47 replies to this topic

[JForce]

A workmate recently went to a track day to drive an Ariel Atom around Pukekohoe Raceway, an interesting story in itself.

However whilst there he was told by someone that last year, a support race for the Australian F1 GP was a 250cc unrestricted Kart race, and that the fastest time would have been good enough for 6th on the GP grid.

I myself have called bullshit on this, but a quick google revealed nothing to back up either my claim or his.

I'm hoping someone will have a program of last years race so that we confirm if such a support race even took place, let alone times.

Now I know that most of us can't believe such a claim, but I am after real evidence, so whilst speculation is appreciated, real info would be more welcome!

[Exar Kun]

The only karts at the GP are the Corporate Kart Challenge ones and, IIRC, they lap well slower than the V8s - not entirely sure about that but certainly nothing near the F1s.

[jimm]

Originally posted by JForce
A workmate recently went to a track day to drive an Ariel Atom around Pukekohoe Raceway, an interesting story in itself.

However whilst there he was told by someone that last year, a support race for the Australian F1 GP was a 250cc unrestricted Kart race, and that the fastest time would have been good enough for 6th on the GP grid.

I myself have called bullshit on this, but a quick google revealed nothing to back up either my claim or his.

I'm hoping someone will have a program of last years race so that we confirm if such a support race even took place, let alone times.

Now I know that most of us can't believe such a claim, but I am after real evidence, so whilst speculation is appreciated, real info would be more welcome!

Possible...Karts have been faster on every track I have been to.


In a 100cc reed valve with no gearbox I sat on pole for a IKF event with a lap time that was 5 sec FASTER than the fastest SCCA Sportscar race from the weekend before (I was told it was a Corvette ZR1) on the same track. The shifter 125cc karts were 2 sec a lap faster than us.

I know that the 4 strokes (much slower than the 2 cycles I ran) ran the same times (WKA events used to have 2 cycles and cycles run different weekends) on the same weekend. Those are the only direct comparisons I am aware of first hand on a road course. On ovals we were 4 seconds a lap faster on small (1/4 mile) ovals and about 2 seconds a lap faster than on the 1/2 mile aganst ARCA stock cars and the one event they ran with one of the Indy feeder series, we were about even on the 1/2 mile


Road and Track used to run a grip competition every year...THe only thing that could beat a Kart was a CART car....Even the formula atlantics were not as good.

[Russ Brooks]

Originally posted by JForce
A workmate recently went to a track day to drive an Ariel Atom around Pukekohoe Raceway, an interesting story in itself.

However whilst there he was told by someone that last year, a support race for the Australian F1 GP was a 250cc unrestricted Kart race, and that the fastest time would have been good enough for 6th on the GP grid.

I myself have called bullshit on this, but a quick google revealed nothing to back up either my claim or his.

I'm hoping someone will have a program of last years race so that we confirm if such a support race even took place, let alone times.

Now I know that most of us can't believe such a claim, but I am after real evidence, so whilst speculation is appreciated, real info would be more welcome!

JForce as an ex-Kart driver I can tell you that SuperKarts (both 250cc single WC Rotax & Twin WC Rotax) are comparble and sometimes quicker than a F1 car around some circuits.

For example Martin Hines (who was a friend and colleague) 250cc Twin WC Rotax World Champion, and, some would say, the fastest ever Kart champion of all time, held the lap record of Brands Hatch race circuit in England for a couple of years.

This is significant for 2 reasons. First off the record is now held by Johnny Herbert (achieved on a public charity day in his (then) Jaguar F1 car - but it took him 3 years to break it. He attempted the record on 3 seperate occasions and didn't achieve it until the 3rd attempt.

Secondly the circuit used was the full F1 race circuit covering more than 2 miles and with some straights allowing for 95% throttle in top gear in the F1 car (and obviously 100% throttle in the Kart).

Now, I am not saying this is true for a lot of circuits - especially the high speed ones - but the twisty circuits like Oulton Park, Hungaroring and Interlagos (where the acceleration at high altitude far exceeds that of an F1 car) it would be comparable.

