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McLaren 'orange'


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#1 mp4

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Posted 12 February 2006 - 21:37

Hello All,
There is a LOT of knowledge in this forum so I would like to tap a few brains...
Does anyone know the proper colour or paint code for McLaren in the 60's and early 70's?
I have a new race bike and would like to make it look nice for the debut on April 24th.
My brother has a rather large chunk of McLaren M6b bodywork. We tried to get it scanned but came up empty...
Any help would be good.

Thanks, in advance

Wanna be racer boy

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#2 fausto

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Posted 12 February 2006 - 21:43

the paint 'd be the same seen "recently" on both the GTR (press presentation '96) and on a Formula 1 a couple of years later, during the pre-season testing, so if you find this code....a way could be to contact a model car company, even a small one, but reliable (they'd have done the same research), as for McLaren itself I'd personally try, even if I'm not so sure that they'd reply....

:)

#3 Bob Riebe

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 04:50

The Color was called Gulf yellow back when they were using it, so maybe you could chase that lead.
Bob

#4 Vicuna

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 06:46

Rylands Traffic Yellow is what we've learnt recently

#5 dretceterini

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 10:12

The new paint scheme with the chrome looking bodywork makes the car look like a giant chidren's toy....FUGLY!!!!!!

#6 David M. Kane

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 13:08

Chrome is REALLY ugly I agreed. I really liked the Orange.

#7 ian senior

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 13:24

Quote from some bloke called Montoya: "Wow, what a beautiful looking car". Send him to Specsavers.

#8 mfd

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 14:26

The McLaren colour is known as Papaya Orange.

Coming as it did from the 60's it was then painted with cellulose, which is not of todays paint technology.

A few years ago McLaren's own paint shop re-formulated the original colour into 2-pack Acrylic, so they could restore an M8D in their own collection.

I had a sample sprayout ( from McLaren ) which I cross referenced to a Standox colour of their "Identikit" range, number 76004

The paint always used by my contact at Marsh Models, (well known as hand built 1/43 model car builders, specialising in Can-Am cars of the period) was Renault 318 Jaune Orange Andalou

You should be aware that the colour in photographs will look different to the real colour, so it may well be worth checking out the colour chip first....

Hope this helps !

#9 kayemod

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 18:38

Originally posted by mfd
The McLaren colour is known as Papaya Orange.


Wrong, it was only ever called that by one or two journalists, Pete Lyons & Doug Nye among others. The colour was originally only available as a polyester pigment that was used for the self-coloured fibreglass bodywork back in the 60s & 70s. The manufacturer's name for it was Traffic Yellow, and the paint came later, I'm sure McLaren had it mixed specially for them. They always referred to it as McLaren Orange, or occasionally in deference to a major sponsor 'Gulf Orange', but never papaya.

It's impossible to tell from photos, but it looks to me as if the current test cars are much more orange than the original McLaren colour, which was more of a yellow than an orange.

#10 Manfred Cubenoggin

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 19:32

I read many moons ago...and this is strictly from memory as I have nothing to back it up...that Bruce cribbed the original CanAm 'carmel' paint used first for the '67 cars from a British-based group 7 car he'd seen early in that year. He was so impressed by its unique flavour that he adopted it himself. Comments?

#11 mp4

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 23:05

Thank you all for your input. Very much appreciated. :up:

Based on the pictures I have seen of this year's Mac in testing, it does look a bit more yellow than the chunk of bodywork my brother "liberated"... :blush:

I still have a few months to get things right. We'll see what happens.

Again, thank you all for your help. :wave:

Richard

#12 Barry Boor

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 23:17

Whilst I concede that the McLaren colour was not a pure Jos Verstappen A1GP orange, there is NO WAY I would ever describe it as any shade of yellow.

If mfd has had a sample and has matched it to a standard colour, that should be good enough.

#13 Twin Window

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 23:41

Originally posted by Barry Boor

If mfd has had a sample and has matched it to a standard colour, that should be good enough.

Absolutely, BB.

For those who aren't already aware, TNF member 'mfd' is aka Mike Fairholme - the doyen of modern helmet painters - who has worked for some considerable time with McLaren and, in particular, their Arai-contracted drivers.

I think that qualifies him fairly well.  ;)

#14 macoran

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 00:25

Ian Senior.

which focus would you advise JPM on...+/- Raikonnen or +/- Schumacher ?

#15 Vicuna

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 08:32

Originally posted by kayemod


They always referred to it as McLaren Orange, or occasionally in deference to a major sponsor 'Gulf Orange', but never papaya.


Of course McLaren's were 'orange' before Gulf came along...

