54 replies to this topic

[smithy]

Was it Fangio who said "less haste, more speed"? Whoever said it, what was the context?

I'm sure this has been discussed here somewhere but I can't get SEARCH to look for that specific string......

[bira]

"Less haste, more speed" is a very common phrase. Why do you attribute it to Fangio?

[smithy]

I dunno...... something in the very dark (but not necessarily deep) recesses of my brain. Google is no help so perhaps it wasn't him.

Perhaps I'm confusing it with "less brake, more accelerator"?

[smithy]

Yep... Google helps with that one. Fangio put his success down to : "a little less brake, a little more accelerator."

There you go...... how easy it is to mix things up.

[Barry Boor]

IIRC Fangio is supposed to have said words to the effect that the best driver is the one who can win at the slowest possible speed.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Ive always attributed that one to JYS, he at least made it his teaching style.

[D-Type]

I first saw that attributed to Reg Parnell

[Barry Boor]

In fact, history tells us that Ben Hur said it first!

[David Beard]

Originally posted by bira
"Less haste, more speed" is a very common phrase. Why do you attribute it to Fangio?

My dad used to say "More haste, less speed". Never heard it the other way, but I never met Fangio...

[Mal9444]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
IIRC Fangio is supposed to have said words to the effect that the best driver is the one who can win at the slowest possible speed.

I'm sure I read somewhere that what he said was 'I like to win by going as slowly as possible.' - I think I read it being quoted about him (JMF) by Stirling Moss (who did not subscribe to that philosophy).

[MCS]

Originally posted by David Beard


My dad used to say "More haste, less speed". Never heard it the other way, but I never met Fangio...

So glad you posted this David!

I was beginning to think it was just me that had been wrong all these years!!

[Ray Bell]

"Winning at the slowest possible speed" was the way Jack Brabham's wins were being described in 1960...

Fangio's quote about 'less brake, more accelerator' came after he put in a much faster time in another driver's 250F at Spa one year. Can't remember who, it will be in a book somewhere, it was his response when the privateer driver asked him how he did it.

Thinking about it, that may have been from Jenks' book.


And yes, it is correct to say that expression is 'more haste, less speed'. Meaning that if you're hasty to do something you are bound to make mistakes that will slow you down.

[Ruairidh]

Originally posted by MCS

So glad you posted this David!

I was beginning to think it was just me that had been wrong all these years!!

Nah, looks like both are correct, 'cos I grew up with the "less haste, more speed" imperative, with the emphasis (I guess) on what I had to stop doing (frenzied haste) in order to get more of what I wanted (pure speed).

[MCS]

Originally posted by Ruairidh


Nah, looks like both are correct, 'cos I grew up with the "less haste, more speed" imperative, with the emphasis (I guess) on what I had to stop doing (frenzied haste) in order to get more of what I wanted (pure speed).

Well, now I'm really confused

[Ray Bell]

I'm not... check my explanation...

[MCS]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
I'm not... check my explanation...

Agreed I'm with you Ray!

[roger_valentine]

Google hits:

"more haste, less speed" 31,600
"less haste, more speed" 3,390

Maybe its a regional thing, but I grew up in the North of England, and it was always "more haste, less speed".

Would Fangio have been able to cope with the subtleties of the English language ever to say either of these things?

[Barry Boor]

So it was in the east end of London, Roger.

[Tim Murray]

And on Guernsey - about the furthest south you can get in the British Isles (apart from that other island where the toads come from ).

I'd never come across 'less haste, more speed' until I read this thread.

[Barry Boor]

I'd never come across 'less haste, more speed' until I read this thread.

Neither had I.

[kayemod]

Originally posted by roger_valentine
Would Fangio have been able to cope with the subtleties of the English language ever to say either of these things?

According to Olivier Merlin one of JMF's biographers, he didn't speak a word of English, just a little Italian, so maybe, "Più rapidità meno velocità" ?

Or then again, maybe "Più acceleratore meno freno".

We'll never know.

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Ray Bell

Fangio's quote about 'less brake, more accelerator' came after he put in a much faster time in another driver's 250F at Spa one year. Can't remember who, it will be in a book somewhere, it was his response when the privateer driver asked him how he did it.