Twin Rotax SuperKarts will do 175mph and will achieve 0 - 100 mph in 4 seconds. With the 0 - 60 times approaching under 2 seconds. They can break and corner far quicker than a F1 car at low to medium speeds and with the downforce (and Wing Effect Margins being smaller) they can be breathtaking even at high speeds.

So, it is not too far into the realms of imagination that his statement about the relative grid position of 6th could be indeed true..

As a matter of statistics Martin Hines lap times around Silverstone in his hey day were about 8 seconds off of the then F1 times.

Does that help?

[WayFaster]

Wasn't last year's (2005) Australian GP Qualifying disrupted by rain? The times for 5th and 6th were 3'07.212 and 3'07.477, which were way slower than a normal dry qualifying. So it wasn't that amazing a 250cc kart could have been on 6th by doing a 3'07.3 lap in dry.

Btw, the 2004 6th qualifying time was 1'25.805.

JForce, how could you not have picked that!

[Arska]

3.07 is obviously an aggregate time of 2 laps.

[C.K.]

Originally posted by Arska
3.07 is obviously an aggregate time of 2 laps.

True:

6th Grid Place for 2005 Melbourne GP

Christian Klien

1st lap: 1'37.486
2nd lap: 1'29.991

[WayFaster]

Originally posted by Arska
3.07 is obviously an aggregate time of 2 laps.

Thanks... now I feel stinkingly stupid!!!

[C.K.]

Don't, I was with you, Thats why i checked.

The worst part is I was at that Race

[rfus]

i remember a kart race last year but they were so slow there is no way they would get a f1 comarable time. iirc it was a charity event where seats were auctioned off

[jimm]

Originally posted by rfus
i remember a kart race last year but they were so slow there is no way they would get a f1 comarable time. iirc it was a charity event where seats were auctioned off

Not sure about anywhere but the states but here there is a HUGE difference in lap times between Kart classes. The fast karts can be alot quicker than the slow ones.

As an example from what I remember at roadrace I went to every year ~1/2 mile course

True stock 4 cycle Briggs 41 sec lap
Alcohol Stock Briggs 38 sec lap
100cc regular valve Yamaha 34 sec lap
100cc open 33 sec lap
125cc 31.5 sec lap
125cc shifter 30.5

The longer the lap, the bigger the difference. Add 2x the displacement and I think the times could drop even more.....I did the 100cc open and like I said was 5 seconds/lap faster the the SCCA Sports car guys (not the same track)

[MrSlow]

Originally posted by Russ Brooks


JForce as an ex-Kart driver I can tell you that SuperKarts (both 250cc single WC Rotax & Twin WC Rotax) are comparble and sometimes quicker than a F1 car around some circuits.

For example Martin Hines (who was a friend and colleague) 250cc Twin WC Rotax World Champion, and, some would say, the fastest ever Kart champion of all time, held the lap record of Brands Hatch race circuit in England for a couple of years.

This is significant for 2 reasons. First off the record is now held by Johnny Herbert (achieved on a public charity day in his (then) Jaguar F1 car - but it took him 3 years to break it. He attempted the record on 3 seperate occasions and didn't achieve it until the 3rd attempt.

Secondly the circuit used was the full F1 race circuit covering more than 2 miles and with some straights allowing for 95% throttle in top gear in the F1 car (and obviously 100% throttle in the Kart).

Now, I am not saying this is true for a lot of circuits - especially the high speed ones - but the twisty circuits like Oulton Park, Hungaroring and Interlagos (where the acceleration at high altitude far exceeds that of an F1 car) it would be comparable.

Twin Rotax SuperKarts will do 175mph and will achieve 0 - 100 mph in 4 seconds. With the 0 - 60 times approaching under 2 seconds. They can break and corner far quicker than a F1 car at low to medium speeds and with the downforce (and Wing Effect Margins being smaller) they can be breathtaking even at high speeds.

So, it is not too far into the realms of imagination that his statement about the relative grid position of 6th could be indeed true..