#16 kayemod

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 08:52

Originally posted by Manfred Cubenoggin
I read many moons ago...and this is strictly from memory as I have nothing to back it up...that Bruce cribbed the original CanAm 'carmel' paint used first for the '67 cars from a British-based group 7 car he'd seen early in that year. He was so impressed by its unique flavour that he adopted it himself. Comments?


Quite correct, and I'm pretty sure that it was Hugh Dibley's Lola T70.

Barry is right, and I didn't explain myself too well earlier, the original McLaren orange was best described as a yellowy orange, with a slightly muddy look to it. The colour never photographed too well, and often seemed to look much more orange in book & magazine reproductions, it certainly wouldn't be considered suitable in today's media conscious age when image is all, and brash chrome plated cars are apparently acceptable. Bear in mind that I'm casting my mind back thirty years, but as far as I can tell from Autosport pics, the most recent McLaren orange is a fairly ordinary light orange colour, and it lacks much of the muddy yellowness that I remember quite clearly, it just isn't quite the original colour. Using the example of my autographed copy (!!!) of Pete Lyon's Can Am book, an M8 looks orange on the DW, but yellow in the very same pic inside the book, and various M6, M8 & M20s alternate between yellow and orange, often on the very same page, and the self-coloured fibreglass bodywork would all have been exactly the same shade, the cars were never painted while in factory ownership. It makes lfe very difficult for historians, but the fact is that old photographs, especially when they are reproduced on paper, just aren't a reliable guide, and indoor studio shots even less so.

#17 JacnGille

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 17:05

I buy my paint for McLaren model cars here:
http://ourworld.cs.c...t/racelist.html
And here are their paint codes:
McLaren Can-Am - 2070 orange or 2120 lt. orange

#18 kanerogers

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 08:12

The Canadian Dr. Grant Hill had an M6A, which he painted using GM School Bus Yellow on the advice of a former McLaren mechanic who helped him verify the car's provenance before purchasing it. It was exactly correct.

Best regards,

Kane Rogers

#19 mfd

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 13:49

I now have an answer to the original post, having had the opportunity to speak to the man responsible for painting McLaren's F1 cars...he is under huge amounts of pressure, atm, sorting out the current chrome / red livery / nightmare.

Reference the 2005-6 orange test car, I can now say that it is definately not the same colour as the Can-Am & F1 cars from the 60's.

Neither was the previous F1 test car ( MP4-13 ) that similarly ran in orange, as an interim, when the team colours were changing over from Marlboro to West.

So to summarise, 1997 test car was slightly more orange than the original 60's colour and the 2005-6 test car is slightly more orange than the 1997 car.

The changes were partly cosmetic choices and also as certain pigments had changed ( ie no longer available ) with advances in paint technology.

I was also told that the McLaren F1 GTR LM road car (not painted in-house) was another shade of orange entirely. This was a mistake by the other company & it was accepted as such, there being no time left to rectify it, before the press launch. Other subsequent ones built in the short production run were similarly supplied in the wrong colour too !

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#20 ensign14

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 14:03

Originally posted by mfd
I now have an answer to the original post, having had the opportunity to speak to the man responsible for painting McLaren's F1 cars...he is under huge amounts of pressure, atm, sorting out the current chrome / red livery / nightmare.

Ooo, are they getting rid of it? It's a mess even without the specular reflection making the sponsor names look illegible.

How come Bruce never settled on a colour for his cars? Red, white & black, black & silver, orangey-yellow...

#21 kayemod

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 14:22

Thank you Lord, so my ageing eyes and memory have not deluded me!

What MFD says is pretty much what I've been saying all along, nothing in the last few years has matched the original McLaren orange exactly, and even the re-sprayed M8 in the Paragon museum display is a bit iffy, it certainly doesn't look right to me in photos.

In the 60s, 70s & even 80s, racing cars were painted fairly infrequently, and orange factory McLarens never were. Cars were only painted if the entrant wanted a particularly complicated colour scheme, when the cars went on to second or third ownership, of if an impoverished owner wanted to tart up a tired looking car. Almost all original fibreglass bodywork was unpainted self-coloured GRP, and there would have been some tendency for them to fade in sunlight, hence the slightly muddy pale yellow/orange that I remember so well on M6, M7, M8 etc, though I do claim to have been fairly young at the time. We should also bear in mind that painted surfaces and polished fibreglass reflect light rather differently, so it would be far from easy to replicate exactly with paint, the appearance of an early McLaren F1 or Can Am car.