Mantovani, Marimon, Bira or Moss?

[kayemod]

Originally posted by Roger Clark

Mantovani, Marimon, Bira or Moss?

It can't possibly have been Bira, she'd have mentioned it here long ago.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Roger Clark
Mantovani, Marimon, Bira or Moss?

Mantovani is a possibility... certainly not Bira or Moss, and I feel quite sure it was after the death of Marimon. Like 1957?

[Tim Murray]

Originally posted by Arturo Pereira in the ‘Quotes from Drivers, Owners, Hangers-on and so forth’ thread

At Spa Maserati had brought a fourth car for popular Belgian driver and Fangio friend Johnny Claes. Unable to get his car down to decent times Claes asked Fangio if he would try it. The Argentine did and promptly lapped at speeds akin to those he had set in his own car. Claes asked Fangio afterward: “But tell me, how on earth do you do it ?”. Paul Frere heard the reply: “Fangio said nothing at first and extricated himself from the cockpit; he then went quietly to sit on the pit counter and, in his broken English, gave his very plain and simple explanation: “less brakes, and more accelerator."

1953, presumably?

Edit: confirmed as 1953 - the story was quoted by Paul Frère in his book Competition Driving.

[Ray Bell]

Okay... I was way out in my timing...

But that means it would be in Paul Frere's book. That would be where I read it. And obviously I was wrong about what type of Maserati was involved.

[Tim Murray]

Sorry Ray - I was editing my post while you were posting. Yes, it's in the book mentioned.

[smithy]

I found this: http://www.phrases.o...ssages/445.html   In particular,

"The notion of haste being counterproductive can be traced back at least to the apocryphal 'Book of Wisdom' (c. 190 B.C.) by Jesus Ben Sirach, which contained the line, 'There is one that toileth and laboureth, and maketh haste, and is so much the more behind.'

Also, the phrase "MORE HASTE, LESS SPEED" was once used in road safety posters. Which is possibly why this version of the phrase is more commonly known in the UK...?

[Wolf]

I can't contribute much but I'd say 'less haste, more speed' sounds logical to me- speed being desirable while haste not (one shouldn't do things hastily). My grandparents always said 'beeile dich langsam' (in all other situations, German was used as their 'secret code'*)- which I'm certain had roots in latin proverb of the same meaning (they used that one far less frequently, so I have forgotten it). It was supposed to mean to take things more slowly (calmly, I'd say) to be more productive (speedy).

* if any of my grandparents had an objection to something the other one said/did, they'd settle the matter with few sentences calmly exchanged in German; they'd never challenge another in front of kids/grandkids, and have never-ever raised their voice (quite a feat, considering I was their spoilt grandkid)... aaah, the gentler times.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Wolf
I can't contribute much but I'd say 'less haste, more speed' sounds logical to me- speed being desirable while haste not (one shouldn't do things hastily).....

The statement, however, was usually issued as an admonishment...

One might be doing things hastily, so the warning went out "More haste-" as in "continue as you are..." then (the result is...) "-less speed".


Tim... yes, that was the book.

[Wolf]

Might be, Ray- I think we're all discussing a modern variant of that ancient Greek prophecy about going to war and not returning, whose meaning changed with a placement of the comma. But if it was used in safety campaign, surely it would be contrary to what Fangio/whoever intended it to mean. Their aim would be not speeding (but not holding up the traffic), while his was to attain maximum speed. But as You have pointed out, we might be viewing it from different perspectives- a thing that occured to me...

[bira]

Less haste, more speed is the proverb that I am familiar with from my studies. It is a universal phrase with parallel proverbs in many languages (I grew up with the Arabic/Hebrew ones, and later with the Latin "festina lente").

Funnily enough, I understand it the same way as Ray does: that is, if you don't rush things, then you are going to accomplish faster results overall.

[philippe charuest]

Originally posted by bira
Less haste, more speed is the proverb that I am familiar with from my studies. It is a universal phrase with parallel proverbs in many languages (I grew up with the Arabic/Hebrew ones, and later with the Latin "festina lente").