As a matter of statistics Martin Hines lap times around Silverstone in his hey day were about 8 seconds off of the then F1 times.

Does that help?

I saw an "inkart" video from a SuperKart race and it is really scary stuff. Those little things simply ignore the laws of nature. I think I would dare to drive a F1 car at 80% of it's capacity, but those SuperKarts would choke in my trembling hands. It is a bit strange why they are almost never televised, I think it would be a great show.

[MrSlow]

SuperKarts at Laguna Seca

It looks scarier on a smaller track, but enjoy...

It was not Eddie Lawson above, but:

"People look at these Super Karts and think they are cute little toys, but they haul butt around here," according to Lawson, who should know. The four-time world champion (1984, '86, '88, '89) set the Super Kart lap record at Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca in 2003 - 1 minute, 23.875 seconds, an average speed of 100.864 mph. (As a point of reference, Troy Bayliss turned the fastest lap on a motorcycle at Laguna Seca when he road his Ducati around the circuit in 1 minute, 24.833 seconds during the 2002 World Superbike Championship event.)

1.24 is about 10 seconds faster than the guy in the video.

[rfus]

Originally posted by jimm


Not sure about anywhere but the states but here there is a HUGE difference in lap times between Kart classes. The fast karts can be alot quicker than the slow ones.

As an example from what I remember at roadrace I went to every year ~1/2 mile course

True stock 4 cycle Briggs 41 sec lap
Alcohol Stock Briggs 38 sec lap
100cc regular valve Yamaha 34 sec lap
100cc open 33 sec lap
125cc 31.5 sec lap
125cc shifter 30.5

The longer the lap, the bigger the difference. Add 2x the displacement and I think the times could drop even more.....I did the 100cc open and like I said was 5 seconds/lap faster the the SCCA Sports car guys (not the same track)

yeah I realise that different classes can produce wildly different lap times. Im just talking about last years Melbourne GP although I wasn't there on thursday (it could have been on then) I can't remember any other kart races other than the one I mentioned above

[Lontano]

Originally posted by MrSlow
SuperKarts at Laguna Seca

It looks scarier on a smaller track, but enjoy...

It was not Eddie Lawson above, but:


1.24 is about 10 seconds faster than the guy in the video.

that looks insane... and also highlights what we need to have more overtaking in F1: wider tracks!

[Al.]

Last May, 2005 CIK-FIA EUROPEAN SUPERKART CHAMPIONSHIP visited Hockenheim.
The pole position lap was 1m44.980sec in the Division 1 (250cc twin - I think) link.
Last year Kimi Raikkonen set a pole lap (with race fuel) of 1m14.320sec.
I don't know the weather details, but the first qualifying session for the karts saw a fastest time of over 2m2secs, which would imply a wet circuit, so times that are over 15secs quicker (second session) I would think are close to, if not representative of a 'dry time.'
I guess I expected them to be closer, but I'm sure it does depend on the circuit and how much the F1 car is able to stetch it's proverbial legs.

[zac510]

1:45 would be a respectable time on the old Hock circuit.

They used to race the SuperKarts as a support event at the old Adelaide GP. I can't recall any times though, sorry.

[JForce]

Some interesting info guys, and I guess it highlights the power to weight ratio point, along with the grip ratio.

As a side question, are people happy that a "mere" kart is faster than an F1 car? Shouldn't an F1 car be able to kick the ass of everything around a track? Aren't they supposed to be the ultimate expression of no compromises for simple speed? Or is the safety aspect now too great? And the restrictive regs?

[HoldenRT]

Sadly the tracks aren't able to cope with such speeds that would be required for F1 to be the fastest of anything on a race track.

It's sad, sometimes I wish they would focus more on changing the way tracks themselves are layed out, and develop new technologies for protecting the crowd and walls from impacts.

Rather then one tyre rules and V8 engines or 10% of the current aero.

But yeah, that'd be much more expensive. It's sad though because in 20 years time that cars could be slower then they are now, despite the radical advances in technologies.