#22 Macca

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 16:41

Originally posted by ensign14
How come Bruce never settled on a colour for his cars? Red, white & black, black & silver, orangey-yellow...


Actually, they went black/silver, 'fence' green, white/green, red, orange (originally with a green stripe)..................don't know about white & black except on the Chequered Flag M4s.

Paul M

#23 philippe7

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 16:44

I fully sympathise with the "polyester pigment for fiberglass resin - or gelcoat, more likely- giving a shade impossible to reproduce with paint" theory, however this really only applies to the Can-Am cars on which all the "orange" surface was fiberglass bodywork....on the single-seater cars ( at least the M7, M14 and early M19 ) part of the car was indeed fiberglass bodywork, but part of it ( notably the monocoque sides ) were just raw aluminium , not lined with anything, and this aluminium was certainly painted , and from what I recall having seen on those cars ( in museums, I'm too young to have seen M 7's racing live ;) ....) there is no visually shocking difference in the aspect of the orange of the fiberglass parts, and of the metal parts.....or, unlike the CanAm cars, maybe the F1 cars got a coat of paint all over ? The F1's always seemed to me as being of a more intense shade of orange than the CanAms, incidentally ......

#24 kayemod

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 18:34

Originally posted by philippe7
I fully sympathise with the "polyester pigment for fiberglass resin - or gelcoat, more likely- giving a shade impossible to reproduce with paint" theory, however this really only applies to the Can-Am cars on which all the "orange" surface was fiberglass bodywork....on the single-seater cars ( at least the M7, M14 and early M19 ) part of the car was indeed fiberglass bodywork, but part of it ( notably the monocoque sides ) were just raw aluminium , not lined with anything, and this aluminium was certainly painted , and from what I recall having seen on those cars ( in museums, I'm too young to have seen M 7's racing live ;) ....) there is no visually shocking difference in the aspect of the orange of the fiberglass parts, and of the metal parts.....or, unlike the CanAm cars, maybe the F1 cars got a coat of paint all over ? The F1's always seemed to me as being of a more intense shade of orange than the CanAms, incidentally ......


You're partly right there philippe, McLaren monocoques on both Can Am, F1 & F2 cars were painted to match the bodywork, which they did perfectly, quite a large area on the Can Am cars. I'm pretty sure that they had a special paint formulation for that, probably cellulose given the era, it wasn't a stock colour. I've seen a lot of orange M6, M8, M7, M19 etc, and I've never ever seen a single painted fibreglass body part, except relatively recently on a few restored examples. Also, if McLaren F1 cars have ever been more orangey than the early versions, that doesn't apply to anything raced before the Marlboro era, all were exactly the same orange/yellow. You may be interested to know that in the 'proper' McLaren era, every sponsor logo on these cars was individually painted by hand, never a single sticker. This applies to the Goodyear, Gulf, Reynolds Aluminum etc, and the 'Bruce McLaren/Denny Hulme - McLAREN CARS' script in dark blue. When new bodywork arrived, a signwriter would turn up at the Colnbrook works with a case full of paint, brushes, those ball on a stick things that Rembrandt probably used, and sheaves of tracing paper with all the logos & lettering. He taped these on the body in the correct position, a few strokes with a pencil, and he then painted every single one freehand, with astonishing speed and accuracy. Makes me feel old just thinking about it.

#25 mfd

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 18:45

When new bodywork arrived, a signwriter would turn up



Yes indeed !
I'm pretty sure Doug Eyre used to do a lot of signwriting for McLaren stuff like that in the 70's

Btw, "those ball on a stick things" are called marl sticks.

#26 philippe7

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 20:47

Well, incredible indeed that all those "stickers" were actually hand-painted !

Regarding the non-painted fiberglass parts on the single seaters I will take your word for it, actually the only period McLaren I could take a close look at recently is the ex-Tony Dean F5000-converted M7 , which is somewhere in the Beaujolais region in France, still with a 5 liter Chevy in the back but re-decorated in F1 guise with Denny Hulme's name painted on it and all the other period F1 decoration.....and it did seem to me that a hefty paint coat had been applied on that one but it is of course not significant of what it was like "then".

Your story about the hand-painted sponsor logos on the Mc Laren's reminds me of a story that Barry Sheene told me when I was fortunate to visit his in-house museum back in 1997 : he told me that his biggest worry when restoring his Grand Prix racers collection to "mint" standard had not been the engine parts or anything technical.....but the sponsors stickers , often totally unavailable ( some companies had disappeared altogether ) and that he had to recreate manually with a sharp cutter and a few rolls of adhesive tape of various colours....

