as shown above, BMC had already modernised "her" in 1966!
As a final twist of coincidence, Phil Short was the "Route Co-ordinator" (de facto Clerk of the Course in all but name) of the 1982 RAC Rally that used Oliver's Mount as its final special stage.

Phil Short ran DJB in the Up to 1300 Road Going class. His efforts would usually be rewarded with seconds, thirds or worse. However when there was a flood of highly modified 205s he realised that it was time to retire the old girl.

[Mark A]

Originally posted by RS2000
What is the "correct" spec? You have above the photo of that number's last appearance on a works car (actually it may not have been strictly "works" by then and may have been prepared by Special Tuning rather than Comps Dept for the 66 Scottish and 66 Gulf). That spec is very different from its last appearance in 65, under the previous Appendix J. That also assumes it wasn't re-shelled earlier or after the 65 RAC win.
Some race car provenance is dubious even where a tube frame chassis or monocoque is involved. I can never accept that a re-shelled unitary construction car can be the "original". Cortinas, Escorts, Minis many "famous" registrations are known to have appeared on several shells but the changes are not documented, sometimes simply because they weren't properly recorded, sometimes to avoid any "licencing problems" (but not necessarily illegal up to about 1979/80 and compulsory VIN plates).

So is the car carrying DJB93B today (in 65 RAC spec?) "original" and does it have the first shell it was registered with at the end of 64?
Is Rothmans Escort DKP191T that is around today the "original" car that was "new" for the 81 Acropolis, "new" for the 81 1000 Lakes and "new" for the 81 San Remo and was later the black and white R.E.D. car in 82?
Is Lotus Cortina KPU381C the "original" much used works and later private car?
Is Escort LVX942J the "original"? We know that isn't because it was known to have been re-shelled whilst still in use by Roger Clark in 72 (and had previously been re-shelled into "Esso Blue" from previous works use??).

Nice replicas, using some original fittings: shame about the wholly "original" tags??

Did anyone use the tag 'original'?

I probably know as much about the rebuild of DJB for Phil Short as anyone as it was done by friends of mine. No-one claims the car is 'original'. The car was rebuilt to the specification requested by Phil who spent a fortune making sure everything was as perfect as possible to the way the car was in the 60's.
Like any Rally cars (my ex-Monte Mini for example) very liitle remains to this day, particularly if it did an event like the RAC (proper event) or the Acropolis. I have spoken to the 2nd owner of my car and also the Co-driver of it on the Monte and know that nothing was original after the Monte except the shell, never mind now over 40 years later after the ravages of time and the fact the shell has changed.

However, who actually cares, as long as it isn't a complete fake made up from nothing other than a few pictures in a book, unfortunately there are a few of those around (DJB isn't one of them), or you get people who find old works shells and resurrect the reg number, to a point not an issue apart from the fact that it may exist elsewhere with a continuous history.
These were competition cars they got used and abused and IMHO there are very few 'original' cars around (and that includes some of the ones people think are original) but as long as it can trace it's history that's good enough for me.

As an example I know of a few ex-works mini's which ended their rally careers in private hands in mini clubman shells as there was more room to work under the bonnet. The current owners of these cars have returned them to Mk1 Mini Cooper shells, personally I'd rather see that than one on a clubman shell looking nothing like the original car, yes I suppose these could be classed as replicas with the correct reg number but then that is really what they would be in the clubman shell but with a competition car what else is there?

[frogeye59]

Originally posted by RS2000


the 1982 RAC Rally that used Oliver's Mount as its final special stage.

I was there !! cheering on Henri Toivonen and my hero Ari Vatenan.

Myself and 3 student pals had spent the previous 36 hours chasing from stage to stage in my Hillman Imp (thankfully one of those, all too few, occasions it went without blowing the head gasket)

Those icy roads in and out of the various stages (Cropton, Dalby, Etc) certainly concentrated the mind in a rear drive imp on its original cross plys.......

Great Fun. !!!

David

[RS2000]

Originally posted by frogeye59

I was there !! cheering on Henri Toivonen and my hero Ari Vatenan.
avid

Vatanen didn't make it that far that year I'm afraid (an off that split the rad and cooked the head gasket on the first leg - in Clocaenog was it?).

My car, that did, is still genuinely original apart from a couple of panels so I (and others) take a dim view of re-shelled "period" reconstructions or replicas (most of which are usually described as "original" by show organisers, magazines etc. that sometimes pay appearance money for them). Why get heated defending them if there is nothing to gloss over?