There seems to be a ceiling they hit in 2004, and now they can't go past that point. And NASCAR, MotoGP and karts and all these other forms of racing are only going to catch up more and more.

[MrSlow]

Originally posted by JForce
As a side question, are people happy that a "mere" kart is faster than an F1 car? Shouldn't an F1 car be able to kick the ass of everything around a track? Aren't they supposed to be the ultimate expression of no compromises for simple speed? Or is the safety aspect now too great? And the restrictive regs?

It isn't. It can be faster in certain situations, a certain tracks, but that is another thing. A SuperKart would maybe stand a chance in Monaco, but it would be left in the dust on all other tracks on the F1 calendar.

[baddog]

Originally posted by JForce
Some interesting info guys, and I guess it highlights the power to weight ratio point, along with the grip ratio.

As a side question, are people happy that a "mere" kart is faster than an F1 car? Shouldn't an F1 car be able to kick the ass of everything around a track? Aren't they supposed to be the ultimate expression of no compromises for simple speed? Or is the safety aspect now too great? And the restrictive regs?

It isnt, Im sorry but I call bullshit too, the 8-10 second gap on circuits that suit the kart sounds plausible thoug, they are very fast indeed.

Shaun

[Brian O Flaherty]

Having been a marshall at a track where BOSS (ex-F1) cars and karts regularly race, I can say that the karts and the BOSS cars are the quickest thing around the full Mondello track and their times are comparable with each other.

I wouldn't say 6th place is out of the question for an unrestricted kart on a twisty track at all.

[Gemini]

Originally posted by JForce
Some interesting info guys, and I guess it highlights the power to weight ratio point, along with the grip ratio.

As a side question, are people happy that a "mere" kart is faster than an F1 car? Shouldn't an F1 car be able to kick the ass of everything around a track? Aren't they supposed to be the ultimate expression of no compromises for simple speed? Or is the safety aspect now too great? And the restrictive regs?

Well, what the whole story tought me is that I should really start loosing weight

Just out of curiosity what is the power output and weight (inl. driver) of those little creatures...?

[Al.]

Originally posted by Gemini


Well, what the whole story tought me is that I should really start loosing weight

Just out of curiosity what is the power output and weight (inl. driver) of those little creatures...?

Superkart.org

Division 1 (the twins)
yellow plates black numbers
Engines; Rotax 256,Yamaha TZ250,Honda RS250,SGM 250, red dot, PFE.
Minimum weight with driver 215kg's
use of carbon fibre bodywork and exotic materials allowed
Horsepower 70-100BHP (depends who you are talking to!)
Cost# £4000-£20,000

[jimm]

Originally posted by MrSlow
SuperKarts at Laguna Seca

It looks scarier on a smaller track, but enjoy...

It was not Eddie Lawson above, but:


1.24 is about 10 seconds faster than the guy in the video.

Looks cool


Someone needs to introduce the driver to an apex though.....

[MrSlow]

Originally posted by jimm

Someone needs to introduce the driver to an apex though.....

Laguna Seca's apexes are not always where you expect them to be

I think it is also quite bumpy at places and sometimes it might pay to go a bit wide. On the other hand, Eddie Lawson was, as I said, 10 seconds quicker than that (and 15 secs slower than the Champ cars), so it might just be that they simply could not find them

[Fortymark]

Superkarts are damn cool.
Imagine the 2006 F1 grid fighting it out on those instead... I would love to see that!

Here´s an telemetry image of a lap of Hockenheim with an Superkart.

They seem to be incredible fast at some circuits but not too impressive on others.
At Magny Cour they weren´t that fast either.
But the power/weight ratio isn´t that great (compaired to an F1). The car and driver must be 210 kg for the twin cylinders and if they have about 100 hp for an top kart it´s about 2 kg for every horsepower.

[Shiftin]

Ik knew karts were fast but I am reading this thread like...

Great info... Thanks

[amiga1]

Just as a side note - would a kart have the same range as an F1 car ?

After all its one thing being quick over a lap - but could they lap for say 100km ?