#27 Manfred Cubenoggin

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 21:55

Not wishing to hi-jack this interesting thread but the mention of the hand-painted details on the McLarens reminded of a name I saw painted on the CanAmer's one year at Mosport...sorry, can't recall exactly but at the earliest, 1969. The prominently displayed name was 'Boyd Jeffries'. A search of the TNF BB revealed that Frank S mentioned him the 'Transporter' thread...http://forums.autosp...st1560861...but did not elaborate as to his role. I'm probably completely wrong in this but my recollection is reading of him being an American lawyer friend of Bruce's. Who was he and what was his connection to McLaren Cars?

Edit: thanks for the link in post #29, T54. Hey, Dave K!!!


#28 David M. Kane

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 22:53

I thought Boyd was an investments kind of guy. BTW, this new Chrome thing DOES not work for me at all. I think it's cheesy.

#29 T54

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 00:10

Here you go...

"Boyd Jefferies, the Whole Story"

It is Boyd Jefferies, not "Jeffries"... :)

As far as the color, in 1966 Bruce had the Lancer slot car racing model company of San Bernardino, CA., build a dozen or so of display models of the MK6 in the 1/24 scale. For this, they provided the company with several quarts of the actual paint. About 15 years ago, the former model maker of that company gave me what was described to be the prototype of that model, painted with the actual pigment and detailed as Bruce's car. I did not believe the story too much, that is until one of my friends, the late Skip Hudson had me repair and restore a model by the same fellow of his Can-Am Lancer-Lola T70 that he drove at Riverside and other venues. In the box with the Lola was... another of those McLaren, an obvious production model made from the prototype's patterns, which I traded for some other models he wanted.
I do not know if any original panel survives with the actual paint, but if someone absolutely needs an exact color match and has a way to analyze the color from an easy spectographic scan or something non-destructive, please PM me...

The two models will be on display in a new museum being built for such use in... Beverly Hills as we speak! Opening in 2008.

#30 mfd

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 00:23

Your story about the hand-painted sponsor logos on the Mc Laren's reminds me of a story that Barry Sheene told me when I was fortunate to visit his in-house museum back in 1997 : he told me that his biggest worry when restoring his Grand Prix racers collection to "mint" standard had not been the engine parts or anything technical.....but the sponsors stickers , often totally unavailable ( some companies had disappeared altogether ) and that he had to recreate manually with a sharp cutter and a few rolls of adhesive tape of various colours....



Exactly Philippe, I've been there too ! Your story reminds me of a "little" task I took on with Barry's film "Space Riders"

I was around on the UK scene gofering for a friend who raced in the late 70's to mid 80's. It was a great way for me to get to know other riders in order to practice my art as I paint helmets. More particularly, when I knew there was going to be a film made during the ( was it 1984 ? ) season and having been involved in the previous 1977 film about bike racing "Silver Dream Racer", I knew there was a possibility the production crew might need some help with helmets.

I was at a Donington meeting where the first action shots were being taken. Most folk stayed on for Monday and Tuesday too. They had great on-site catering ! Anyway I managed to find the Art Director, who desperately needed helmets that looked like those of Sheene & Haslam etc. All they had were plain helmets, no logos or anything. I got the job, as long as could turn up the next day with suitably decorated replica helmets...

The Haslam replica was easy, as I had the artwork anyway. The UK importers of Kiwi helmets, had me produce Ron's real helmets and they had also had stickers printed to make replica kits, not that I told the film company that of course! The Sheene replica was a little harder as I again had a white helmet to work on...it was very swiftly painted overnight and I turned up at 9 o'clock, with very little, if no sleep.

The reaction was "great, now we need sets of stickers for the two production Honda RS500 we have hired and we want to make them look like the NS500 that ran in HRC colours, can you help ?"

There were printed stickers available if you knew where to find them, but as there was no time and they wanted them applied on the bikes for 9 the next morning, I just had to go back home and by photocopying, enlarging, tracing etc, I hand cut sets of all the logos for all the various bikes...all this before vinyl computer aided cutting was as common as it is today.

Anyway I managed it all and it led to much more graphic work on the "Space Riders" film. I also got to know Barry much better, Julian Seddon ( originally Steph's agent ) and also the film's director, a guy from the US called Joe Massot, who incidentally had also made the Led Zeppelin film " The Song Remains the Same"

Sorry about the ramble, but you just triggered some memories & long since forgotten. I guess this is more appropriate on the motorcycle thread now !

#31 philippe7

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 07:18

Thanks you, Mike :) ! Those "behind the scenes" or "insiders" stories are what this forum is so precious for .....