I think the southern Mini roadgoing speed crowd must have been on holiday if a 65 works rally spec car could ever take 2nd or 3rd against a representative field!

[BRG]

Originally posted by RS2000
My car, that did, is still genuinely original apart from a couple of panels so I (and others) take a dim view of re-shelled "period" reconstructions or replicas (most of which are usually described as "original" by show organisers, magazines etc. that sometimes pay appearance money for them). Why get heated defending them if there is nothing to gloss over?

For rally cars, this may be a rather grey area.

In the Boreham days, the same registration plate was known to appear on two or three different Ford Escorts in as many weeks. I recall one time when as car was a RHD UK forest-spec Escort one week, a full European tarmac spec LHD car, with different bodywork (the wheel arch extensions were square on the tarmac cars) a couple of weeks later, and then a LHD gravel spec car a week after that . All carried the same registration plate, so which of those was the ‘real’ car? If it wasn’t clear when they were new, what hope is there now? IIRC, Ford were cautioned about this sort of thing by Essex police, who also took exception to their hydraulic handbrakes (which were deemed illegal if they had no back-up mechanical linkage).

Most works rally cars were reshelled several times, with the discarded shells sometimes being sold off to privateers. So the ‘original’ might be a club rally car somewhere, whilst the registration plate is fixed to a completely different car which is no less of an ex-works rally car.

So can you really be sure that your car is ‘original’? Maybe you can, but most have much more foggy histories.

[simonlewisbooks]

Originally posted by RAP
My recollection of Olivers Mount is that its a circuit not a hill climb.

Whilst primarily a motor cycle racing circuit (too narrow for cars), Olivers Mount is used for two hill climbs per year by the Auto 66 Club and this year the VSCC also ran an event there.
RAP

500cc F3 cars raced there in the early 50s as they did at a similar parkland motorcycle venue in Scotland, Beveridge Park.

This was also the era when Cadwell, otherwise a dedicated motorcycle racing venue, used to include F3 events at some meetings.Brough also mixed F3 and bikes on the same card.

The gulf between car and bike racing was not always as sharply defined as it is now - although I do recall sidecars appearing at a BRDC GT/F3 event at Donington in about 96.

Simon Lewis
Transport Book
www.simonlewis.com

[frogeye59]

Originally posted by RS2000


Vatanen didn't make it that far that year I'm afraid (an off that split the rad and cooked the head gasket on the first leg - in Clocaenog was it?).

Quite right RS, mists of time have obviously blurred my perception of the Ascona 400's, Clocaenog it was that did for Ari.

Henri T was giving it full beans in his Ascona 400 at Olivers Mount trying to catch one of the Audis for second as he was only a hand full of seconds behind, he didnt quite make it if I recall, must have been Miss Mouton he was after as Mikkola/Hertz won it....again.

Was this the year Rohrl was sacked just before the event, for not pitching up to a Rothmans celebration of his world championship in York.

RS you mention the originality of your car, could you give us a little more if you dont mind, Escort one assumes but with "works" provenance ??? What events and driven by whom.??

Cheers

David

[terry mcgrath]

Might this be the ropey SS100......

This ropey SS100 is a genuine SS90!!!!

[2F-001]

I recall a televised Oliver's Mount "RAC" stage on which a works Stratos (Munari?) got lost or missed the stage exit and ended up running the course twice. Does anyone else remember this, or is this a confused half-memory?

[RS2000]

Olivers Mount on the RAC rally was usually 2 laps. I think Munari (or Mario Mannuchi - few admit to which crew member is at fault in those circumstances!) missed the exit and did 3 laps.

I hadn't seen the earlier post that asks how I can be sure my car was original. Yes it was original. I converted it from a 1 owner 2 year old road car with my own hands and prepared it for 9 International Rallies with my own hands. I can be fairly sure it reached the finish of the RAC Rally each year it was entered because I was driving it. It's since featured on another thread on here and its new owner (after 26 years of my ownership) is now 2 weeks away from embarking on a 2008 British Historic Rally Championship campaign(hopefully a winning one, since the championship is class-based and the top class that has produced past winners has been entered this year by both Stig Blomquist and Bjorn Waldegard, both championship registered but unlikely to do the whole series so taking points away from those who do in that class!)