[MilanF1]

So the only two comparable lap times (in this thread) come from Laguna Seca circuit and Hockenheim. At the first circuit the kart is as fast as superbike what means usually about 25s slower than F1 and at the second one it is 30s slower. Are there any other comparisons? With numbers please. If not the title has no justification.

[anbeck]

It's a long time ago, but I have read that the fastest qualification-lap of a superkart-race at the Adelaide GP-circuit in 94 or 95 would have been enough for a top spot at the F1 GP of the same year. 4th, 6th, I'm not sure. Unfortunately I'm 1000 miles from home (literally), so I cannot check for details....

[black magic]

the karts seen as aussie gp are charity/celebrity runs and as such are miles behind an f1 car.

f1 clearly substantially quicker than any bike, largely due to braking isn't it

could imagine super kart would be quick round the mickey mouse circuits. on any thing worth the name f1 would kill a super kart IMHO.

[alfa1]

Originally posted by JForce
... last year, a support race for the Australian F1 GP was a 250cc unrestricted Kart race...

He was wrong on all counts. They arent unrestricted, they arent 250cc, and they certainly wouldnt get 6th place on the grid.
The article on this page is a copy of what was in last years race programme guide:
http://cars.grandpri..._kart_challenge

“They’re a normal hire kart chassis with a 175cc Yamaha engine that’s tuned to produce around 75-80km/h top speed,” Craig says.

Now lets see... Albert Park is 5.3km in length, so at 80km/h we would need about 4 minutes per lap.
From personal experience, that sounds about right. Rfus and Exar Kun would probably agree.

[AyePirate]

The sensation of speed in these karts must be off the chart though, out in the open with your ass a couple of inches off of the ground.

[Milt]

Originally posted by jimm

Someone needs to introduce the driver to an apex though.....

Hi jimm,
Apex / Smapex, who really gives a ****... the dude passed six other carts by the the first turn!
And did it ON THE OUTSIDE!
And another one on the first lap, again on the outside, going down through the corkscrew!

Looks like one Helluvalot of fun!


And to MrSlow, I thank you very, VERY, much for that.
It was a real treat!

[jimm]

Originally posted by Milt
Hi jimm,
Apex / Smapex, who really gives a ****... the dude passed six other carts by the the first turn!
And did it ON THE OUTSIDE!
And another one on the first lap, again on the outside, going down through the corkscrew!

Looks like one Helluvalot of fun!


And to MrSlow, I thank you very, VERY, much for that.
It was a real treat!

Just shows he can negotiate the traffic when every one is bottled up at the start....Notice how he could never catch the fast guys and how many of those positions he gave up. The one guy he fought with for most of the race pulled away from him unless he was held up. The one time he got by, he blew the entry and had to wait for the power at the next corner and gave the position back.


You can run like that against the mid-packers but not the front runners.

Having said that, it could be that some of the corners require an odd line....However, it did not look like he was that consistant with the his lines in general. I know it is different when you are fighting for position than when you are by your self, I was commenting when he was by himself.

No big deal, it is most likely just a club race anyway

[skinnylizard]

i had no idea karts were this fast?

this is sick.

[boostpressure]

damn straight it is. I had no idea they could be that fast either

great thread JForce.

[V10 Fireworks]

Originally posted by JForce
As a side question, are people happy that a "mere" kart is faster than an F1 car? Shouldn't an F1 car be able to kick the ass of everything around a track?

They're too damn slow in slow corners aren't they!?

F1 cars are only barely faster than Matt Neal's Honda Integra or a NASCAR at the middle of a slow to very slow corner aren't they? Damned physics!

[DaleCooper]

Originally posted by black magic


f1 clearly substantially quicker than any bike, largely due to braking isn't it

not just braking, around the whole turn, remember, bikes have little to no downforce. Traction from the tyres is also generally greater for an F1 car

[MrSlow]

Originally posted by DaleCooper


not just braking, around the whole turn, remember, bikes have little to no downforce. Traction from the tyres is also generally greater for an F1 car

Yes. The traction area for a bike, rear:

U
----------------------------------------------


A car:

|_| |_|
-------------------------

[HP]

Originally posted by DaleCooper


not just braking, around the whole turn, remember, bikes have little to no downforce. Traction from the tyres is also generally greater for an F1 car

Yes, but bikes and karts are smaller.