EDIT : Mike, I permitted myself to copy/paste your post into the Motorcycle Nostalgia thread . Hope this is OK with you .

#32 Macca

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 07:25

Ah, 'Space Riders'...................so bad it never even made it to video! :lol:

I saw it when I went to the IoM TT in 1984, so it must have been made in 1983; I remember seeing some filming at the end-of-season Brands meeting, with Barry Sheene being towed round on a bike with no front wheel attached to a pick-up truck, with a bloke moving a lever to lean the bike over for corners - no onbike cameras in those days.

I've got an article about the making of it somewhere - IIRC ex-motocrosser Dave Bickers was in charge of the bikes and stunts.

Paul M

#33 mfd

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 10:54

Hope this is OK with you


Thanks Philippe, that's probably where it should go, as it's around the same period as the current XR series / RG500 discussion

Ah, 'Space Riders'...................so bad it never even made it to video!


Bad maybe, but wrong too! It is on Video and I have a copy...some of it does makes you wince though, particularly the "Barry" crash

#34 mp4

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 23:25

Hello All,
The more I read and learn, the more confused I become! :rotfl:

All I want to do is paint my bike so that it looks nice for the 1st session of the year. ;)

Chances are, there will be the occasional accident. Before that happens, however, it would be nice to show up with a fully prepped "professional looking" machine that would make Bruce proud.

Again, thank you all for your input. :kiss:

#35 A E Anderson

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 08:16

I have, in my stash of things for model car building, a quart of McLaren "Orange", which was handed to me by a Team McLaren crewmember, at the behest of Johnny Rutherford, in the HyGain McLaren Garage in Gasoline Alley at Indianapolis in 1976. I'd carried along the original box art from the AMT 1974 McLaren Offenhauser Indianapolis winner model kit, seeking JR's autograph on it, which he excitedly did for me. I rather courageously asked if it would be possible to get a swatch of the actual color, for use in mixing my own paint, at which point, Rutherford offered that there was probably more than enough of the lacquer on hand to give me some, so I could paint the car with the genuine stuff. So, for an entire practice day, I wandered the Speedway, carefully husbanding a quart mayonaise jar full of McLaren Orange, and upon getting home, I went to a friend at an auto supply store, who put it into a clean quart paint can for me.

It's an interesting color! Depending on the angle of the light (natural sunlight or artificial) hitting it, it can be fairly orange, to a bright, almost light, yellow, but it's a solid color, no pearlescence or metallic powders in it. While definitely a lacquer, it behaved far differently than any acrylic lacquer I've used before or since, in painting model cars.

I have a jar of the MCW Automotive Finishes "McLaren Orange", and it's too dark, in my opinion, based on the real sample paint I still have (and yes, it's still quite good!).

Art

#36 Barry Boor

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 08:45

Given that you have that paint, A.E. a good idea is to take a sample down to your local car sprayer, who should have paint swatches of every colour of EVERY vehicle on the road and match it so we can finally nail down a modern equivalent (or at least, near match.)

If this is difficult, send a small sample to me as I have just such a resprayer in my own family and have done this on a couple of previous occasions.

#37 A E Anderson

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 19:16

Originally posted by Barry Boor
Given that you have that paint, A.E. a good idea is to take a sample down to your local car sprayer, who should have paint swatches of every colour of EVERY vehicle on the road and match it so we can finally nail down a modern equivalent (or at least, near match.)

If this is difficult, send a small sample to me as I have just such a resprayer in my own family and have done this on a couple of previous occasions.


I have, in my library, a complete set of Martin-Senour automotive paint chips (in the book form used by NAPA auto parts stores in the US, complete for all US makes 1947-1992, including passenger car, truck and commercial vehicles. These books do also have chips for the more significant import cars, such as US-spec VW, Renault, Fiat, and the various Japanese makes available in the US in the years covered. In addtion, I also have Martin-Senour's Corporate Color chip book, and their "rainbow" book of standard Martin Senour colors (not automotive matched), and nothing even close there!

At one time, perhaps 10 years ago, I used the AMT 1974 McLaren-Offy I'd painted in this paint, as a resource to compare with the chip books. Frankly, in the US, at least in those years, there was no color or shade of yellow or orange even close. A lot of US model builders claim the accuracy of "National School Bus Yellow", but it's far too light in shade--it is also known as Yukon Yellow, which was introduced by General Motors Truck & Coach in 1936 as a fleet color for GMC and Chevrolet trucks, and used by GM at least through 1989. Every other yellow in these books is either far too light, or in some cases, much too muted (until the creation of UV-screen paint additives and clear coats, virtually all American car colors were muted in order to minimize the effects of sun-fading).