Funnily enough, I understand it the same way as Ray does: that is, if you don't rush things, then you are going to accomplish faster results overall.

in french too. the proverb is "il ne faut pas confondre vitesse et precipitation" a direct translation would be "speed is not haste".meaning to act rapidly is good ,but to do the thinking first and to do the job the right way is always better

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Wolf
Might be, Ray- I think we're all discussing a modern variant of that ancient Greek prophecy about going to war and not returning, whose meaning changed with a placement of the comma. But if it was used in safety campaign, surely it would be contrary to what Fangio/whoever intended it to mean. Their aim would be not speeding (but not holding up the traffic), while his was to attain maximum speed. But as You have pointed out, we might be viewing it from different perspectives- a thing that occured to me...

Fangio never used it...

We showed earlier that his statement related to the use of the accelerator and the brake.

[smithy]

Originally posted by bira
Funnily enough, I understand it the same way as Ray does: that is, if you don't rush things, then you are going to accomplish faster results overall.

Me too.

[bira]

Originally posted by philippe charuest
in french too. the proverb is "il ne faut pas confondre vitesse et precipitation" a direct translation would be "speed is not haste".meaning to act rapidly is good ,but to do the thinking first and to do the job the right way is always better

I also came across Moliere's Le trop de promptitude a l'erreur nous expose (haste leads us to error). Is that accurate?

Anyway, I came across many version of it from different cultures and languages. Hell, I even found a Tibetian version (which I rather like. It translates to "Hasten slowly and you shall soon arrive")

[Barry Boor]

Bira, please pass that last one on to Michael Schumacher. Might keep him away from the front next season.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Wouldnt it be "more haste equals less speed" with the comma it reads like more salt, less pepper.

[Ray Bell]

No Ross... it's never been expressed that way...

[bira]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Wouldnt it be "more haste equals less speed" with the comma it reads like more salt, less pepper.

Originally posted by Ray Bell
No Ross... it's never been expressed that way...

Never?

Ross is right, though.

Less haste = more speed. That's what the proverb "less haste, more speed" means as far as I know / can tell.

[Roger Stoddard]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
In fact, history tells us that Ben Hur said it first!

Only he said Festina Lente ...

[D-Type]

More haste = less speed
Less haste = more speed

Logically, or mathematically, it's the same thing. The difference lies in the emphasis.

OT
I've been wondering, if Fangio had said it, would he have used Italian or Spanish? In other words, as the son of Italians in Spanish-speaking Argentina what language would be his mother tongue? I suppose it would be Italian for what he learned at his mother's knee and Spanish for what he learned at school. Can anybody who grew up in a bilingual situation clarify this?

[Ross Stonefeld]

We'd have to know the identity of the person asking him.

[Ray Bell]

Well, it's a moot point anyway...

As I pointed out to Wolf, there is no reality in saying that Fangio either used the expression or coined the expression.

He made a comment about braking and accelerating.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Well, it's a moot point anyway...

Indeed, hence the interesting discussion...

[Ray Bell]

Certainly it's an interesting discussion about haste and speed and expressions relating thereto...

But it loses any interest when someone brings Fangio in on that subject. Tim Murray resolved the issue about what Fangio said many posts back.

[kayemod]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
We'd have to know the identity of the person asking him.

Not necessarily. 'Foreigners' very often converse in English when that's the only language they have in common, though this would have been less common in the 1950s when English wasn't anything like as widely taught as it is today. Johnny Claes, if he was indeed the 250F pilot concerned spoke good English, though I have no idea whether he knew any Spanish or Italian, so maybe this could be what happened here. Don't know where I got it from, but I've seen Fangio described more than once in biographies etc as having a smattering of Italian, picked up mainly from the mechanics during his time at Ferrari and Maserati, and almost no English or German.

[Ross Stonefeld]

What I meant was if he was asked by someone speaking Spanish or Italian.

[Ray Bell]

That's hard to work out...

Claes was a Belgian who was born in London. And he was the man involved.

[David McKinney]

The only time I heard Fangio speaking publicly, to an English audience, it was in Italian. Sounded pretty fluent to me