Bikes produce most of their downforce at the front, instead at the rear. However bikes do lean inside a turn, and thus get faster through a turn than you can with a car having the same wheelbase. (Bikes are lighter so that compensates for the narrower contact area. Plus you can drift without losing time... actually its faster drifting through a corner)

[Paolo]

These Superkarts seem fast.
And seem to have no driver protection.
What happens when they have an accident ?
Is the driver normally thrown out to slide on himself as in bikes (did not see safety belts) or he stays in the kart most of times ?
And what's the injury toll ?

[MrSlow]

They also lack deformation zones. An accident can not be healthy.

[zac510]

The racing line through a corner in one of these karts would be a lot 'straighter' so even with less grip you could carry more speed (proportionately). Loews would become a mid-speed corner

[daSilvium]

Drivers not belted in for these karts - they are slung low in hi-sided seats.
Generally when you have an accident you stay in the kart unless it rolls.

Problem with racing a kart at a 'proper' race circuit is that you have gravel traps and that's the sort of thing that will make a kart dig in and roll. Generally when it rolls you do come out and usually are more or less ok, but these Superkarts go really very quick, 250cc ones up to 160mph and you do NOT want to have a big accident at that speed. That is when you want to be bolted in with as much bodywork around you as you can.

So yes there's no bodywork deformation - they're just built very strong, so if you go off-track on a fast corner then it's never going to be great..

@zac510, i don't think the racing line for these machines would be really any different to an F1 car. OK F1 cars are longer and wider, so there may be some tight chicanes that a kart could just almost straightline whereas a bigger car would have to jink left and right, but i doubt it's much different.

The driver in the video seemed ok and nailed most people on hard-braking. Either he was very good on the brakes or a lot of the other drivers didn't have much clue how hard you can brake in these machines.
However though he did catch most of them on the brakes, he often overdid it and missed the apex due to going in too hot and understeering a bit wide.

Great video though. I liked the corkscrew shots.

cheers

ps. check out the overtake manoeuvre at about time = 4mins 30seconds when he goes round the outside of the yellow kart. I'm not sure the yellow kart driver even KNEW he was there and our man with the camera almost got shoved straight off the circuit. Must have raised his pulse a bit (say from 170 to 175bpm !!).
I was trying to understand his occasional comments. Hard to tell. He sounded English. Must've have a lavalier mic taped to the inside of his visor, visor full-closed to stop wind-noise which would be huge at those speeds. Probably had a bullet-type lightweight helmet cam which would have been wired into DV camcorder bolted low-down on the chassis i'd think.

pps. At 12:07 he was saying "no mistakes... no mistakes" to himself. Nobody near in front of him so i think he saw someone very close in his mirrors and was trying to talk himself into keeping it neat til the end of the race. Final thing (obvious i know) is that its F***ing tiring doing that believe me. G-force really starts to take it out of you after a while. You're snugged in tight but at the end of a longish race you do start to make errors as you just suffer muscle fatigue in your arms, shoulders, back and neck. Credit to the F1 guys just for staying on-it for a whole race.
Longest stint i eve did was 1hour 40minutes non-stop at a race in Dubai. 96degree Fahrenheit, full gear, balaclava, everything. You feel quite nauseous and close to vomiting when you get out.

[MattPete]

Originally posted by MrSlow
SuperKarts at Laguna Seca

It looks scarier on a smaller track, but enjoy...

It was not Eddie Lawson above, but:


1.24 is about 10 seconds faster than the guy in the video.

the CART Champcar pole in 2000 was 1:07.722 seconds, set by Castroneves.

[mp4]

If you get a chance, watch "Faster".
It's the MotoGP documentary released a few years ago.
It has a segment with Eddie Lawson and Wayne Rainey (sp?) battling it out at Laguna on 250 shifter Karts. Good stuff