One of the problems with looking at photographs in magazines, prior to the digital camera, is that seldom are they truly accurate. A friend of mine, a commercial and journalistic photographer explained to me that this is due to the use of color transparencies (slides, if you will) for creating the printing plates. he explained that everything depended on the skills of the particular developing lab--underdeveloped = too dark, overdeveloped = too light, and so on. Himself a car enthusiast, gave that as an explanation as to why even expensive color reproduction in books would show McLarens to be everywhere from bright yellow to almost a burnt orange.

This paint is in my public storage room at this time. I am in the process of thinning out my vast stash of model car kits (way too many!) and other items, so when I uncover it, I will make up a sample of this color, and see what it might match in terms of more recent finishes.

#38 PhantomRaspberryBlower

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Posted 07 June 2020 - 17:09

About 20 years ago I was building a 1/24 McLaren M8B kit and having trouble getting the shade of orange right. In semi-desperation - and not really expecting a reply - I wrote to the team asking for advice.

A couple of weeks later a package arrived in the post, sealed up with McLaren logo-ed sticky tape. Inside was a small jar of paint and a covering note explaining that it was left over from the restoration of one of their cars and would hopefully be of use in my endeavour. Gobsmacked, I was.

 

Mate and I enjoyed imagining Ron in his lair, stroking his white cat, bidding a minion to 'Release the secret formula!'.


Edited by PhantomRaspberryBlower, 07 June 2020 - 17:17.


#39 kayemod

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Posted 07 June 2020 - 19:36

About 20 years ago I was building a 1/24 McLaren M8B kit and having trouble getting the shade of orange right. In semi-desperation - and not really expecting a reply - I wrote to the team asking for advice.

A couple of weeks later a package arrived in the post, sealed up with McLaren logo-ed sticky tape. Inside was a small jar of paint and a covering note explaining that it was left over from the restoration of one of their cars and would hopefully be of use in my endeavour. Gobsmacked, I was.

 

Mate and I enjoyed imagining Ron in his lair, stroking his white cat, bidding a minion to 'Release the secret formula!'.

 

 

Ah, but did you get the original version of McLaren orange, the real thing, or the slightly different modern one, as on the present day restored cars?



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#40 funformula

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Posted 07 June 2020 - 21:01

Ah, but did you get the original version of McLaren orange, the real thing, or the slightly different modern one, as on the present day restored cars?

Is it a given fact that the "modern" orange isn't the correct colour?
Regarding Ron Dennis's attention to detail I wonder if he would get that wrong. It's difficult to judge this from photos as they often vary in quality and differ from reality.

I'm far trom being as accurate as Ron Dennis but in order to get the correct colour for my car I ended up in a museum standing on a ladder, 5 meters high with a colour formula guide in my hand matching the samples with the original nosecone mounted there for display.
Before that, I wasn't aware how many shades of white there are. There was even a difference between the "Tyrrell white" of 1996 and 1997 šŸ¤¤

Edited by funformula, 07 June 2020 - 21:02.


#41 kayemod

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Posted 07 June 2020 - 22:20

Is it a given fact that the "modern" orange isn't the correct colour?
Regarding Ron Dennis's attention to detail I wonder if he would get that wrong. It's difficult to judge this from photos as they often vary in quality and differ from reality.

I'm far trom being as accurate as Ron Dennis but in order to get the correct colour for my car I ended up in a museum standing on a ladder, 5 meters high with a colour formula guide in my hand matching the samples with the original nosecone mounted there for display.
Before that, I wasn't aware how many shades of white there are. There was even a difference between the "Tyrrell white" of 1996 and 1997

 

For your first question, yes, anyone who knows the original cars can see that the restored ones aren't quite the same shade of orange. Also, the moulded bodywork of the originals was polished bare fibreglass, which reflect the light in a subtly different way to modern paints. Until a few years ago at least, all the original McLaren moulds still existed, maybe they still do, so exact replicas could have been produced. If the preserved cars still have original body panels, they'd probably have had to be resprayed to smarten them up, and someone, presumably Ron, wanted them to look brighter than the originals, maybe because they'd mostly be displayed under artificial lighting, which was why he chose a more strident orange. To many people they look fine, but to us older folk who knew them back in the 60s & 70s, they aren't quite right.

 

Capture.jpg

 

 

This should give you a better idea, it's a photo of a (not perfectly restored) McLaren M8 in the Louwman Museum near the Hague in the Netherlands, I took it on a visit last year. The McLaren has been repainted in something very close to the original as raced factory colour, whereas the car behind is more like the cars now resprayed and currently displayed in the modern McLaren collection, from where they feature on their stand at events like the Goodwood Festival.


Edited by kayemod, 07 June 2020 - 22:38.


#42 BRG

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Posted 08 June 2020 - 12:10

Before that, I wasn't aware how many shades of white there are. There was even a difference between the "Tyrrell white" of 1996 and 1997

Reminds me of when I took my Nissan Sunny GTi to the body shop after a wman reversed into the door.  "What colour is it?" I was asked. "Well, it's black" I replied.  "Yes, but what shade of black?"



#43 E1pix

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Posted 08 June 2020 - 15:17

For your first question, yes, anyone who knows the original cars can see that the restored ones aren't quite the same shade of orange. Also, the moulded bodywork of the originals was polished bare fibreglass, which reflect the light in a subtly different way to modern paints. Until a few years ago at least, all the original McLaren moulds still existed, maybe they still do, so exact replicas could have been produced. If the preserved cars still have original body panels, they'd probably have had to be resprayed to smarten them up, and someone, presumably Ron, wanted them to look brighter than the originals, maybe because they'd mostly be displayed under artificial lighting, which was why he chose a more strident orange. To many people they look fine, but to us older folk who knew them back in the 60s & 70s, they aren't quite right.

 

Capture.jpg

 

 

This should give you a better idea, it's a photo of a (not perfectly restored) McLaren M8 in the Louwman Museum near the Hague in the Netherlands, I took it on a visit last year. The McLaren has been repainted in something very close to the original as raced factory colour, whereas the car behind is more like the cars now resprayed and currently displayed in the modern McLaren collection, from where they feature on their stand at events like the Goodwood Festival.

Sad that today's purchasing enthusiasts haven't enough real passion to actually recreate things correctly.

 

Presuming the image is reasonably neutral, this M8F is way too yellow. When Harry Mathews had several of these cars, the color always looked correct to me (in person). I'm not sure there was any black, either, the real cars used a very dark teal on the numbers and on "McLaren Cars." (Edit: and on drivers' names)

 

Most sad is the Revvie lettering, pains a former racecar signman like myself...  :rolleyes:


Edited by E1pix, 08 June 2020 - 15:43.


#44 Nigel Beresford

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Posted 08 June 2020 - 15:57

Yeah I agree. Everything is wrong. The rollover hoop is too pointy too (and I bet it isn't made out of titanium like the original). This is why sometimes I think they should just have been crushed (don't ask me to explain, and I wouldn't really do it), because the instant they leave the team they cease to be accurate. The only museum cars that seem right to me are, surprise surprise, the ones in the Penske collection which are (with  a couple of exceptions - the '81 and '72 cars) the chassis with the engine and the gearbox and the uprights and the setup etc. that was on the car when it won the 500 or did whatever it was that was significant in the team's history. The '72 car in the Penske collection is the Bettenhausen tub with Donohue running gear. I don't know the reason the team let Uncle Bobby's car go in 1981.

 

Historical accuracy has its downsides though. In 1992 at Indy the PC21 was slow. We didn't know if it was the car (as claimed by Ilmor) or the new Ilmor 'B' engine (as claimed by Penske Cars). The reality is probably that it was a bit of both. Roger ordered that Mears' museum-ready '91 Indy winning PC20 be brought from Reading to the Speedway. One of the changes that had been introduced to the PC20 later in the '91 season was a little saddle to support the upper water pipe as it passed around the rear corner of the tub and into the engine. This saddle was omitted from the car when it was put into May 1991 spec because it was not on the car when it won the race. Somehow or other as the car was being worked on in pit lane the pipe was inadvertantly leant on and partially levered out of the flexible coupling "jelly joint" where it entered the motor. During Rick's next run it blew out and soaked the rear tyre, causing the huge crash during which the car  inverted and ran along for some way partially grinding Rick's helmet. Rick being Rick, he cooly moved his head around to distribute the wear.



#45 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 08 June 2020 - 16:05

My question would be about the history of those two McLarens in paintjob maintenance. Is one the original paintwork carefully maintained so has some colo(u)r change with age and light exposure? Is it repainted with old paint? Is it repainted with a fresh/new mix? Is one painted 'colour corrected' because most paintwork is now done with consideration for how it will look in photo/on TV so you calibrate for the end result not the in-person? 

 

I think it was...Tony Matthews during one of our Beresford Blessed threads about Penskes and drawings, that explained the Marlboro paint had some supplements in it that made it 'pop' visually but simply could not be captured on film. It also faded relatively quickly, I think both attributes were due to it being some sort of UV quality? 



#46 2F-001

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Posted 08 June 2020 - 16:19

... I'm not sure there was any black, either, the real cars used a very dark teal on the numbers and on "McLaren Cars." (Edit: and on drivers' names)


This links us roughly to another, recent, thread... I believed this was true too (in previous seasons as well) but clearly failed to make my point there.
(Agree on the driver name script: that's just lazy, or unobservant.)

The aforementioned McLaren booklet (with the plastic comb binding): I still have one of those! I'd written to McLaren in connection to some research I wanted to do for a student project - they responded with a long and kindly letter explaining some things and that others they wouldn't expand on as they covered confidential "trade secrets". But they included a whole bundle of stuff, including brochures from some of their suppliers (such as exotic materials stockholders) and tips on where else to look for information. I was impressed. (A much, much later - and very privileged - private tour of McLaren's spectacular Tech Centre/Bond Villain HQ yielded no such souvenirs...)

Cosworth gave me less engaged response, and didn't have a lot of literature, but did send me a stack of engineering drawings, spec sheets (and start up instructions?!) of DFV, DFX and EAA engines.

A similar outline enquiry to Lola, at the same time, resulted in an invitation to a private tour of the premises on a weekend and an hour or two of one-to-one chat with Bob Marsden (and I cherish the memory of that generosity).

Just staying with "McLaren orange" for a moment... didn't the works colour change from the M6 in 67 to the later iterations of the M8?

#47 2F-001

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Posted 08 June 2020 - 16:26

My question would be about the history of those two McLarens in paintjob maintenance. Is one the original paintwork carefully maintained so has some colo(u)r change with age and light exposure? Is it repainted with old paint? Is it repainted with a fresh/new mix? Is one painted 'colour corrected' because most paintwork is now done with consideration for how it will look in photo/on TV so you calibrate for the end result not the in-person? 

 

But the car behind is a March, isn't it? Why would that be in any way a reference to a correct or incorrect McLaren colour?

Forgive me if I have completely missed, or misinterpreted, some salient point of this!


Edited by 2F-001, 08 June 2020 - 16:29.


#48 E1pix

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Posted 08 June 2020 - 16:33

:wave:

Yes, a 707 if I'm correct.

This links us roughly to another, recent, thread... I believed this was true too (in previous seasons as well) but clearly failed to make my point there.
(Agree on the driver name script: that's just lazy, or unobservant.)

Just staying with "McLaren orange" for a moment... didn't the works colour change from the M6 in 67 to the later iterations of the M8?

Yes, one wonders if there's a single, real artist within the sign industries. All it'd take is a pan shot and an hour in Illustrator... but using Brush Script is far more consistent with work ethics these days. :cry:

The McLaren color changed dramatically from '66 to '67 as you likely know, from there I don't think it did.

#49 funformula

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Posted 08 June 2020 - 17:53

...the Marlboro paint had some supplements in it that made it 'pop' visually but simply could not be captured on film. It also faded relatively quickly, I think both attributes were due to it being some sort of UV quality? 

 

The two things that will stay forever in my mind from my first visit of a F1 race back in 1980 are the almost brutal sound of the cars and the bright orange of the Marlboro sponsored McLaren and Alfa Romeo.

Both, the sound and the effect of the colour just couldnĀ“t be transferred through TV,

Sitting on the grandstand awaiting the cars, I expected somewhat loud engines but was blown away by a hellish symphony (still donĀ“t find words to describe it properly).

Same for the Marlboro cars, I expected white and orange/red and was gobsmacked by that dayglo/neon orange which made the cars immediately stick out of the crowd.

 

About five years ago I did some demo runs in Hockenheim and in the pits beside me was a beautiful restored Alfa Romeo 179 F1 from 1980 having the Marlboro chevron painted in "normal" orange.

The owner was convinced itĀ“s the correct colour.

 

These dayglo colours indeed seem to fade due to sunshine UV-radiation as IĀ“d seen ads of more than one MenardĀ“s sponsored Indy Car with extremly faded colours.

Those of you who attended Indy 500 races in the 90Ā“s may confirm my suggestion that these cars were painted in dayglo.


Edited by funformula, 08 June 2020 - 18:40.


#50 funformula

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Posted 08 June 2020 - 18:03

 Regarding the correct "McLaren orange" from the late 60Ā“s, was that a colour especially made / created / mixed for them or might they have chosen it from the  "RAL-chart of colour range" as I think that

"RAL-1028 melon yellow" might fit perfect?


Edited by funformula, 08 June 2020 - 18:31.